| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
Absolutely bang on Matt! Let's see the pinnacle of two wheeled circuit racing left to the skill of the rider and the ability of the machine. After all, no matter who's using what make of tyre, a race series deserves better than to be decided by a variation in tyre contact patches. Control tyres have worked in Super Bike. Moto GP was floored this year by tyre manufacturer. There are two championships per season - riders championship, and manufacturers championship. There is not a third for tyre manufacturers. What more proof is needed for a control tyre in Moto GP? Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on October 12, 2007) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think Chris Vermulen said the main disadvantage of the single tire rule. The tire development stopped in WSBK, when they switched to Pireli. This affects everybody, including us, everyday riders. Remember how tires was 5 years ago?? People forget that it was not Bridgestones that won the '08 title. It was Ducati's superiority and Stoner's riding. #2 and #3 in the '08 rider's standings, are Michelin riders. It would not be fair to either Bridgestone or Michelin, if any of them are forced to leave the series. They have invested a lot of money and efford. Especially Bridgestone that they now are getting success. Rossi and Pedrosa should concentrate on the development of the M1 and RCV, instead of 'bitching'. It was not Michelin's fault that the RCV and M1 was clearly down 20Hp than the Ducati, till the middle of the Championship. It was not Michelin's fault that Rossi chose the wrong tire in Turkey and Germany, or that his bike broke down in San Marino. If organizers think (I do not agree)that Michelin is left behind, they should let them catch up next year. | ||
| Rocketman |
Michelin riders placed highly because of their riders and manufacturers efforts, and the other Brigestone runners not in the same league as the Michelin shod riders and teams. The Michelin finishing order in itself is very telling when one looks at the bigger picture. Stoner and Ducati might well be brilliant, but the Moto GP title deciding factor would be much more telling if Stoner and Ducati had been running Michelin too. Would they then have won the title? One thing's for certain though. The racing and the title chase would have been much closer and much more exciting. As for tyre development for road use, I don't see that there would be much if any hindrance to tyre development. There are other manufacturers making great road tyres, perhaps from development in other race series and their own testing on and off the track, but these manufacturers are not in Moto GP. Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
I think Chris Vermulen said the main disadvantage of the single tire rule. The tire development stopped in WSBK, when they switched to Pireli. This affects everybody, including us, everyday riders. Tyre development didn't stop with the introduction of the single tyre rule. In fact Pirelli developed their race tyres in leaps and bounds over the course of two seasons to go from also rans to competitive with Dunlop & Michelin. Last time Vermulen rode on the Pirellis they were a long way back from where they are now. All the other firms also continue to develop their road tyres even without any input in MotoGP or even Superbike competition. Metzeler have never entered any world class superbike racing but make some superb club racing road tyres. If you think Rossi & Pedrosa have been bitching then you obviously haven't been listening outside of Casey Stoner's motorhome lately. He hasn't stopped moaning about other riders all year, most of whom would hand him is arse in a bucket if they raced on equal terms. Stoner may be a talented young man, but better than Rossi, Hayden or Pedrosa? I don't think so. Maybe next year will tell when teh playing field is level again  | ||
| Blake |
Rossi wins on vastly superior Michelin tires and he is some kind of wunderkindracer. Stoner does the same but on Bridgestone tires and he is over-rated? Good grief. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ah come on Blake. No one's taking anything away from Stoner, but let's face it, Rossi with a little bit more luck this season still could have won it, and that would have been on rubbish Michelin's. That's the difference everyone who knows something about motorcycle racing recognises. Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
Don't forget that year after year all the "experts" rate the Honda RCV as a far superior motorcycle to the Yamaha YZF-M1, yet for the first two years Rossi rode for Yamaha he regularly cleaned Honda's clocks. Even last year he won far more races than Nicky Hayden (the eventual winner) but suffered enough DNFs to put the championship out of his reach. Even so, he nearly won it at the end anyway. This year every Michelin rider complained that their tires had gone off before the end of the race and they just didn't have any grip left. Although Rossi is a magician on worn tires, there are some obstacles even HE can't overcome (like your tires are shot, and your opponents tires are still gripping like new rubber). | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It is always great to talk to Rossi fans. I find it really good. OK, Michelin are crap?? Hayden got the title last year on Michelin. Rossi was on Michelin last year, he had the chance (actually a 2-3 points advantage) in the last race to get the title, he blew it big time. So, M1 was really crap compared to the RCV?? How did he get those 2 titles in a row then?? OK, I know, for Rossi hyper-fans it is his superior riding. But if his riding is superior, why he did not get the title this year?? His superior hyper-riding should have compensated for the Michelin 'disadvantage'. For me it would be really sad if Michelin is forced to leave motoGP. They are No1 moto tire manufacturer, and I really enjoy their products. Fitting Pilot Powers made my XB work the best ever! Bridgestone's success is due to Casey Stoners riding the GP7. Why is it so hard to accept? James Toseland said ' I wonder what Casey would do if he had Michelin on his Ducati'. He might have been 70 points clear of the second. But racing is about result, not theories and guesses. There are rumours that just Rossi and Pedrosa will switch to Bridgestone next year, while their teamates will run Michelin. I wish this is true, so that Rossi fans will get happy. | ||
| Rocketman |
His superior hyper-riding should have compensated for the Michelin 'disadvantage'. Hey, as much as I like Rossi and his riding prowess, I wouldn't consider myself a fan of his. As much as I like Ducatis, and love my 916, I'm not into Ducati winning the title by having superior tyres. What this season did for Rossi was show how much better than everyone else he is by scoring as well as he did given the handicap from his 2007 Michelin's lack of performance. What Bridgestone did for this season was flatter a lot of riders. Stoner included. For me the stars of the season were Randy De Puniet, Anthony West, John Hopkins and to some extent Sylvain Guintoli. But of course, I'm just catching glimpses of these guys on TV and reading the race reports sometimes. What is telling though is that these guys, with the exception of Guintoli, are all Bridgestone shod. So as great as these guys have ridden I'd have to question if they'd have been able to do so had they not have been on Bridgestones, and I think the answer is no they wouldn't. Such therefore begs the question if Bridgestones helped these guys do so well is the same not true of Stoner? I think we all know the answer whether we choose to accept it or not. Rocket | ||
| Jaimec |
Vagelis, Sometimes I think your reading comprehension skills are a bit deficient...  I'll say one thing, you'll interpret it as something completely different and then argue that point rather than the one I was making. Before I bang my head into the wall any more, let me get my Colin Edwards replica helmet on first... | ||
| Jaimec |
Rocket, I think the fact that the results lately have been "a bunch of Bridgestone guys plus Rossi and Pedrosa" pretty much says it all. If Rossi and Pedrosa weren't who they are it would be ALL Bridgestone. | ||
| Rocketman |
Jaime, I couldn't agree more. I'd like to add to my Bridgestone comments...... Hopkins is good regardless, and I sung his praises last season too. Can't say I see his team mate Vermulen as good as, but he too did better this season, on Bridgestone! Rocket | ||
| Benm2 |
I am so digging the Suzuki paint scheme for this weekend. | ||
| Bads1 |
Barry Sheene replica paint....too cool.  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"I'll say one thing, you'll interpret it as something completely different and then argue that point rather than the one I was making. " I was not making comments, just for your post. There are others taking part in this discussion, as well. I found your comment for the M1-RCV correct, but disagree for your opinion for this year's tire issue. I was pointing out, what is 'usual' for most Rossi fans to believe for their idol's abilities : 1. M1 was much worse than the RSV, but Rossi's abilities gave them 2 titles. 2. Hayden was not any good last year, it was Rossi's bad lack that cost him the title. 3. Bridgestones are superior this year, that is why Ducati got the title. 4.Rossi with Bridgestones would have beaten Stoner easily. Of course, fans look at an issue, the way they want it, and they draw their own conlcusions. What about the Philip Island race ?? I know, most people will say that Bridgestones gave Ducati the 1-2. But, Stoner was 8sec clear from the next Bridgestone rider, who was also riding a factory GP7. What about the rest of the Kawa, Suzuki, Gresini, Pramac on the Bridgestones ?? Why this 'superior' tire did not help them to score higher ?? What about the M1 being so slow down the straight ?? Why Melandri retired with a Bridgestone rear tire issue ?? Once again Stoner had a great race, and Ducati proved why the got the '08 title. Hayden looked as the only rider to match Stoner's performance today, and he was on Michelin. Unfortunately he retired. I thought that he would have stayed with Stoner to the end. Were his Michelin crap ?? It was a shame for HRC to have a blown engine ! If someone 1-2 years ago, would have said that the Japs would suffer blown engines, while Ducati would be very reliable, he would have made people laughing. Times are changing. | ||
| Rocketman |
1. M1 was much worse than the RSV, but Rossi's abilities gave them 2 titles. Such was a well recorded fact as Yamaha developed their M1 very much under the scrutiny of anyone caring to follow the Moto GP merry go round. To call it any other way is argumentative as there would be no other reason to. 2. Hayden was not any good last year, it was Rossi's bad lack that cost him the title. I wouldn't say that portrays an accurate description of Hayden's racing last season. The facts were more to do with Hayden not finishing as high as he might have to secure a title. Ultimately Hayden got lucky through Rossi's bad luck, which resulted in Hayden getting the title. Hayden almost didn't, and wouldn't have had Rossi been just a handful of points luckier than he was. 3. Bridgestones are superior this year, that is why Ducati got the title. That is certainly one of two major contributory factors in Stoner's and Ducatis success this season. Such is not a matter of opinion. The scientifically proven facts show that Michelin tyres have not been competitive enough to challenge the Bridgestone track performance all season. 4.Rossi with Bridgestones would have beaten Stoner easily. This is a matter of opinion, but I'm sure you know such would be fact had Rossi been on Bridgestone. Everyone else seems to think so. Even Stoner himself, which is why he's telling the moto press and TV interviewers he's fiercely opposed to control tyres in Moto GP. Stoner says his reason, "we might as well have control bikes too". Yeah right oh Casey. In which case I doubt Stoner would be anything special. Frankly, I haven't personally observed anything from my sofa this season that suggests to me Stoner is anymore special than most the rest of the field. Rossi on the other hand never fails to show us that, even when he finishes 3rd, 13th or not at all. Not a Rossi fan. Just wishing we could have seen a world champion in the making fight for such high accolades! Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Well it would appear that Rossi will be on Bridgestone tyres next year, having secured a deal to be the only factory Yamaha rider on the Japanese tyres. His team mate Jorge Lorenzo and the Tech3 guys will be running on Michelin again. This is a brave and smart move by Rossi, not just to get onto the Bridgestone rubber, but to make it impossible for Lorenzo to copy his settings on the bike! The downside is that Rossi will have the job of developing the M1 for the Bridgestone rubber on his own, although I think he has pretty much done that since arriving at Yamaha anyway. Unfortunately this will mean that Toseland & Edwards won't get to benefit from Rossi's set up skills next year either. As for Stoner, he has won the series this year due to a number of factors, not just his tyres. He has finished every race in the points, and unusually for him hasn't fallen off at all in a race this year. Whether this is down to pure talent or the incredibly advanced electronics package on the Ducati is a debatable point. Ducati also took a big risk in developing the 2008 bike to give maximum power rather than better torque like the rest of the field did (so much for the 'torque is better than bhp' argument that rages here occasionally. Next year the other teams will be on the case a lot quicker, Michelin will have caught up in the tyre stakes, and Stoner will have to contend with a very hungry Marco Melandri as his team mate. There are also some very competitive guys coming in to MotoGP next year such as Lorenzo, Toseland & Dovizioso. For the first time ever I am impatient for this season to end, just so we can start next season | ||
| Jaimec |
You forget that Edwards is generally considered the second best development rider on the grid (second only to Rossi). Rossi and Edwards shared a lot of information together. Be interesting to see how 2008 works out. With Edwards not only on another team, but on different tires? So far I haven't seen anything that confirms this Rossi/Bridgestone story. It just seems to be rumor right now. It doesn't make any sense to me... | ||
| Jaimec |
A GREAT article on the whole "Control Tire" nonsense: http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/40988/ If the article is true, then the tire manufacturers have already agreed to the one change I felt was necessary: Lock down the tire choices AFTER the first practice, not BEFORE!! They've also agreed to up the limit to 40 tires but (as Vagelis said earlier this year) the original 31 tire allotment should be more than enough (once the riders know more about the track to make an educated choice). | ||
| Trojan |
The Rossi/Bridgestone story was circulating since before the Australian GP, but seemed to be a done deal with all concerned avoiding the issue when asked about it. It also seems that the control tyre threat has been dealt with and will not happen for 2008. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think Rossi is really nervous about matching Stoner's performance for next year. He feels that Stoner is his main rival, and he is not sure right now how to beat him. He does not worry about Pedrosa much. Pedrosa is so weak on the brakes, it is easy to pass him during a fight. Rossi feels that he sould have the same tires as Stoner. From this perspective it makes sence. I am sure Rossi knows really well how important tires are in motoGP. So far he was getting the best rubber from Michelin. Thanks to the current tire rules the game is even for everyone. Of course, there are many ways to improve the current rules. More tires & selection on Friday, is a positive step. I think Rossi is playing with fire. If he gets the Bridgestones, there is no real proof that they are better than Michelin at this point. Maybe it is his riding style and the M1 that wastes the tires. HRC had no shreaded tires this year. Even if it is true that Michelin is better that Bridges, what if Michelin work really hard during the off-season, and get a better tire than Bridgestone next year ? His excuse for next year is already ready : "What can I do with -40Hp compared to Stoner?? Let me ride a Ducati, and I will show them" So if Rossi & Pedrosa switch to Bridgestones, the best Michelin rider will be Hayden. It is better to see Hayden get the title next year, than those...... I have a feeling that most people are talking about Rossi, Stoner, Pedrosa and the have forgot about Hayden. For me, Hayden is doing better than Pedrosa. He managed to beat Pedrosa in many occassions. But he used all the good lack he had, last year. This year he is the most unlucky rider. Crashed at Laguna (possible winner), crashed in Misano. But his performance at Philip Island was another indication of how fast he can be. The only thing he is missing right now is a confidence boost. Just look at Capirex. I wish he gets a win in either Valencia or Malaisia Also listening to Hayden's interviews, he is not looking for excuses, or simply blaming HRC or Michelin. For other riders it is very easy to blame it on other factors than themselves. Rossi, Pedrosa, Melandri have already made their excuses. My respect for Nicky is growing. | ||
| Jaimec |
Personally, if the Rossi/Bridgestone story is true, I think he's shooting himself in the foot. He's got YEARS of experience working with Michelin and their people. He's going to have to build up a whole new level of cooperation with an entirely new crew (a crew who will likely feel more loyal to Ducati/Stoner than Yamaha/Rossi). He'll also have to get used to the characteristics of the tires and their properties and how they work on the M1 (something Michelin has TONS of data, but Bridgestone has nothing). I'm pretty sure Michelin will be working their French butts off during the off-season (like as if they aren't doing that now) to close the gap with Bridgestone. Yamaha has already responded with a new engine to address the horsepower deficiencies (Rossi had the fastest lap in yesterdays race, you'll remember). Next year all three tire companies (assuming Dunlop remains in the fray somehow) will have this year's data to look upon. I think the racing next year will be a lot closer than it was this year. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
'He'll also have to get used to the characteristics of the tires and their properties and how they work on the M1 (something Michelin has TONS of data, but Bridgestone has nothing).' Normaly I would agree with this comment. But I found very odd this year that Stoner was fast on th GP7 from the 1st test. And he had to change bike&tires. Maybe for extremely talented riders like Stoner, Rossi and few others, this change is not an issue. Maybe it is more important for the new 'component', either bike or tire, to be better than the one he was using before, and he will find the way to get to its limit in no time. If Rossi and Pedrosa goes to Bridgestone, it will be a really good thing for the motoGP. 1. There will be no more debate for the tires deciding the title. 2.Having different tires on the same team will get the tire war more intense and probably development will go further. 3.I think Hayden and Toseland will have more chances for good performance, since I really think that Michelin has more experience and potential for the top motoGP tire A good comment/thought from the article in Speedtv was that "maybe Dorna let people think that they were close to Bridgestone for the control tire, just to make Michelin change their "no bid" policy". Bridgetone has no manufacturing capability for prototype tire for the entire motoGP temas. Michelin, on the other hand, has. So maybe it was just a move to "shake" Michelin. | ||
| Trojan |
If he gets the Bridgestones, there is no real proof that they are better than Michelin at this point. Maybe it is his riding style and the M1 that wastes the tires. HRC had no shreaded tires this year. We have obviously been watching diferent championships this year. Take a look at the 2007 results and, apart from Rossi & Pedrosa, there are no Michelin runners in the same time zone as the Bridgestone runners. Rossi & Pedrosa are exceptional talents that have made the best of a bad job as far as the tyres are conderned this year. After all, take a look at Edwards & Hayden, they have hardly been spectacular this season. HRC have been shredding tyres all year and complaining of grip issues. Pedrosa had to settle for 4th this weekend because his tyres gave up. The advantage that the Bridgestone tyres have is that they work better through a much wider temperature range than the Michelins. They also seem to be less critical and more forgiving when it comes to rider input. I would bet money that Rossi will not suffer if he changes to Bridgestone for 2008, and his setup skills will see him fighting at the front again. | ||
| Jaimec |
Vagelis, Stoner may've changed tire brands this year, but Ducati did not. Bridgestone had years of data acquisition working on the 990cc Ducati before the 800cc, plus Casey and his team could consult with Loris and his team. Rossi on Bridgestone would be Bridgestone on a bike with which no one has any experience, with no one they could consult with. That's the point I was trying to make... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Take a look at the 2007 results and, apart from Rossi & Pedrosa, there are no Michelin runners in the same time zone as the Bridgestone runners." OK here is my shot : Take a look at the 2007 results and, only Stoner was phenomenal on the Bridges. The rest Bridges rider had their ups and downs, mostly down to Vermuelen 'wet' performance. Of course, Ducati fans and Rossi fans watch the motoGP from different angles. | ||
| Ceejay |
"Of course, Ducati fans and Rossi fans watch the motoGP from different angles." And some don't watch it at all, because the racing seems to be over by the fifth lap. More than a few times the camera was stuck on the 2-3-4-5th battle than who was running in the front. I'm a casual observer. I really like to see the bikes ridden in that manner, and enjoy listening to the personalities who race them, and I wish they would get into the tech that goes into them(one of the reasons I like Buell's they put it all out there for everyone to see-for the most part) I haven't turned on those races since mid summer, because as soon as I settle in to watch one, it's for the most part over. If it is indeed the tire rule causing the problem, then it doesn't seem too hard a fix, are the tire companies pouring in a bunch of money so that they can supply tires? I would like to see a limit on traction control, as I think that is killing the sport. It may be good for hamfists such as myself, but show me-the fan that you have the ability to ride the bike-not a computer controlling it for you... | ||
| Jaimec |
But the rest of the Bridgestone riders are also higher up in the standings this year than they were at the same time last year. In previous years it wasn't JUST Rossi and Pedrosa along with a bunch of guys on Bridgestones. It was more like Capirossi and a bunch of guys on Michelins. THAT'S the difference. For some strange reason, whatever has been helping all of the other Bridgestone runners hasn't been working out so well for Loris, and that's a shame. I would've loved to have seen him up there in the top three fighting for the championship. I don't know how well he'll do on a Suzuki next year... | ||
| Rocketman |
Years ago there were three faces in F1 that stood head and shoulders above every other driver. Prost, Mansell and Senna. For a decade they produced between them probably the greatest era in F1 we'll ever see. Then it seemed a different era was upon F1 and a new talent came along. Michael Schumacher might not have forged his career against the three greats of the moder era in F1, but he is regarded as unquestionably the best of his generation such was his talent - recognised by everyone. Whether you're a fan of Rossi or not, he is without question in a league of his own, and has been since the day he started racing. He has dominated every formula he has ridden in, and whilst others have come close at times, like Biaggi, and others have given him a run for his money, like Gibernau, none thus far have proven themselves consistent enough in the long or short run to be considered equal or better talent that Rossi has shown race in race out season after season. He is the Schumacher of his era, which is unquestionable. Rossi has and does make mistakes, but it's his relentless pursuit no matter the obstacles the befall him that help cement his reputation which separates him from all the rest. Losing to Hayden last season, and to Stoner this season, has done nothing to make anyone see Rossi as any easier a talent to beat. In fact the opposite is true, and has been since he arrived, that all still see Rossi as the benchmark. Whatever he rides with or on next season, I'm in no doubt even if he loses again, we will still see him as the benchmark. Just like Schumacher in F1, Rossi is proving the greatest of his generation. Disappointingly Schumacher's retirement has yet again robbed F1 of a great driver battle, such is the arrival of Hamilton in F1 this season. Moto GP shows no sign of producing a 'Hamilton' but it is in fear of becoming just as boring as F1 if they continue to allow tyres to decide the outcome of each race and the season in full. Stoner is no Hamilton. Nor is anyone else. Until they find one, Rossi will remain the one to beat, but to beat him is not necessarily to better him. For that you need to have the rider skill Rossi consistently produces, and that's something none of us have seen yet despite several other world champions made. Rocket - not really a Rossi fan. | ||
| Rocketman |
Rossi was not running the new engine at the Philip Island race. Rumour in MCN, and across the WWW, Rossi on Bridgestone next season. Jeremy Burgess to Suzi Perry, grid walkabout live on BBC - somewhat ambiguous admission that they'll be on Michelin's next season. Rocket |
