| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
Some people never listen, but one thing is for sure, they are not at the Buell factory. | ||
| Davegess |
I am sure all of us (Buell fans), would agree to pay an extra $1000 to the retail price I have to pull a "Court" and say this an inaccurate statement. EVERY 100 price increase reduces the sales numbers by some amount. A $1000 would result in a serious decrease. Buyers are very price sensitive. Buell and Harley, I am sure, have very good numbers on this sort of thing. I do know for a fact that Buell works very hard to make sure belts break as they get paid more under warranty by the belt company for each failure than they make from selling the bike. That is why they always point us in the wrong direction on this. If they could get every belt to break Erik could buy his own island and retire. NOT! Buell watches repair and warranty numbers very closely, I suspect there is a person in East Troy who can tell you how many tail light bulbs have burned out. They do not want belt to break and are doing everything they can to prevent yours from breaking. Anything else would be foolish and Mrs. Buell didn't raise no fools! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Wouldn't "impact" just be a very sudden application of force? Every part that could "impact" a belt on a loaded suspension would still have to break the belt by applying enough load to "stretch" the belt hard enough to snap it. I suspect that amount of force (regardless if it is applied gradually or suddenly) would exceed the strength of a bearing before it would exceed the strength of the belt... but I am neither a mechanical engineer nor a materials specialist. | ||
| P_squared |
Here's a thought...and I'm trying to inject HUMOR here, not asking to be flogged in public... The factory of Elves decided they didn't need a spring tensioner based on their testing & experience. The European contingent belive it is a necessity. Now I'm not tryin 2 peeve anyone here, but might I suggest the following? Let's wait until the Production bikes hit, see how it goes, and then regroup from there? If the Elves say it works, who am I to disagree, until I have a cause too? Conversely, I haven't heard of a large contingent of US XB owners saying their belts couldv'e been "saved" for want of a spring tensioner. | ||
| Jlnance |
The factory of Elves decided they didn't need a spring tensioner based on their testing & experience. They designed it to be a fixed tensioner in order to get rid of drive lash. It's one of the selling points of the bike and something Buell is proud of. Thats one reason these discussions get heated. | ||
| Spike |
So, aside from the engineers at Buell, does anyone have any real data to go with these claims? If the belt is getting as tight as some claim, it should be pretty easy to observe/feel the belt getting tighter. Unbolting the shock is one option, but so is backing off the spring preload and having a friend lift the rear of the bike to unload the suspension, then sit on the bike to load the suspension. The belt should offer almost zero stretch, so any change in length of the belt path should be observable through either the belt becoming extremely tight or a noticeable amount of slack. | ||
| Trojan |
Some people never listen, but one thing is for sure, they are not at the Buell factory. Being at the factory is not a guarantee of being right, and I find it very arrogant to assume so. The Buell factory have made some major mistakes over the years resulting in the the tarnishing of Buells reputation that has even now not fully recovered. Believe it or not, there are very skilled engineers and designers outside of the hallowed halls of Buellville, and they can and have come up with solutions to problems in the past and continue to do so. For example, take a look at the current XB inner airbox design. The factory have now incorporated ideas first seen in the aftermarket sector with the additional vents. As for examinining every belt failure microscopically? We broke a 2007 belt in May last year with less than 600 miles on it. No stone damage, just delaminated and snapped. The bike had never seen the road and had been used purely on track, so no sudden bumps or other factors to take into account. I sent the belt back to Buell UK for examination and have never received even a simple polite acknowledgement that it has been received (although I know that somebody signed for it!). Nobody has let me know why they think the belt broke, or if there was a fault with it. If the belt is getting as tight as some claim, it should be pretty easy to observe/feel the belt getting tighter. Unbolting the shock is one option, but so is backing off the spring preload and having a friend lift the rear of the bike to unload the suspension, then sit on the bike to load the suspension. The belt should offer almost zero stretch, so any change in length of the belt path should be observable through either the belt becoming extremely tight or a noticeable amount of slack. It is difficult to see with the naked eye simply because the belt is drum tight to start with. It can be scientifically measured and was extensively done so when the sprung tensioner was developed. If the factory don't want to incorporate the sprung tensioner then that is great from my point of view as I will continue to sell them  | ||
| Rfischer |
Snake oil folks, snake oil. There are still folks selling it. In this day and age, it's called "The Aftermarket". And before a certain aftermarket vendor attempts to torch me, let me quickly add that I do not argue that incremental performance improvements cannot be found by the aftermarket, but they will ALWAYS at the expense of some other aspect of the total design package the O.E.M. mfr. has put in production. The aftermarket vendor has a much lower bar to heave itself over and can afford to have a "one-track mind" about its product offerings. Anyway, I am more than a little perplexed at the refusal of self-described Buell fans and owners to accept the rational and direct answer to their [clearly rhetorical] questions that have been given by Anony. You asked; he answered. If you really don't like [and you have no technical cred. to dispute], the answer[s], buy a Honda. Jeesh..!* *My cred: 40 yrs. in the power sports industry as dealer, distributor, mfr. | ||
| Court |
I. long ago, cried snake oil . . . toward this stuff. I concur that there is some entertaining stuff in the aftermarket. But, no one in the aftermarket has the stake the OEM group does. Anybody here ever sued the maker of an aftermarket pipe because it didn't perform as represented. No one . . NO ONE . . has a greater interest in your bike running well, performing it's best and being safe, thant the manufacturer. . be it Honda or Buell. Court | ||
| Court |
Cred: Construction worker | ||
| Spatten1 |
If you really don't like [and you have no technical cred. to dispute], the answer[s], buy a Honda. That is total BS. Maybe you have no technical cred., but you have no idea about the rest of the board members. I'd say Matt is about a rational as they come. I'd also say that if you've had a Buell component fail multiple times, then you've modified it and it held up to abuse, then you have enough cred to state your opinion. I've worked in R&D for a manufacturer. If you think engineers at any of the manufacturers do not make mistakes and do not stick to principles to prove a point beyond all rationality, I'd love to know the factory you've been working with. | ||
| Trojan |
I give up. If you think that the OEM stuff is superior to Ohlins, Akrapovic and a host of other QUALITY aftermarket parts then there is no point in even trying to argue with you. OEM parts are made to fit a price bracket and to meet a wide range of uses, owners and regulations. period. For example: OEM shocks & suspension have to cope with a huge variation in rider weight and bike use, so are built to cover as wide a range as possible and to a price spec requested by the manufacturer. From a performance perspective they are inferior in just about every respect to a decent aftermarket alternative. The same argument can be made for exhausts, wheels, controls and of course belt tensioners. Manufacturers would of course have us believe that they only fit the very best of everything to their bikes, and that they of course have the best interest of the customer as their only motivation. If you believe that then it is a lost cause. Anyway, I am more than a little perplexed at the refusal of self-described Buell fans and owners to accept the rational and direct answer to their [clearly rhetorical] questions that have been given by Anony. You asked; he answered. If you really don't like [and you have no technical cred. to dispute], the answer[s], buy a Honda. So we should accept the answer given by Anony at face value just because he is allegedly a factory employee? Maybe we should accept what you say at face value because you are a manufacturer? Yet you cannot accept at face value what an experienced aftermarket producer and reseller has to say, despite having the benefit of years of experience and customer feedback to draw upon? Dual standards methinks. I concur that there is some entertaining stuff in the aftermarket. But, no one in the aftermarket has the stake the OEM group does. Anybody here ever sued the maker of an aftermarket pipe because it didn't perform as represented. No one . . NO ONE . . has a greater interest in your bike running well, performing it's best and being safe, thant the manufacturer. . be it Honda or Buell. I think using the stock Buell exhaust pipe is a very bad example Court. I know of plenty of people here in the UK that are more than unhappy with the mild steel OEM example, and more than a few have threatened to sue Buell over the lack of quality. Why do you think most people change the pipe at the first opportunity? The bottom line is this. Aftermarket parts are available from a huge variety of sources and vendors. If the customer believes that the OEM part is either not good enough or quite simply fancies a change then it is his choice. If it doesn't perfom to his satisfaction then he has exactly the same recourse as he does with OEM parts. No snake oil. No excuses. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Regarding my last comment: I could have sat in awe of the designer of my X1 airbox, but instead scrapped it, because there was no way to make it quit leaking dirty air with the factory component. Not possible. I also could let my XB throttle cable bind at full left lock, like all the ones in the showroom do. Instead I re-routed it. I'm staying away from chain conversion, etc. to keep this one simple. | ||
| Zac4mac |
wow... First to the last post, I don't know what bike you're looking at that has a mild steel pipe, my '03 XB9R's head pipe was titanium. OEM. I snapped two drive belts on my 9R in less than 5k miles. I was convinced that the OEM tensioner was too tight and I wanted to talk to a ME @ Buell about a redesign, possibly a sprung tensioner. After talking to Rob @ Cust Svc, I realized that I had caused the failures not the tensioner. The first belt broke jagged, more of a lateral rip. I had replaced a rear tire without removing the belt. I just moved the belt aside and removed the wheel. Reverse for the reinstall. Cause and effect confirmed. The second belt lasted about a thousand miles and broke clean along a cleat. That belt was compromised when I removed it from its box and stuffed it in the saddlebags of my FXWG. Again, confirmed cause and effect. When I admitted my culpability, Rob was amazed and said for my honesty, he'd comp me the third belt. Treating the belt as advised by Buell, that last belt has over 17k miles and still pulling strong. I agree with Court et al... snake oil Tech cred - failure analysis for major medical device designer/maufacturer for 10 years. 9/10 of classes for a BS in Physics. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I'd say Matt is about a rational as they come. No one ever disputed that, it's not the topic of conversation and creates the illusion that you have a non-topical agenda. This is a discussion. Holding a different opinion from someone else is that alone, not a veiled inference that they are wrong, stupid or "rational". Matt makes a good point about OEM having to hit a "middle ground". He also missed a mark by suggesting someone alluded to the Buell suspension being "better" than Ohlins . . . I'm not reading that anywhere. I have before me the invoice from the first Buell I bought over 20 years ago. The sales price is $17,687.00 and the bike had some dandy stuff on it. In today's dollars that'd be about $35,000. The reality is that elasticity of demand plays huge role. Simply put it's the marginal increase/decrease in sales with an associated increase/decrease in cost. Motorcycles seem to have a huge barrier at $10,000. One of the reasons the 1125r will be a sales success is the price. Think, and I'd welcome a show of hands from those who have paid $20,000 for a motorcycle, about it for a minute. Here's the best example (I'm stealing it from a construction estimating class I teach) . . . at $1 you could sell and infinite number of Buells. At $1,000,000 you'd sell zero. Those two endpoints of the continuum are fixed. Between those points there lies a subset in the Venn diagram that I label "reasonable" . . . i.e. a Buell could be sold between say $5,000 and $20,000. I assign a probability to each price. Let's say at $9000 it's 75% and at $14,000 it's 15%. Then I multiply some numbers to find the greatest marginal revenue (would you rather sell 1 thing and make a $100 profit or 10 and make a $101 profit? . . you can see the ancillary arguments that enter) and attempt to isolate where marginal revenue and marginal cost intersect. Buell is not in the business of entertaining you and providing the world's "BEST" motorcycle. They are in the business of SELLING motorcycles, and supporting them, in the best possible fashion AT a price that will attract sufficient numbers to make the model work. After market folks are different and I'd bet folks like Matt seldom carry, nor need for instance a $50M general liability policy. If Matt produced something or Al Lighton sold something and it resulted in a fatality, it's a shame. . . not much more. Buell, as a subsidiary of one of the cash richest companies in America, operates in a decidedly different environment. So now toss into that "reasonable price that will sell" mix that it must be as "safe" and liability free (I have a complete library of legal treatises on "Design Liability - How much is good enough?" if anyone is interested). Oh yes. . . one other thing . . . Buell must make their products in full compliance with the thousands of pages of pages of government mandated regs in a host of countries. . . .you did know Buell actually made like 15 different Ulysses, right? Matt, and I am simply using him as a hypothetical example, is never going to get hit with (nor pay) a $100,000 fine if he sells a set of aftermarket turn signals in which the filaments are separated by less than 17-1/2" nor less than 27" from the roadway surface. The aftermarket is a neat place. In fact, it's a lot like the internet in that you can pretty well do and say what you want with no consequences. Some of you are aware that some companies actually sell protective gear claiming a CE label that they do not actually have. . . . In the OEM market the theory of strict liability applies . . in the aftermarket it's pretty much caveat emptor and the Wild West. Engineers do indeed make mistakes. I bought a Chevrolet Vega GT the first year they were made, you'll not need to convince me. But I'd be interested in seeing how many hundreds of thousands most the aftermarket folks spend on testing, research and analysis. Frankly, we live in a 3SD world and chat in a 5-9's world. Court P.S. - that quality reference is s standard deviations (99.97%) and the 5-9's is a very high-end process (I build UPS systems in large buildings like this) that are 99.999% reliable. I have a client who has determined that is costs them $27,000,000 per second to be without power. They had no problem with the concept of paying $200,000,000 for a very sophisticated back-up (7X redundant) power system. "Perfect" and it's pursuit become expensive. Do a search for 5 9's and you can learn more | ||
| Spatten1 |
Court, all is true. I'm not bagging on Buell, I'm just saying that no engineer, or any other person or organization is perfect. The best effort can usually be improved by someone with a different perspective or background, or, like you said, different fiscal and regulatory restrictions. All factories make imperfect machines. Period. Buell is not an exception to that rule. I think the conflict arises on this board because some members assume that engineers work in a perfect black and white world where decisions are Vulcan logic. Real people and real organizations don't work that way. A machine with thousands of parts can't be perfect, and someone focusing one one or two of those parts can usually improve them, at some price point. | ||
| Jaimec |
(Raising my hand): I paid $22,000 out the door in 1999 for my K1200LTC! That price included the passenger floor boards, intercom and anti-theft alarm (the nylon/leather bag liners and tank bag were thrown in for free). | ||
| Spatten1 |
Court: Did you know Ducati 916 headlights were illegal until 1997 or so? NHTSA left'em alone due to low volume. Remind me to tell you the story sometime... | ||
| Ponti1 |
...engineers work in a perfect black and white world where decisions are Vulcan logic... OMG!!! The Elves are Vulcan?!?!?! That explains a TON!!!  | ||
| Spatten1 |
Same ears. Dead give away. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
It would be very interesting ( to me at least ) to see a video of that Free Spirits modified belt tensioner in action on a bumpy road. If it showed that spring compressing and relaxing it certainly would convince me that it was reacting to variations in belt tension. Of course, I'd also want to know at what point the idler pulley on the modified tensioner is at the "exact" position the stock idler resides. Is it when the spring is full relaxed, or a some partial compression of the spring? It does make a difference otherwise you'd be comparing apples to oranges in my estimation. On a person note, being an engineer, I know that engineers are on staff to provide continuous improvement to whatever product they are assigned. In other words, any product can be further improved if only incrementally. That's also how biological evolution seems to work. I love Buell engineering, but it has not gone un-noticed that my ULY had some recalls, the 07' had some incremental improvements, and the 08' had some big changes. I'm certain the 09' ULY will somehow be even better. I'd personally like an automatic primary chain tensioner from the factory just like Harley big twins now have. Of course I'm sure, way back when, they claimed it wasn't necessary but it's currently stock issue and even retrofits to EVO models. | ||
| Rfischer |
Scott, I think I have adequate cred. to offer an opinion. Cf. www.highland.se Also, see the pic attached to my bio. And, while you're there, try to figure out how one gets a dry belt-drive primary on a Sportster motor.. Cool yer jets my friend. Its not a case of how much I know about the other board members, but rather how much you know about me. Opinion is just that, but it isn't any more or less valid for calling it "BS" or making veiled derogatory comments about its author. And with that I bid fond adieu to this thread. Cheerio! | ||
| Spatten1 |
Cool yer jets my friend. Its not a case of how much I know about the other board members, but rather how much you know about me. Opinion is just that, but it isn't any more or less valid for calling it "BS" or making veiled derogatory comments about its author. I didn't realize it was all about you, when you questioned the credibility of the other members on the thread. Now I do. You don't think referring to dedicated Buell supporters like Matt as "snake oil" salesmen is a veiled derogotory remark? I didn't realize your supremecy and I humbly apologize for my ineptitude and lack of respect. | ||
| Spatten1 |
By the way, I have worked in no manufacturing organization where the technicians in the field did not have valuable input. Engineers that were willing to learn from the guys seeing the problems, and fixing them on the fly, always seemed to build better products, and evolve improvements more quickly. When engineers were too proud to stoop to the level of accepting input from the less educated technicians that had much more hands on experience and volume, they were never as successful. We need the guys with the math and education, as well as the practical guys that see the inevitable product shortcomings in the field and often solve the problem. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I speak from experience about Engineers. I'm sure that Buell manufacturing hires a percentage right out of Engineering college. Hey, they gotta get their feet wet somewhere, right? Engineering college gives a student the fundamentals and certainly exercises the brain to the limit. It's OJT (on-the-job-training) that gives an engineer street cred. He/she observes and hopefully is assigned a mentor who guides the youngster into being a valuable asset. It takes time but eventually the men-tee graduates to mentor. Some are more creative than others, others more book smart, and still others are in over their heads. The moral of this story is, engineers are not all the same caliber. The ones that think they know it all are the ones that dig in to defend poor engineering when better alternatives are presented. It called the Not Invented Here syndrome. If they didn't think of it first then it isn't any good (mostly because it makes the engineer look bad) . (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on October 02, 2007) | ||
| Bigdog_tim |
There are three things that you can count on always being on this site: 1) Really, really helpful advice 2) Really, really great people 3) Really, really divergent opinions So - I have to add my $.02 (inflation adjusted): I spent a little time with Buell engineers at Laguna. I was VERY impressed with how candid they were about how they approached the problem (in this case, rear suspension), the approaches they considered, what process they used to vet each of the many approaches considered and so on. As a software engineer, I recognized a LOT of the process they use - and somehow that made me feel more comfortable (it shouldn't - my company has produced some nasty bugs in its history). Anyway - one thing I will bet on: Buell will continue to invest in continuous improvement. They will look long and hard to continue to evolve the products they make. They will continue listening to their customers - about what they like and what they don't like. Not everyone will get a personal response - but they will hear us. Whew. I feel so much better. Ok - who else needs the soap box?  | ||
| Anonymous |
Trojan, Let me know when the first Acrapovic XB header and muffler hits 50,000 miles, OK? And the first time one passes international sound homologation, too. Different engineering for different reasons should be recognized as such. | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan, Let me know when the first Acrapovic XB header and muffler hits 50,000 miles, OK? And the first time one passes international sound homologation, too. Different engineering for different reasons should be recognized as such. Anony, Show me a stock XB muffler that has covered 50,000 miles in a European climate without rusting away? Most stock mufflers are removed before they reach 5,000 miles over here and the bikes spend the rest of their lives running aftermarket pipes with no problems. Akrapovic don't actually make a header for the XB unfortunately. But if they did you can be darned sure it would last at least 50,000 miles (have you ever examined the quality of Akrapovic headers?). They also produce mufflers and full systems that pass stringent European noise tests and are fully E marked and road legal throughout Europe (something the Buell race kit exhaust never was). Akrapovic, HP, Remus etc are in the business of making top quality performance exhausts and all offer a 2 year warranty. I appreciate that OEM parts have to pass strict noise & emissions tests in addition to having to accomodate a huge range of riders, riding styles and conditions, so are sometimes compromised in their design & execution. However, please don't denigrate top quality aftermarket parts just because they were not made at the Buell factory. I think I have adequate cred. to offer an opinion. Cf. www.highland.se Also, see the pic attached to my bio. And, while you're there, try to figure out how one gets a dry belt-drive primary on a Sportster motor.. Mr Fischer, I don't doubt your engineering expertise, although I think you'll find that you are not the only person who can make a dry primary for a Sportster/Buell motor. We ran a Free Spirits belt drive dry primary on our race bike all year last year (the same people who make the sprung tensioner by the way) with success, and there is also a German company whose name escapes me that has been making Sportster dry primary kits for some time. P.S. Don't let anony see those Yamaha brakes on your S1, or you'll end up in the 'persona non grata' club with us ;)  (Message edited by trojan on October 03, 2007) | ||
| Court |
I just watched the video of Erik in Paris this week . . . . I think he was trying to say "I can't wait for my royalty checks from Honda". Are not these the same folks who were laughing at the exhaust placement in 1997? Time and tide . . .  | ||
| Reepicheep |
There are not shortage of arrogant people in any profession, engineers included. But if you go to and engineer explaining you are going to push a rope, expect the same response as if you went to an accountant and told them your business plan calls for loosing 10% on every sale, but making it up in volume. Trojan, that instrumentation data accumulated for that spring loaded tensioner ought to be published. I can't think of a better defense for the "snake oil" claims. No need to argue about it, just show the strain gauge results for the unmodified stock assembly under some real world scenarios. |
