| Author | Message | ||
     Ebear |
Got the new RoadRacingWorld at Laguna(hasn't arrived yet in the mail)and they REALLY liked the 1125R on the street! However it would seem Chris Ulrich is under the impression that this is a race bike or something and was very upset that Buell was USING THEM to get a baseline setup for the bike.I just don't think Chris gets it yet. The article in Cycle News was more informational but had some things to bitch about.Seems everyone is complaining about mileage.....my Tuono used to get 35mpg when I bought it , but after the third service it dropped to 30!!!!!!It's definately not an AirCooled gas sipper! | ||
| Regkittrelle |
I think you're being unfair to Chris; he did his job. Also, as an accomplished racer and a very good test rider I thought his evaluation more than fair. If Buell had not wanted this motorcycle evaluated as he did they, 1) would not have invited him and 2)they would not have held this test at one of the most technically demanding race tracks in the world. Buell was more than aware of the chance they were taking in inviting journalists with extensive racing/testing backgrounds. The good side of this is that they received more significant info in a week than they could obtain by their own devices over many months. The downside is that, well, the downside will appear in print. In reading your comment I can't help but wonder what you thought Chris should have written. Criticism of moto media's lack of objectivity is a common topic yet, when something like Chris's evaluation appears... you diss it. The fact is, Chris' evaluation is probably the best I've read, to date. Note his take on the "slipper" function; he TESTED it. You can't have it both ways. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the manufacturers to release motorcycles that meet the very high standards of many of the scribes. That the tested motorcycles may not have been "ready for prime time" was amply noted throughout the article. Articles such as this really let you know what a motorcycle is all about. With Gougis on the street and Ulrich on the track they were able to draw notable distinctions between the two venues. Again, if this is not what Buell wanted, then they should NOT have held the track portion. Re the gas mileage: I don't know what the "real" number should be. I do know, however, that many of the street riders rode the livin' stink out of the bikes. The route... I laid it out... was a continual on/off throttle experience that did not favor good mpg numbers. Burnies, stoppies and wheelies were also the order of the day. Ebear... You, like myself want this motorcycle to succeed, and I'm sure it will. However, it must do so on its merits, not on wimp-ass, touchy-feely articles by unqualified writers. Chris is anything but that. Don't shoot the messenger. And, no....'cause somebody will ask... Chris is not a friend of mine. | ||
| Davegess |
I thought Chris' article more than fair. A good read. I have no worries about what Buell did; Reg is right on the amount of feedback and it is right now being translated into production specs. EVERYTHING people said or wrote has been noted and if Buell thinks it is appropriate they are acting on it. When the production bikes are released to the press two things will happen. First is they will be the absolute best STREET bike Buell can make and second they will be so much more dialed in than these protos that the writers will be very impressed and will likely say so. I also like that owner's are riding the bikes at track days. I have to think that these reviews will not only be overwhelming positive (very few can ride anywhere near these writers so they will find little to complain about) but will carry a huge amount of weight amount riders. Word of mouth is the best advertising. | ||
| Thespive |
Also, coming from a media testing background, a lot of the preproduction vehicles were obviously initial impressions. One of the most difficult parts of my job when rviewing all new vehicles is to get the most out of it during the limited time the manufacturer has set up for you, especially when you are sharing with other scribes, and in a manufacturer's closed course or route. I think you guys will see some of the complaints melt away when the production bikes hit the magazines and the journalists have a chance to live with the bike for a couple days or a week, in their own backyard, on their own routes, without the pressure of the PR team or media handlers around. Trust me, having the vehicle as your own for a few days with no one around to point anything out or scrutinize your behavior really allows you to soak in a product and give it a much more well-rounded evaluation. During initial reviews, your job is to nitpick. The follow-up reviews is where you'll see the product shine in a real world environment because you have a much better idea how the vehicle will perform in the wild and you have a different set of expectations. Driving something down your street, parking it in your garage, and driving it to work on your roads gives you a much better appreciation of the product. I can think of a handful of vehicles that I evaluated harshly on the introduction, but found how much I liked when I had it as my own for a week, but there have also been vehicles I loved during the intro, and couldn't wait to get rid of after a week, although that is less often the case. At least, that is how it is for four-wheeled vehicles, I am sure it is the same for bikes. --Sean | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Absolutely, Sean. In fact, there were a couple of instances during the week where opinions changed within a couple of hours... both ways. | ||
| Bobup |
So Reg.... Maybe you could write an article about the entire experience at Laguna...detailing the people, process and all the nitty gritty that won't show up in the print pages. Give us that first person perspective of those others that you keep hinting about. There must be a ton of material to work from. wadda ya think...an article about writing the article and the gathering of the data. bob | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Sorry, can't do. I was there on contract with Buell. To effectively do what you suggest would have properly required permission ahead of the event. Thanx for the thought, tho. | ||
| Blake |
I've not read the article yet, but if Chris Ulrich did indeed express in it that he "was very upset that Buell was USING THEM to get a baseline setup for the bike" then I agree with Eric, that would be strange. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I read the article (again) and I believe the author DID have a chip on his shoulder because Buell was using his expertise to setup the race track version of the 1125r. It is a poor article in that the "problems" the author notes are all solved via changes in bike setup, yet he makes the bold statement towards the end of the article "Frankly, the Buell 1125r left something to be desired out on then racetrack" and doesn't even hint at what he doesn't like about the 1125r's track manners. Instead, he goes on and disses buell's engineers AGAIN for using his expertise to work out some of the race-track related kinks (and having the wrong fork springs available.) The question lingers in my mind, was Ulrich really saying the 1125r itself left something to be desired or Buell's engineers left something to be desired? If it was indeed the bike, then tell us exactly what was bad--or maybe he was done giving free advice to Buell? I agree with the original poster that this racer/journalist doesn't get where Buell has come from, currently stands or where it is trying to go. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Is it possible that Buell thought the bike would be further along for this media event? Could it be that objectives changed because it was too late to cancel the event and the bike was not quite ready yet? Was the media advised that the fuel injection and suspension were still not ironed out yet when they were invited, or at a later date close to the event? | ||
| Coal400 |
I like the idea that they offered to tune and alter the bikes to suit the riders preferences. I guess all they can complain about is how they have nothing to complain about. Sounds like that dude could use some humility. | ||
| Court |
I suspect that in a mix of 75 journalists, with the accompanying egos, there will be a wide range of opinions ranging from "thanks for a great time" to "I expected and deserve to be coddled more". Having spent two years work media relations with The White House Advance Team from 1983-1985 I had some interesting brushes with media folks, many of whom made some outrageous demands. Like any group, there will be the full spectrum of opinions. I have not read the article and can't comment on Ulrich's spin. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Court, Is that the world famous White House sub shop in Atlantic City? (Message edited by spatten1 on September 19, 2007) | ||
| Jimidan |
Mixed Messages: Buell keeps telling us that this is not a race bike, yet all of the commercials I have seen are of the bike on the track. Which message does it intend to send to the consumers? If it is not a race bike with lights (the genre that much of its competition fits), then how valid are the nit-picks from racers like Chris who make their observations at levels of performance that an extremely small percentage of the purchasers will ever experience? Since most 1225Rs will never see a race track, aren't the real world aspects of street riding much more valuable to potential customers than race track set-ups, gas mileage at the track, and performance on a closed course? So, if you are not planning on racing the bike, who really cares if Chris didn't care much for the clutch at Laguna? I guess we will have to wait a few more months to get this real world street impressions. | ||
| Court |
>>>Is that the world famous White House sub shop in Atlantic City? Former life . . . prior to becoming a construction worker.   | ||
| Chadhargis |
Manufacturers have to strike a fine balance between building a bike the professional riders and journalists will like and write good reviews of, and a bike that the "average" rider can ride well and enjoy. I'm sure any of us if given the opportunity to ride a superbike or MotoGP bike would probably not enjoy it much on the street, which is where most of us ride. I have a GSX-R600 I bought for the track and it's an AWFUL bike for the street. No torque, riding position that had to come from medieval times, and a loud, buzzy engine that you have to rev to the moon to make work. On the track, it's wonderful, and I can ride the pee out of it. Conversely, my Ulysses is a great street bike, and while I've had it on the track and it did, "OK", it is clearly not a track bike. No top end power, redline is too low, and it's too heavy. The 1125R is a bit of an odd beast. It's a sportbike, no doubt. But it's not a race replica. It's a sportbike for the street. While it may work fine on the track, it wasn't designed for that environment. At least that wasn't it's primary design purpose. It has to be a daunting task to design a bike that works for all skill levels and preferences across the board. | ||
| Doerman |
After decades of reading magazine impressions of bikes and then in some cases getting the opportunity to check out the bike for myself, I have come to the conclusion that I rarely agree with journalists. They provide a service in providing information on a new product. But their conclusions are ... just that, theirs. I have my biases (strong) and they have theirs. Rarely shall the two meet. Asbjorn | ||
| Fresnobuell |
It has to be a daunting task to design a bike that works for all skill levels and preferences across the board. So true...you could throw "purposes" in there too. It may be impossible. Buell has made a wonderful effort here and should get a standing ovation for it. Besides, the other article on the 1125r (street writeup) was about as positive as I have read--maybe the contrast btw the 2 articles made the Ulrich article stand out. Nah, Ulrich still sounds like whiner to me. | ||
| Bobup |
maybe if the article had been presented track write up and then the street write up, the overall "feeling" from the article would stand out as a more positive thing. As it is street and then track, the negative feeling from CU is the last "taste" we get from reading. so, maybe it's just in the presentation of the product (the article) , not the product itself, that has a bad "taste"? my $0.02 worth bob | ||
| Rex |
he did talk about its torque, and how fun it was to spin the tires if you wanted to coming out of the curves. It was not totally what we wanted to hear, tires, springs, etc. hopefully it will be as it was talked about above. If the bikes truly change as compared to the press day, I would think the press should be impressed that Buell valued their comments and were able to make changes on the production line. REX (Message edited by rex on September 19, 2007) | ||
| Jlnance |
Mixed Messages: Buell keeps telling us that this is not a race bike, yet all of the commercials I have seen are of the bike on the track. Part of this probably stems from the fact that the bike is designed to be good at things that are illegal on the street. So while no one will be supprised that owners use them to break the law, it isn't really something that Buell can show off. | ||
| Blake |
Buell ads depict the new 1125R sport bike circulating on a race track, thus to some folks, Buell is advertising to the world that the 1125R is a racing machine? Some folks apparently have difficulty grasping the nuanced differences between reality and marketing. When exposed to certain beverage ads, do these same folks then imagine that they will be fawned over by throngs of half-naked beautiful girls if only they would drink the advertised brand of beer? Maybe they think that if they wear a certain advertised brand of shoes that they can then compete on par with NBA all-stars? People sure are funny. | ||
| Coal400 |
this explains a lot... I guess I'll return those air-Jordan's, but those girls really do appear. You must not be drinking enough. | ||
| Mcgiver |
" but those girls really do appear. You must not be drinking enough."  Brian | ||
| Spatten1 |
Yeah, I'm with Coal on that one too. | ||
| 46champ |
I havn't received my RRW yet so I can't comment on Chris Ulrich's test results. I think we can see what BMC was able to accomplish was an extensive R&D program that they paid .25 on the $ for. Since Mr. Ulrich is a professional racer he probably got a little miffed that he was used. When the production bikes do get released BMC can go back to these same media people and show them how they incorporated changes that were brought about by their unbiased scrutiny. A second set of tests will be conducted, no company could pay for that much advertising. The comparison tests will follow, the bike will be perfect or their will be hell to pay. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I read the RRW article last night and re-read it this morning. Mr. Ulrich seemed to be reasonably pleased with the bike until the end of the article. He summed up with a somewhat negative final paragraph that basically said that most of the changes they made at his request during his testing should have been made before he ever sat on the bike. Still, overall I thought his criticisms were minor and not out of line. Since Buell has some obviously VERY capable test riders on their own staff, it occurs to me they may have given Mr. Ulrich a bike that was deliberately not fine-tuned. This would allow them to see how what his suggestions (engine tuning, suspension settings, etc.) compared with what their in-house test riders found. The one thing both Mr. Ulrich and the other RRW tester mentioned that I haven't seen ANY mention of elsewhere is problems with overheating. I wonder if they both used the same bike or if there have been other instances of this. | ||
| Davegess |
46 that is a GREAT thought. Most of these journos will be very happy when "their" ideas are incorporated in production and Buell strokes their egos by telling them such. BUT the bike has to be right and I am confident it will be. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I wish you guys would stop writing "Mr. Ulrich". You are making me feel really old. Last time I saw him he was probably 15 years old, racing YSRs in Kurt Halls hand-me-down leathers with his dad watching through the chain link fence. | ||
| Reepicheep |
One tester (Motorcycle Online maybe?) talked about one bike being really hot, then switching to another that wasn't (and ran better anyway). So you can assume the worst and assume everyone at Buell is an idiot and incapable of spending a few hours reflashing the ECMs of the test bikes, or assume the best and believe that they had a lot of different bikes trying a lot of different things, and were getting very valuable feedback from not just extremely experienced testers, but also from the *exact* group that will be giving the "final exam" right before the bikes hit the showrooms. I should be so stupid. Next time I have to take a certification exam, I should: 1) Get the makers of the exam come to me 6 months before I am supposed to take the final test. 2) Ask me all the questions. 3) Tell me everything they said I got wrong, and what the right answer should have been. I'm guessing that in 6 months, I'm going to jam on the test I don't doubt there was some scrambling with last minute changes and updates to some elements, and that these changes could have been done better with more time. It would take a lot of faith for me to believe a company that has instrumented their assmbly line such that they can tell me the actual torque used in assembly of every bolt put on my 2005 bike was just "unprepared" for this type of event. | ||
| Crashm1 |
I'm with Reepicheap and I thought it was a pretty well balanced review. Chris Ulrich is a really finicky reviewer of whatever he is testing and a skilled enough rider to be able to get the bike or tires out to the edge where the flaws show up. Honestly how many of us can do that? I can't, I've put close to 10k on my RC since I got it and still haven't spun up the rear tire it took almost 20,000 to get there with the X1 and in retrospect I think I only got to about 90% of that bikes capabilities before I sold it. How many of us could get there in a couple laps and have enough brain left over to take notes? I think Buell has finally built the bike I want and I plan on test riding one as soon as I can. I have come to that conclusion in large part from this site and the RRW article. | ||
| Thespive |
How can you be upset that a manufacturer trusts you enough and values your opinion enough to gather your input on to have an effect on the outcome or production version of a important new product. Honestly, those are my favorite phone calls. Anyone here have a Jeep Commander and use that indent on top of the dash for holding things? You can thank Rick Pewe, editor of 4Wheel & Off Road for that, because he went on a development drive and suggested the change. Often we are asked to participate in program developments far in advance to suggest changes, to give feedback on calibrations, and add our thoughts and critiques early. In fact, I leave in the morning to join a major Detroit manufacturer for the next 3 days on a development drive, where we'll be driving camouflaged 2009 and 2010 prototypes. I would never be mad to be "used" as R&D, not only is it fun, but it is an honor, in my mind. --Sean | ||
| Spatten1 |
How can you be upset that a manufacturer trusts you enough and values your opinion enough to gather your input on to have an effect on the outcome or production version of a important new product. I agree, if Buell told them in advance that was the deal. Everything I've read makes it sound like they were informed of the status of the bike after arriving on-site. That the whole feedback thing was unintended, but necessary because when they arrived at the press launch the suspension and fueling was not to the point the company had origninaly intended when the journalists were invited. Did they come to the launch with the idea that they would have an aritcle to write on the new Buell? Or, did they know in advance that they would be finding significant bugs in pre-production units? I think it may be related to expectations that were set in advance. | ||
| Thespive |
Every media "long lead" I have gone to involves pre-prooduction vehicles, this is no secret to anybody, and you are always reminded of this by the mfg. Every journalist knows that their coments are being closely monitored and often easy changes are inititiated prior to production. there is a reason they have these things months in advance and it isn't just because of print lead times. --Sean |
