| Author | Message | ||
     Ferrisbuellersdayoff |
...Right?(::GULP!:  | ||
| Spatten1 |
It looks like they got away from the HD style round tube with the flat piece welded to it. Which is actually way more high tech than the HD chromed tube that has been smashed flat on the end and bent, on your $20,000 motorcycles from the Mo Co. I now appears to have a purpose made cast piece, like the rest of the modern motorcycle world. Fancy that. One more anachranism out the door! | ||
| Crusty |
That "HD chromed tube that has been smashed flat on the end and bent" is actually a solid bar, and is one of the best and most efficient kick stands out there. It won't sink into asphalt and cause your bike to fall over like a lot of more "modern" stands will. It's strong enough to take the weight of the motorcycle without bending. The reason it's still being used is because it's a superior design and it's a case of Function over Form. Sometimes the rest of the "modern motorcycle world" isn't quite as modern as their ad writers would have you think. | ||
| Spike |
Agreed. I still hate the way they allow the bike to lean forward and "hang" against the stand, but the Jiffy stand is an incredibly tough unit and will handle quite a bit of abuse. When I started working at a Harley dealer I was shocked at the way technicians and salesmen would treat the jiffy stands. It was a regular occurrence to see veteran techs push the bikes around (backwards and forward) while still on the kick stand.
A purpose made cast aluminum piece, like those found on Ducati superbikes. The XBs used a purpose made tubular steel piece, like those found on BMW, Honda, etc. If you really desire a cast steel kickstand like the ones found on "modern" motorcycles, we can probably retrofit the one from my 1982 Honda Sabre. | ||
| Spatten1 |
A solid steel tube is not as strong as a shaped piece, per mass. That is why steel buildings use I-beams instead of solid steel tubes or bars for their construction. The HD stand is shoddy engineering that just uses more materials than needed to accomplish the job, resulting in an overweight bike. It is not hard to build something durable if it is overweight. | ||
| Djkaplan |
This might turn out to be an interesting thread after all... | ||
| Spike |
Just like nearly every other cruiser stand on the planet. Calling the engineering behind the HD stand shoddy is strange because most Japanese cruiser stands feature the same design, except they lack the locking ability of the HD Jiffy stand. If HD engineering is shoddy in this area, it's even less shoddy than the Japanese engineering in this area. This is quite an odd place to try to knock HD/Buell. Kickstands aren't exactly a highlight of technological engineering, even among the Japanese. Most manufacturers are using the same solid steel type kickstands that have been around for decades. The most "advanced" designs we're seeing are the aluminum units used on Ducati superbikes and now the 1125R. Somewhere in between those two designs would be the hollow, tubular steel units found on BMWs, some Hondas, and Buell XBs. Calling the Buell kick stand an anachronism is a strange claim for two reasons: 1. The HD stand is quite contemporary compared to it's competition. 2. The Buell stand is not based on the design of the HD stand. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Of course Japanese cruisers are designed like Harleys, that is the market they are selling to, and the more it looks like a Harley the better. Buell has finally gotten up to speed with the sportbike world, and the side stand is just one example of old 1950's legacy crap that still exists on HD's and Buells. Other examples are the clutch design, clutch cable, Main bearings, tranny layout (no drive gear, stacked, etc.), primary, and just about everything else on the new bike. Out with old heavy archane crap and in with the modern world of performance motorcycles. | ||
| Bearly |
If it: A: Hold the bike up, it's good. B: Doesn't fail, it's good. C: If it's easy to operate, it's good | ||
| Spatten1 |
2. The Buell stand is not based on the design of the HD stand. No, but it is the only sport bike that I can think of without a purpose built cast stand. Welded steel tubes and stamped parts? Not optimized for weight and strength. I wouldn't use BMW as your example, they are having the same crisis as HD. They are trying as hard as they can to convince a new generation that their bikes are not overweight, oversized, and overpriced. The difference is that BMW is actually trying to address the first two of those issues. Harley has to keep doing what they do best, and use Buell to capture the current and next generation. That won't happen with HD "engineering", thus the Buell crew and Rotax. | ||
| Paintballtommy |
i agree with bearly. and i like the harley jiffy stand and how it locks. thats a really cool design. who cares if its cast alluminum or steel and overweight? as far as im concerned that market probably isnt really interested in shedding weight anyways. | ||
| Spike |
These two statements contradict each other. If the Buell design is not based on the Harley design, it cannot be anachronistic nor leftover from 1950s HD. Also, if welded steel tubes are inappropriate on sport bikes due to their weight and strength, you might want to call Ducati and let them know. I'm sure it would have been easier for Ducati to bring home all those WSB titles were they not using that 1950s anachronistic HD welded steel tube frame. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Spike- Which Ducati are you talking about? Certainly not one of the last two generations of superbikes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Don't be dissing the Harley jiffy stands! My neighbor designed the tooling for a lot of them (older models, I can't get squat out of him for future stuff, no matter how much beer I give him  ) I held several examples that were in various states of machining. Yes, they are a solid steel bar. But they were remarkably light for that. I can ask if that was deliberate or not. Low weight is not a primary design goal of a HD cruiser, other things are. And given the strength that the stand must have, it might be a false economy to build it as a hollow tube. Buell is a different story, and aside from the bolt backing out on my 05 (it was obvious there was an issue before it fell out and was an easy fix) I have no problem with the weight, structure, or design of my side stand. And I am in fact happy that they engineered it to self retract, rather then putting an unreliable side stand switch in a vulnerable location. The side stand on the 1125 was pleasing to me, not because I thought it would work any better, but because it appeared like it would work just as well, and looked really cool, and the bike was affordable. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I guess I let my anti-HD bias get the best of me. I used to want nothing more than a HD, then I started fixing bikes and got to ride some faster lighter bikes, and got hooked, back in the late 80's. A GPZ1100 got the best of me and I never wanted to look at another cruiser again. I'm happy with the Buells, but I am also very happy with each new part that is better engineered and more competitive with the rest of the world. I want to see the American bike with every detail dialed, that can compete with everyone else on a performance basis. I think we are there with the 1125, and the side stand is indicative, to me, of the changes that had to take place in the design mentality to get there. | ||
| Spike |
From the technical specs for the current 1098 listed on ducati.com: http://www.ducati.com/en/bikes/my2007/popup_tech_s pec.jhtml?modelName=SBK1098-07 "Frame Tubular steel Trellis frame in ALS 450" From the technical specs for the 2006 999 listed on ducati.com: http://www.ducati.com/bikes/my2006/popup_tech_spec .jhtml?modelName=999-06 "Frame Tubular steel trellis" From the technical specs for the 2002 998 listed on ducati.com: http://www.ducati.com/my2002/ducatiModel.jhtml?par t=chassis&modelName=998 "Frame Tubular steel trellis" | ||
| Spatten1 |
Spike, is this a frame constuction thread, or a sidestand thread? Totally different engineering concepts, different discussion, different thread. Look at the Ducati sidestands. | ||
| Paintballtommy |
i suppose if you lay your ducati down every time you park you could consider the frame a kickstand. | ||
| Djkaplan |
The new 1098 kickstand...  Gotta say... that beats the hell out of what comes on Buells. | ||
| Spike |
Sidestand. But you made the claim that the Buell kickstand is both anachronistic and a Harley design. I pointed out that it is neither, and the Harley design works quite well. You then tried to knock the construction of the stand by saying that welded tubular construction has poor weight and strength and doesn't belong on a sport bike. I pointed out that this same construction is used on WSB winning Ducati superbikes. You tried to claim that Ducati doesn't use this construction on their latest superbikes. I pointed out that Ducati claims otherwise. You are now claiming that frame construction has different engineering concepts, implying that frames do not need to be optimized for weight and strength. | ||
| Cowtown |
If Ducati uses a duck foot, maybe Buell should use a pegasus hoof.  | ||
| Spatten1 |
Spike this is the last comment, I'm done. Ducati frames are triangulated. If they were not, they would have to be huge and VERY heavy. It is a different design and a different part with a different purpose. I don't know why I ever go down this road with you. It always the same, you get off topic to prove a point with something totally irrelvant. Last time you thought a belt was good for a 100 hp final drive because it drives a 1 hp valve train on a 500hp engine. | ||
| Spike |
The only reason we ever even start down this road is because you say something completely false in the first place. If you look back at your first post in this thread, you claim that the Buell XB kickstand is based on a Harley design (it is not) and that it is anachronistic (it is not). The rest of the posts have been you continually moving the target as I prove you wrong over and over again. The only thing "off topic" was when I mentioned Ducati frames, which was actually quite relevant because it was in response to you claiming that tubular steel construction lacked the strength and weight properties to be on a proper sport bike.
You're mixing me up with someone else. I never said such thing. If you can cite where I have made such a claim, I'll buy you an XB belt (or kickstand, your choice). However, having seen a fleet of 30some 146hp bikes with belt drives survive two track days back to back under the abuse of everyone from professional racers to complete novices I'm inclined to say that a belt would work quite well for a 100hp final drive. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Sorry if I got you confused with someone else, my mistake. | ||
| 46champ |
Dan you were right I never dreamed there could be an argument over side stand design. One more thing never buy an aftermarket i.e. Chinese replacement jiffy stand, they just don't function correctly. I know they just have to hold the bike up. WELL | ||
| Anonymous |
The 1125R sidestand is forged 6061 aluminum, not cast... | ||
| Metalstorm |
well now.. I guess that just about takes care of that  Thanks Anony! |
