| Author | Message | ||
     Buelltattoo2 |
I have a 00' cyclone, live in Tucson, Az where it gets over 100 degrees daily during the summer. Can anyone suggest a good oil cooler? Dealership say's I don't need one, but engine gets very hot. Any info or help would be appreciated. | ||
| Buellnuts |
JAGG! Worked for me!! Bob | ||
| Blake |
Maybe you can get your hands on the cooler Buell is using on the Firebolt. Whatever cooler you decide on, it should be one that is thermostatically regulated. Also, if you are seriously concerned about overheating, you might try running a good synthetic engine oil and a larger capacity filter (I run the Dyna size filter during summers here in Texas). Another anti-overheating alternative is the fan kit that can be mounted to blow air across the intake manifold between the cylinders. | ||
| Mark_In_Ireland |
Move to the UK...the only time we see 100 degrees is in the kettle!!!!  | ||
| Shooter |
spurgin (bad boy oil cooler).Buelltiful piece. I think Force carries them.Has a t-stat that works, and mounts on the lower frame tube.The firebolt piece looks like the tranny cooler on my 87 chevy pickup. | ||
| Loki |
I think the Firebolts oil cooler may be a JAGG with a shroud to duct air into it. | ||
| M2cyclone00 |
I have a Spurgin on my 00M2. It gets lots of compliments. It has a thermostat in the adapter & stainless braided lines. The thermostat works well, it's cold to the touch on cooler days & dissipates quite a bit of heat on warm days. The bike seems to run quite a bit cooler. Their website is http://www.motorcycle-innovations.com/. You can buy it from them direct. | ||
| Fresh |
Hi all, I fell for the Spurgin too and sofar not found it in my country Holland. I guess i order it in USA at motorcycle innovations. I question though, how many of those hose clamps do you need to tie it properly together. I saw that you need to order them separate. Thx. Fresh | ||
| Buelltattoo2 |
Thanks to all for the info. Have looked at the Spurgin along with the Jagg. Deciding factor will be which is more effective and least obtrusive. Again, thanks. | ||
| Fresh |
The Jagg has no thermostat, the Spurgin does have one. I will order a Spurgin, looks cool too. I still like to know how many hose clamps i need for install, anyone pls. give me advise. Thx. Fresh | ||
| Wruffus |
I remember seeing a HD sportster cooler in the $150 range and the Jagg at $200+ . Same item? No? What's the diff? | ||
| Buellnuts |
I just recieve a new accessory catalog in the mail from H.D. On page 41 it shows a Sportster oil cooler and its a Jagg. The asking price is $159.95 Come to think of it, I have a Jagg cooler sitting in a cabinet that I had on my 97 S-3. I paid 200.00, that was 3 years ago. On the subject of thermostats. If it's not built in and is seperate or in-line, thats just more connections and places to leak. I personally would opt for just having the cover that slips over the cooler when its not Hot. Besides, Who the hell knows if the thermostat is working? The KISS method would be in order on things concerning oil. (Keep It Simple Stupid) Just my opinion, In The Rain Forest, Bob | ||
| Blake |
Or an inline manual valve. | ||
| Fresh |
Hi all, When i place my oilcooler i also place a temp. gauge at the return near the oiltank. If the thermostat fails i can see if temp changes. I wished Buell incorporated a oil temp. gauge standard with the bike. To bad i cannot order the Spurgin cooler because the d@mn secure order site is down. Are they still in business ?, i got the impression by the reply i got by email that this is a small company/one man setup. Fresh (pretending to be very busy at work, and happy he finally discovered the password to access through the company firewall) | ||
| Cmodtopgun |
I too have a Jagg. Had it installed by Jagg @ Sturgis 2 years ago. If you get to Sturgis, it was only about $150. installed. Last week I stopped by my local Harley dealer, and got the harley Davidson leather oil cooler coger for $11.00. Don't really see a reason for a thermostat. One more thing to go wrong. Have used leather cooler covers going back to the 60's on my MG's. Works great, doesn't break. | ||
| Rick_A |
A manual bypass valve is a good way to do it, too. I'd have a Jagg...if I could afford it.  | ||
| Blk_S1 |
Any suggestions on an oil temp gauge? I am thinking about an oil cooler but have no idea what kind of temps are typical or what my S1's running at. Has anybody ever heard of a buell actually seizing from over heating? | ||
| Gotbuell |
Ran a JAGG on my S-2 with Thunderstorm heads, BIG cams, Very trick step header, Mikuni etc. Also running JAGG on the S1W and my 95" 110hp Harley. Thermostat is a good idea if you ride in colder climates as well as hot  . I like the one from Lockhart better than a manual. Too easy to forget to use the manual. If you are worried that its not working, just feel the cooler. If it hasn't opened the cooler will be cold. Never had a leak fron the extra connections at the thermo. | ||
| Rempss |
The Sportster dipstick units fits in an X1 tank, you do have the remove the seat to read it though. But if you just need an every once in a while reading, its great and only $30 or so. Jeff | ||
| Kahuna |
What is considered normal operation oil temp.? | ||
| Gotbuell |
Around 200 is normal from my experience. At 250 most oils have started to breakdown, especially if it has been for a period of time. I changed my bikes to Twin Power Synthetic and saw a 5-10 degree reduction in temps. This oil is made by Silkolene, the largest producer of oils for motorcycles in the world. It is blended specifically for Air Cooled V-Twins and yes there is a difference. Because of the needle and roller bearing in our motors a high content of Zinc and Phosphorus is critical. Oils for water cooled bikes and worse yet cars do not have the proper amounts of these critical elements neccessary to make your motor live. | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
You could always move to Newfoundland (give me a Buell riding buddy) I was out tonight for a ride and the temp was -1 degree celsius but the roads were clear. No chance of overheating in that weather. Will warm soon though. Blake have you got a shivering emoticon?? I found this link www.motorcycle-innovations.com/index.html go there for the Spurgin if I had to add a cooler would be this one. Looks good on the bike too. Bill | ||
| Blake |
 <sigh>
 GotBuell: As have many of us, you have also apparently been made the unwitting victim of heresay and falsehoods. Read some of the links above and the prior discussions in the archives of this topic if you desire true  enlightenment. I'm still learning too. It is a fascinating subject, but one plagued with more utter BS than I could ever have imagined. | ||
| Gotbuell |
I agree that there is a lot of BS and falsehoods regarding oil for motorcycles, especially air cooled V-Twins. Unfortunately I also believe there has been a backlash of opinions based on information that does not directly apply to Harley motors and so called experts that have made inconclusive studies and therefore false statements. This has caused confusion and even caused riders to believe that any oil is probably fine. I simplified my reasons for my beliefs as to why I use V-Twin specific oils, underestimating the knowledege that the readers here might have. I am very familiar with Dr. Woolum's study and there are a couple of holes in it as it pertains to us. First the vehicle was a Honda V65 which is very different in its mechanical makeup than our motors. DO NOT underestimate the needs of needle and roller bearings as compared to plain bearings. His testing was done over a one year period and the motor was not pulled apart to inspect for wear. It was also done in a non controlled environment without repeatability. Oil analysis can tell alot but not the whole picture. Also his testing was done over relativley short intervals and I am more concerned about long term effects, 40-50,000 miles and more. Even reclaimed 29cent oil will keep a motor wet enough to lubricate for a couple thousand miles with out blowing up. The highly respected motorcycle product tester Nick Nicholson has done extensive high mileage long term oil testing and I have had lengthy conversations with him concerning his belief that Harleys need special oil. In fact his testing of Twin Power oil is what led Harley to improve their oil from the old HD240 to the newer HD360. I have also had discussions with Silkolene engineers regarding their long term endurance testing that further substantiates these beliefs. I made the mistake of simplifying my reasons but the facts are there to bear out the difference in the oils and needs. The BMW test again only looked at oil composition with out any real world testing, and not as it relates to our motors. Roller, Needle and even Ball bearings have a very different wear factor than plain bearings and it is part of the oils job to continually coat these surfaces with particles form the oil base stock to reduce wear. They require different types of additives and pressure than plain bearings. Plain bearings ride on a film of oil and rely on the pressure to keep the bearing surface from contacting the crankshaft. Roller and needle bearings do not function in this manner. As proof look at the oil pressure our motors run at. A typical motorcycle engine would fail with the 5-10 lbs. of pressure we regularly see. I have just upgraded my DynoJet 250 with the Endurance Testing Module and may conduct a long term oil test in the future if I can spare the Dyno time. Untill then I will stick to what I have seen so far in this industry and continue to use and advise my customers to use Twin Power, Harley, or Mobil 1 V Twin oils. One of the biggest problems with oil disccusions is that is is not a subject that is easy to see actual results. If you put in oil and it doesn't blow up it must be OK. I have asked many people over the years why they use a particular oil and it has always amazed me as to how passionate they can be with no proof or even realistic explanation. This is and always will be a fascinating and frustrating conversation, kinda like religion and politics. | ||
| Blake |
Or like reading a one paragraph dissertation!  GotBuell: Your points are well taken. However, pleased consider the following: Most any name brand 50 weight oil will have as much or more anti-wear additives as your preferred "Twin Power, Harley, or Mobil 1 V Twin" oils. Your contentions regarding the vulnerabilities of roller versus journal bearings are completely backwards. It is the journal bearings that upon startup suffer significant exposure to a problematic wear environment (metal to metal contact). It is the journal bearings that require significant protection in that regard. The --W50 weight oils are NOT subject to EPA additive limitations that were imposed on automotive 30 weight "energy conserving" oils. You really should read through the Lubrication topic archives. There is good as well as bad information. I think we've done a good job of sorting out the good stuff. You should also know that a higher concentration of anti-wear additives does NOT necessarily provide better anti-wear protection. Anti-wear additives work sacrificially. An oil containing half the concentration of anti-wear additives compared to another will protect against metal to metal contact/wear equally well. As long as the additives are not nearly completely consumed, you have no worries. Regular oil change intervals ensure that the anti-wear additives are maintained in adequate concentrations. The HD oil is great. I personally prefer the added protection (high temperature stability and other attributes) of a good synthetically based --W50 engine oil. I also recognize that there are those who would promote "special" V-Twin formulations as a way to get my money or, in the case of Mobil, more of my money. As to long term tests... That would be nice, however, the results of short term tests are equally valid. In the absence of any significant wear over a short term test interval (the duration of a normal oil change duty cycle) it is highly improbable that a long term test would reveal any unforseen deficiencies. If it ain't wearing, it ain't wearing. If a deficiency exists, a short term test WILL reveal accelerated wear. Why didn't it? Because there was none, and the oil when drained still contained adequate concentrations of anti-wear compounds. Still, I'm always willing to listen and learn. If you can show any reason why a roller bearing needs special or higher concentrations of anti-wear additives, I'm all ears. Likewise, if you can show that the special "V-Twin" formulations contain anything of substance that is different from comparable --W50 automotive oil formulations, I'd sure like to know about it. Let me ask you the following: 1. Is it likely that roller bearings would function just fine for their intended design life without ANY anti-wear additives in their lubricating oil? 2. Where are anti-wear compounds most needed in our Buell engines? Whare are they most needed in automotive (water cooled journal bearing) engines? I really do enjoy this debate, no matter how long it endures. Blake (thetruthisoutthere) | ||
| Jima4media |
Last Monday night we had a good talk about oil at our ASBN meeting. Terry Paisley is THE oil engineer for United Airlines. They run jet engines for days straight in temperatures extremes that no motorcycle motor would ever see. They have $8,000 bearings to protect. His advice - Never use car oil in a air cooled V-Twin. HD oil is OK. Synthetic oil is better. Change oil often. Don't run an air cooled motor hot - If you are in parade mode - turn it off. My only problem with synthetics is they tend to foam too much. When running 90/90/90 - 90 mph for 90 miles in 90 degree weather - you will be blowing brown latte out of your breathers. I'm still looking for a solution to that problem. It may be running a blend of synthetic and dinosaur oil. Jim X-2.5 | ||
| Blake |
Jim: United Airlines employs a tribologist (lubrication engineer)? Or is this guy something else? I always understood that turbine manaufacturers adamantly specify the grade of lubricants to be used in their products, often providing a specific list of approved products from various manufacturers. Interestingly, turbine manufacturers do NOT market their own brand of lubricants. When he says "Never use car oil in an air cooled V-Twin" I assume he is referring to the prevalent --W30 or --W40 grade energy conserving automotive oils? You will get no argument on that point from me. If however, he means that we should only use engine oils specifically designated for use in an air cooled V-Twin... well... I'd sure like to know why. Do synthetics have a greater propensity to foam compared to fossil oils? I've not heard that before now. I'm pretty sure that the anti-foaming agent is an additive, at least for fossil oils. Doesn't make sense then that foaming would be a characteristic defined solely by the type of base stock used. | ||
| Newfie_Buell |
OK, So what is the best oil to run in the engine of my S1. Currently using the recommended HD oils but may change if someone can offer something better. Bill | ||
| Gotbuell |
1. Is it likely that roller bearings would function just fine for their intended design life without ANY anti-wear additives in their lubricating oil? No - My engineering freinds tell me that by design roller bearings have some metal to metal contact during use and are essentially "replenished" by zinc in particular during normal operation. The oil is not only a lubricant and coolant but also essential to life. I have heard this many times from engineering folks, so unless this is incorrect I will stick with my belief that this is a critical component. 2. Where are anti-wear compounds most needed in our Buell engines? Where are they most needed in automotive (water cooled journal bearing) engines? In our Buells they are needed for the rod and main bearings during normal operation. For journal bearing motors they are more critical only during start up. Remember that a journal bearing motor relys on oil pressure to keep metal to metal contact from happening. Oil shear strength is actually more important than the anti wear additives. Also the ability of the oil to "Cling" to the metal parts when the motor is not running is very important to offer protection during startup. Of course the anti wear properties are usefull for all motors for rings and valves and there is no real difference in our motors here. Years ago I read an accelerated wear test where two lab motors were built to identical specs. One motor was started and stopped 365 times with an interval of 15 minutes running and 15 minutes off. The other motor was run for 15 minutes and then started the following day, for 365 days. At the end of the test both motors were torn down and inspected. The "one year" motor had appreciable more wear to the cylinders and bearings and the conclusion drawn was the inability of the oil to remain in place during the 24 hour off period. The wear was very noticeable in the plain rod bearings. I do feel that larger quantities of these additives are benificial in our motors because of the nature of the motor. The pounding that Buell motors exert on the rod bearings in particular are very high compared to smoother running 4 cylinders or automotive V-8's. The uneven firing of our bikes is harder on everything related to the motor and I believe that the consumption of the additives is therefore higher. I will also agree that regular oil changes are the most important aspect of motor life. My 1986 FLHTC has been flogged hard all its life and when I tore the motor down at 155,000 miles to powdercoat the cases, the bottom end was beautiful. After cleaning and powdercoating, I honed the barrels, put in new rings, ground the valves and put it back together. It now belongs to a freind and has over 225,000 miles on it with the original rod and main bearings! The oil and filter have been changed every 2500 miles and all it has ever seen is H-D oil and Twin Power. The only internal failure in all those miles were a lifter roller that Harley admitted was a poorly built part and the oil pump body that just wore out. I don't think I would have got the same life with an automotive grade oil. I might be wrong but I think there is enough evidence that I will spend the little extra for a V-Twin rated synthetic - Call it cheap insurance. | ||
| Flamesword |
Lockhart has a 420 used on sportsters that mounts vertical on front tube. Got from my HD dealer for under $ 100. Does the job, mainline company, nothing fancy - (but pretty doesn't mean fast does it) |
