| Author | Message | ||
     Jlkkwhite |
My 99 s3 has been running ruff,finally found my spark plug wires arcing from the spark plug boots to the base of the spark plugs.Replaced wires three times along with new spark plugs.Different brand plugs and heat ranges each time, no help.I have also replaced the coil with same results.Could the voltage regulator cause this?I have also checked the chassis ground and all fuse connections,cleaned and dialectric greased them all. Im scratching my head..HELP !!!!! | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
That's really odd. I doubt that a bad voltage regulator could do something that strange. Did you use the suppression type plugs/wires with built in resistance? | ||
| Iamike |
Jon, Nope, the voltage regulator controls the current and hence the voltage that is presented to the battery. My guess is that there is some sort of contamination but you say that you have replaced the plugs and wires? Mine did that after several days of riding in the rain. All I had to do was to wipe off the porcelain on the plugs the greased them when I got home. Haven't had a problem since then. Is it possible that you have the wrong grease? Maybe it's conducting the spark across the insulator. Otherwise you have one strong coil. | ||
| Sparky |
You should make sure that the spark plug boots make a tight seal on the plug insulator. And it doesn't hurt to silicone bond the plug wires to the boots so that they make a watertight seal and don't change position. Regarding the dielectric grease, the first step is to thoroughly clean the inside of the plug boots with rubbing alcohol or something that does not leave a residue. Next, clean the spark plug insulators. Then take a small gob of dielectric grease from a new tube and apply it with a toothpick (non-metallic is the idea here) to the inside of the boots, smearing it evenly around near the opening. More is not better and don't put any outside the boots where it will attract dirt and contaminants. You shouldn't have any more arc-over problems with this method. Are you using stock spark plug wires and coil or high performance stuff? I've had excellent results with the Screaming Eagle coil and Jacobs Electronics Energy Core plug wires on my S1 and S3. | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
Thanks for all your posts.As far as plug wires I have replaced them with the stock buell ones as well as some I have made up.I havent tried to silicone bond them but have cleaned them thoroughly with alcohol and then applied dielectric grease.I thought maybe I had too much on the plugs causing this so I cleaned them again , no help. Im using ngk dpr8ea-9 plugs.Im going to check the plug wire resistance again today.Plug wires are stock. I am running a race ecm.I may install the old to see what happens. THANX AGAIAN!!! | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
Dont install the other ecm. The spark comes from the coil. I am really interested in how a race ecm could cause the coil to hyper explode the spark. What we are talking about is a leak..... (Message edited by mmmi_grad on September 18, 2007) | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
By any chance are you putting anything on the threads of the spark plugs? Your spark is looking for easiest path to ground. How long does it take for this phenomenon to happen after you have redone everything? If you are greasing the threads with something non-conductive found the problem....  Charlie | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
I did put a small amount of anti-seize on the threads of the spark plugs a while back but have since changed the plugs out twice,good point I will clean them up today and see what happens.I can only see it at night. My manual says the resistance should be 1812-4375 ohms for the front wire and 4750-11,230 ohms for the rear. Is this correct ?? | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
The resistance in the plug wires will effect your quality of spark, but I don't see it causing this problem. I feel like your problem is some where within the plug or plug boot area. What kind of gap are you running on the plugs? Have you tried a set of wires with no grease(dry boot)? Something is making it easier for the spark to run around the plug than fire the gap. Charlie | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
Im running a .040 plug gap. The last new plug wires from buell I tried dry, same thing.I did clean the plugs and plug bore,which were pretty dirty with old anti-seize and such. I will check it out tonight on my way home when its dark. As of now it seems to be running a little better.Thanks for your input ... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Do you suppose that the anti-seize was acting as an insulator? I never used anything on my plugs since I usually change them out every 10,000 miles and they don't have time to rust in. | ||
| Sparky |
I think you are on the right track with cleaning things up, thus ensuring a better electrical ground path. If the anti-seize does not contain metallic particles, it could act as an insulator. But the spark plug gasket should provide a solid electrical ground independent of the threads. On the other hand, if the plug seats and threads are dirty, then all bets are off. There is high temp anti-seize stuff that contains copper particles. Maybe that would help? | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
Cleaned up the plugs and bores , no help.The anti-seize I was using was the high temp kind with copper in it.Either way it didnt help.I have reinstalled the original plugs , I think 6r12.If this doesnt do it I will try some new plug wires again. | ||
| Djkaplan |
6r12's came stock on the bike that year, but were replaced by the colder heat range 10r12. It is quite an unusual problem your are having. Sounds almost like there is too much voltage... | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Jon, This thing is baffling. Check one thing for me. Make sure you have the BK/W wire on the back term of the coil. And make sure your battery has the right polarity.Neg. to grd. Both plugs fire at the same time, but one is firing neg. and the other pos. If the polarity is reversed I'm not sure what the symptoms would be. Use a meter to make sure your hot wires are pos......Charlie | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
If he has the battery reversed, things would have smoked up. So I don't think that's the deal. Is the coil supposed to have a grounded centertap? Or is the coil like in my old sportster: floating with respect to ground with both plugs in series. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Oh wait! S3 has the same brain as my X1. Lemme get my book.... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
OK essentially the coil is two coils in one Case with a common +12 input.(center pin in three prong connector) The ECU then grounds out one primary winding at a time to pop spark plug. If the wiring harness is compromised between the two primaries, both plugs would fire at the same time like my old sportster. The engine would run. I'm thinking this may also overdrive the coil into putting out more voltage than it is supposed to. The two wires you should be looking at are colored: Blue+Orange and Yellow/Blue Also, if those wires are shorting to ground, like against the top of the engine? they would drop an arc at a random time. I would suggest popping off the tank and looking over the wires. Happy hunting! | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Nate, I didn't realize the X1&S3's were single fire ignitions. All I've got is a Cyclone manual and they are dual fire. Never get too old to learn something new. Maybe you can pin this thing down for him.I have never seen this trouble before that didn't have something to do with the boot or the plug....... Charlie | ||
| Sparky |
JKW, you said you are seeing this arcing at night? I submit that most engines will produce a certain amount of electrical discharge phenomenon from spark plug cables that can be seen when it's dark, moreso if the cables are old, not quite as much when they are new. That doesn't necessarily mean they're bad. Just bring your finger tip close to the cable when the engine's idling and watch if sparks/corona jump to it. You don't get shocked when you do this, or do you? OK, if you don't want to offer your finger as a science experiment, try squirting a stream of water from the garden hose on the spark plugs and see if it affects the idling engine. If you have properly waterproofed your ignition, nothing improper should happen. If it dies however, you didn't waterproof it good enough. Now, if the water experiment proves that your engine idles fine when watered down, then, I'll betcha, the rough running you're having a problem with is not due to "arcing" from the plug wires. | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
I ran out all the wires between the battery and the coil.The only thing I could find was a small voltage drop ( 0.5v) between the main circuit breaker and the three pin connector at the coil.I cleaned up all the connectors and it seemed to help.Now I only have a small difference, maybe 0.10v.I did notice with the ngk plugs when running it with the spark plug boots off (for trouble shooting) that the plugs were sparking around where the insulator and the metal flats of the plugs are.I wonder if I got some bad plugs??? Just installed some champion 908,s. Ill let you know what i find.. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
No. The discontinuity I was talking about before was in the insulation, not the conductor. You have to visually look at the wires under the tank. | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
Yes I understood that.And i did check all the wires under the tank both visually and for resistance.I am going to double check everything one more time if i find nothing else.Thanx again!! | ||
| Oldog |
the ignition coil does not say "Tesla" on it any where does it? running and ducking  | ||
| Jjjoutside |
>the ignition coil does not say "Tesla" on it any where does it? You're killin' me! LOL... I agree that there is a significant piece of this puzzle missing somewhere. Based on what's been posted, there is no good explanation for his problem. There has to be something else eluding us. Just for grins... I fired my M2 up in the dark... no arcing at all, nothing making it into my fingers as I touched wires. Even took a mister bottle of water and kept a fine mist going around the plugs and no change. Quite baffling really... The resolution of this could be very interesting. JJJ | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
Im out of ideas..I checked all the wiring again today with a meter between the ecm and the coil.Everything checks ok.But when I run the bike in the pitch black I can still see it arcing from the plug boots to the base of the plug.And also around where the plug ceramic body meets the base of the plugs.Its got to be either the coil which has been replaced already with another used one or some bad plug wires which are brand new from buell. I dont know!!! I know it sounds crazy but I can hear it missing and sometimes it even quits running.Maybe I just got a bad batch of plug wires although this is the third set with the same results.. | ||
| Jjjoutside |
Okay... now you have me interested...  Just to eliminate the possibility of the motor floating somewhere above 0V, try taking one jumper cable and attach one end to the neg side of the battery and the other end clamped, preferably, around the "nut" of the spark plug. If your cable won't fit there, just clamp onto metal as close to the plug hole as possible. While you may read close to 0 ohms ringing out motor ground with a multitmeter, high voltage spikes bring impedance into play and you can't test that with a multimeter. Report the results and let us keep pondering. This is either a red herring (as Sparky suggested) or we are overlooking something electrically. If the coil, wires, and plugs are now known good, then we need to ask why the spark is jumping through rubber or ceramic and finding a path to 'ground' other than the plug electrode. The primary reason would be because the path outside of the plug is less resistive than the path across the electrode. This would point to incorrect gap, badly fouled plugs, dirty exterior on plugs, or perhaps a fuel/air mixture that was somehow not conducive to the transfer of energy across the electrode... not sure what that would be, but if we assume the components you replaced are working correctly, then these are the things that come into consideration. Another interesting test would be to hang a spark plug in free air (perhaps using the jumper cable to ground it and fire the bike up on one cylinder. Observe the plug in free air to see if it still arcs around the jumper cable and plug body or whether it only arcs at the electrode. A REALLY outside possibility is that the arcs you are seeing is energy being transferred back to the coil somehow after the plug fired. This would again imply an impedance issue and make me look very carefully at grounds... perhaps even to the point of considering a cracked neg post on the battery, but that would be a VERY long shot. Connecting a car battery via jumper cables would eliminate that as a possibility. I realize these are not pointedly helpful suggestions, but I'm hoping for a revelation somewhere in this to point us in the right direction... There is also Sparky's assertion that this is not necessarily abnormal and the real problem lies elsewhere... a worthwhile thought even though my own test in pitch black didn't show up any arcing (but my coil, wires, and plugs are all brand new and I'm running an M2 with whatever the differences are in ignition systems). JJJ | ||
| Sparky |
I suspect your plug cables and/or plug boots are contaminated with something that's causing insulation breakdown. Maybe it's age -- even if these parts are new to you from the dealer, they could be what, up to 8 years old? I'm not saying that they are, but nevertheless, make sure they are clean and there's no cracks in them. Are you making absolutely sure that the spark plug cables make metal to metal contact with the spark plug terminals? What about the boots on those new cables. Do they make an interference fit around the spark plug insulators or is there any kind of air gap that would allow sparks an unrestricted path to engine ground? There should be no air gap. Did you try the water test? | ||
| Jlkkwhite |
I even removed the spark plug boots to confirm they were not conductive and ran it.The same results applied.And the plug cables snap on to the plug terminals so I know I have good contact.I also cleaned them very well.Im going to try grounding directly to the plugs tonight.It could be the used coil I put on it,however the original coil did the same thing.Its hard to believe I have two bad coils...But I do know Murphys Law !!! | ||
| Sparky |
If you have a multimeter, you can put it on the highest ohms scale and determine the insulation resistance characteristics of the spark plug cables themselves, the boots separately and the spark plugs too. There should be no less than infinite ohms for all these tests. - With a meter lead on the terminal of the cable, run the other lead along the outside of the insulation; it should read infinity at all places. - For the boots, put the leads on the inside and outside surfaces in a few places; infinity there also. - For the plugs, one lead on the plug terminal and the other on the engine; yep, should be infinity. Do the water spray test. JJJ's passed with stock equip., mine passed with aftermarket equip. If these "arcs" were actually conducting high voltage spark current, it would die with the water test and we can go forward from there. What's the weather like where you're at, relatively dry or humid? |
