| Author | Message | ||
     Dust_Storm |
Aaron, darnit, you've got me thinking in all sorts of places now.. I looked at the equations you posted above and can see the relationship to the flow (that undoubtedly effects the wave) but is there an equation that corresponds to the wave length based on flowrate and pipe length? (Egad, I'm starting to sound like Blake...  ) If so, what is it, as I'm interested in writing a program to help me calculate these "thoughts" a little easier... Also, you mention a lot about various cams. As I know, Nallin is the only one that makes cams for the blast, unless you are suggesting using cams from another Buell series ( I remember something about X-1 cams, but only 4 and 6). Anyhoot, what is the best set to use in a "stock" blast that will allow for higher performance with a better exhaust? There's got to be some math involved here... ...there's always math involved somewhere  .. [Ds] | ||
| Aaron |
DS ... very perceptive comments! Denish has a couple of formulas in his book, a long and a short formula. I've had success with the short formula, but not with the long. I can't find a wave anywhere near where the long formula says it should be, and I've tried on a couple of bikes. I have to go much longer. The short formula comes out pretty close, though. Here's the long formula: L = (1380 * Ex) / rpm Short formula: L = (950 * Ex) / rpm L is length of pipe Ex is 180 plus exhaust valve opening BBDC @ .053 lift rpm is in the middle of the powerband. These are just guidelines, though, to get it right you have to do a bunch of cut and try and have a dyno handy. On the cams, most any XL cams will go in a Blast. It uses the number 1 and 2 (rear cylinder) cams, transposed to put the exhaust cam in front. The cams that it comes with are literally Sportster 1200S rear cylinder cams. But, the short stroke changes what the ideal cam parameters should be. It's hard to develop much cylinder pressure, so you generally want an earlier intake close event. To get the intake close out there and make rpm, you have to raise the compression ratio. That's one of the things I've been experimenting with lately, changing that intake close point (it's fairly easy to alter cam timing on XL cams) and watching what it does to the cranking compression and the dyno sheet. Andrews is the only one I know of who offers Blast-specific grinds, the B70's and B50's. Here are the figures: Stock: int timing: 9.5/25.5 (215 degrees) .475 lift .073 TDC lift exh timing: 39/11 (230 degrees) .475 lift .080 TDC lift B50: int timing: 16/32 (228 degrees) .498 lift .163 TDC lift exh timing: 43/15 (238 degrees) .498 lift .146 TDC lift B70: int timing: 22/38 (240 degrees) .530 lift .196 TDC lift exh timing: 48/20 (248 degrees) .530 lift .176 TDC lift Neither of these are considered "bolt-in", but I personally would be surprised if the B50's have any issues. Maybe. The long rod does cause more tdc dwell time and that pushes the valve to piston clearance a little. They won't have any valve to valve or coil bind or retainer to guide issues I can guarantee you. They'd probably work okay with the stock compression, too. The B70's though will need springs and they probably would push the valve to piston clearance a little tight. And they certainly need more compression. I know of a Blast that was built around these cams it goes like stink. Good luck, AW | ||
| Aaron |
By the way, guys, don't misunderstand me, I am NOT a motor guy, I just like to read and try to understand and run experiments in my spare time. Guys like Wes Brown and Ron Dickey, THEY are motor guys, they live and breathe this stuff and have made it their life's work. They're probably looking at all this drivel and thinking "yeah, but he left out this and this and you've also got to consider this" etc etc. One of the things you realize as you get more into all this is just how much you DON'T know! It's like you get stupider all the time. One very good motor guy, someone who is certainly one of the very best, said something to me once that really stuck in my head. He said "Some days I think I'm really smart, and I have all this stuff figured out. And some days I feel like I should be filling out an application at McDonald's because I don't know squat." That really impressed me. Here is this guy, at the top of his game, and it even humbles him. I hardly know him, but my respect for him grew 10x that day. And when you consider how far below his level I am, you start to understand how complex this stuff truly is. Books are good, but never take them as gospel. Nothing beats having a mentor. | ||
| Dust_Storm |
Judging by that, I am proud to admit that I am blissfully ignorant of mechanical things  . Bun in all actuallity, thanks a ton for your posts Aaron, it's a little frightening when a non-mechanical guy like me can read and understand your posts, and extrapolate the information to fully comprehend it. So once again, thanks for your patience. (My mechanic friends are all scratching their heads at me.. "Were the hell did he come up with that, it actually makes sense???!" Soooooo let me see if I get this straight: In the short formula, you are essentially trying to find the sweet spot for the wave. Lenght is approximately equal to the quantity of 950(don't understand where this number comes from, but its a "given", so we'll go with it) times the product of 180 (more than likely the wave's phase) added to the .053 lift(valve's outlet value?) all divided by the rpm of the engines most "powerful" point. If plotted linearly, the graph would be a very shallow bell type curve. By moving the approximate value of the RPM range, based on the value for the cam lift, you can essentially dial in the peak value for your horsepower at a certian RPM; eg, moving your powercuvre either forward or backward. I have a good feeling that the baffling in the muffler actually acts like a "maze" of pipe, and increases the overall length of the pipe while distorting the wave. This is why the stock muffler sucks so bad, the powerband has been shifted to either end of the RPM range, causing a huge dip in the middle. I'm nuts, its certifiable..  I'm going to have to plot this out to see what happens with the different cams at the different RPM values. I not going to do anything wild with compression yet, I'd like to try and keep the engine as "stock" as possible around 500cc's, makes it easier to compete in Sound of Singles.. Man, I'm getting way to excited about this...  [Ds] | ||
| Aaron |
DS, you're on the right track, but that exhaust number is not lift, it's the number of degrees before bottom dead center that the valve passes through .053 of lift while opening. Commonly referred to as the exhaust valve open point. People rarely use seat timing because the valve is moving too slowly as it approaches the seat and that introduces too much variation in the number. But then again, the .053 lift point is just a single point on a complex curve, so it's not the greatest for describing a cam either. But it's generally the best number the cam grinders give us. The exhaust valve actually opens before the exhaust stroke, during the late stages of the power stroke, to use some of the combustion pressure to help overcome pumping losses in the exhaust. Likewise, the exhaust valve closes after the exhaust stroke, during the early stages of the intake stroke to help get the intake charge moving early with all this wave travel stuff, as well as inertia scavenging. Intake valves also open before the intake stroke and close after it as well. Opening early is all about the exhaust augmented intake flow and closing late is all about using the incoming fuel's inertia to maximize cylinder fill. People always talk about duration in cams, but honestly, it's just a quickie shorthand number to get an idea of how much cam it is. The main story is in the timing specs. You can get duration from the timing specs, too ... for example, the stock exhaust valve opens at 39 degrees BBDC and closes at 11 degrees ATDC, right? Well, 39 (how much before the exhaust stroke it opens) + 180 (the exhaust stroke) + 11 (how much after the exhaust stroke it closes) = 230 degrees duration. See, the timing figures tell a more complete story. To figure out overlap, add the intake open point to the exhaust close point (9.5 + 11 = 20.5 degrees for the stock cams). Or use TDC lift as kind of a quick reference. But I digress. I don't know exactly how these formulas were derived, but I betcha money that 180 has something to do with the length of the exhaust stroke, since they're adding it to the exhaust open point, and the the 950 and 1380 are just simplified constants derived from the speed that waves travel in the pipe. But like I said, I have trouble with the long formula. AW | ||
| Aaron |
DS: you sound like someone who would really enjoy Denish's books. The best of the three is called "The Big Twin High Performance Guide". Don't let the title scare you off, it's good general info applicable to all pushrod motors. When you get done with that one and are hungry for more, read "The V-Twin Tuner's Guide" volumes 1 and 2. Volume 2 of the Big Twin High Performance Guide was supposed to be out by now but it's late, I'm chomping at the bit for it. Denish has a way of explaining engine theory and concepts in layman's terms, it's real easy reading. I don't necessarily agree 100% with everything he says, and it seems like he leaves out a few things here and there, but overall the books are fantastic. FYI, Ron Dickey, who occassionally posts here, contributed to these books, too. I highly recommend them. | ||
| Dust_Storm |
That was weird, I could have sworn I posted a thanks for that.. well, thanks again! I'll be checking them out at B&N and Amazon. [Ds] | ||
| Dansherman |
Ok, I just read the entire set of posts in this topic. Let me make sure I've got this straight: V&H pipe = Big improvement? I hope so, cause I ordered one when I bought my bike four days ago. PS I've impressed myself by actaully being able to understand some of the theories you've been talking about. Either that or I'm impressed with you guys for being able to explain things in almost-laymans terms. Somebody here is doing really well. | ||
| M2cyclone00 |
We just installed a D&D exhaust on Lisa's new Blast. Great sound & quite loud! I can't even hear my M2 with a Force pipe when I ride beside her. Very nice tone to it. It increased the midrange torque by about 30%. Peak hp actually lost about 1hp. The dyno chart looks pretty similar to a Kerker or White Bros exhaust. All black, no D&D tag on it. Looks quite nice. Her new Blast is one of if not the best sounding bikes I've heard. Haven't had it tuned properly yet. The pilot jet was changed to a 45, but haven't changed the timing or main jet. | ||
| Xgecko |
e series on ebay | ||
| Strat81 |
Hi Everyone! This is my first post, I've been lurking for a while. I've had my Blast for just udner two weeks and I'm starting to get ready for some mods. I want to change the exhaust, but I'm not sure what to get. I've read pretty much everything in the vault but it's all leading me in circles. Perhaps ya'll can help.  As for what I'm looking for, I don't want anything obnoxiously loud. I have neighbors and come home late sometimes. Last thing I want to do is start a war. Besides, I already have hearing damage from playing the drums so I don't want any more. But I do want a deep, throaty rumble. (Imagine the sound of a tuned chevy small block v8) I know I'm not gonna get v8 sound with one lung, but something close. A small increase in volume is ok, but a large one isn't. I've heard the White Brothers pipe at the service department of my dealership. At idle it sounded great, but once the throttle was cracked, it sounded nasty. Way too much 'crack' if you know what I mean. (Apologies to all with the White Bros pipe) I'm not sure how the discs were set up on it. I'm primarily concerned with sound, performance is secondary. A horsepower gain is acceptable, a decrease is not. I'd rather have gains at the low-end (hooray NY/NJ traffic!) as opposed to the high-end, but either would suffice. I plan on having a Dynojet kit installed at the time I put the pipe on. I might ad cams in the future. I won't be installing it myself so ease of installation is moot. I know a Buell tech and race bike builder and he wants to juice it up and get it on the dyno more than I do! I'm not concerned about the price either (within reason!). Thank you VERY much in advance for your help guys! | ||
| Xgecko |
Rich I have bad news for you. The White Brothers is likely gonna be the Quietest pipe out there short of doing a supertrap yourself. The V&H makes the WB sound silent same for the BUB's, Force, and D&D. Kerker has a pipe that is similar in design to the WB only it uses a Supertrap can. From what I heard standing next to one it's about the same. Though as you said there is the adjustability of disks that can control some of the sound. | ||
| Fssnoc2501 |
Strat81 & Xgecko, The can on the Kerker does not have adjustable disk. It's a Kerker can not Supertrapp, though I wish it was. (more options in tuning) The sound is very pleasant until about 1/2 throttle or so then it talks fairly authoritatively. Will probably have to modify mine after Bonneville due the mods I,ve been making. Strat81 be aware that you need to retune the carb (Dynojet or otherwise) or you will disapointed with performance. Ray | ||
| Xgecko |
opps I was under the impression that Kerker used a supertrap can my bad (I'm even more happy now that I bought the WB pipe) | ||
| Strat81 |
OK, so let's assume I decide to get the White Bros pipe. What's the deal with these discs? What are they? What do they do? Are they easy to adjust? Do they adjust sound, performance or both? If I adjust the discs, do I have to adjust the carb? I also see from the PDF i got from White Bros that there are end caps for the E-Series. What are these and what do they do? I guess I shouldn't sell the WB pipe short based on my one experience with it. It seems to be hella adjustable. Thanks guys! | ||
| Xgecko |
DISKS OK you can add (if you buy more of them) or remove disks. Adding disks, provided you have increased the HP in another way (displacement, flow heads etc) will allow the motor to breath better and it will also sound louder. The opisite of this removing disks decreases noise and airflow and increases torque to a limit where in the whole thing colapes (the torque/hp model not the pipe itself). WB has done a good job of balancing the torque/HP for a fairly stock engine and they have a much adjustablity if you decide to "play" with the motor. I owned a V&H and it was loud enough that I decided to switch. The WB can be loud at the top end but is ingeneral a fairly quiet pipe. White Brothers sells a kit for repacking their pipes and it is easy compared to other pipe like the V&H. As for the Endcap, this device makes all the disks actually function remove it and you have a V&H type dragpipe (pointless as far as I can see). | ||
| Strat81 |
Cool, thanks for all the info bro! I'll try to order it this week and get it installed soon. The techs and parts guys didn't have anything bad to say about the E-series and said it'd be a good choice cuz it can help you tune the output without relying only on the carb. I'll keep ya'll posted! | ||
| Xgecko |
A thing about White Brothers they have made their name on pipes for Singles both two stroke and especially 4 stroke. | ||
| Strat81 |
Greetings All! I finally had the E-Series pipe put on yesterday, along with a K&N filter and jet kit. I am quite pleased! Throttle response is very much improved, and so is the sound. I'm glad I'm not getting that crackly sound I'd heard on another WB E-Series. I'm running 7 discs on the pipe, btw. The volume is definitely up, not it's not overbearing. The pitch is a bit lower, more so at lower RPMS. According to the seat of my pants, acceleration is improved and is noticeable in all parts of the RPM range. The dead spot in the middle seems to be gone, too. I like it a lot! Thanks to all who helped me choose the pipe! | ||
| Davef |
I just ordered a WB E-Series from the local bike shop. What other parts do I need to go to the Dealer to get in order to put it on? - dave f. | ||
| Xgecko |
you need a new exhaust gasket and you need to use the torque valve that comes with the WB pipe. not using it leaves a large un even area that can't be good for gas flow. I would recommend a 45 pilot and 170 main jet as well | ||
| Rebelgtp |
ok its time for a new pipe. my raise just kicked in (includeing retro woohoo). anyway i just got the new dennis kirk harley catalog and was supprised to find many blast parts includeing all 4 exhausts. the cheapest was the bubs at $195, the most expensive was the white brothers at $250. as of right now i am leaning twords the whitebrothers. but has anyone used the bubs pipe yet? or the kerker? anyway let me know what you guys think. oh yeah i would suggest getting this catalog to any of you, not only do they have the pipes, but the 3 differant tires and several ignition modules that should work. later | ||
| Ezblast |
I run the Bub, Direct Hits plug/wire/coil system, a very modifiedintake/filter system, and 45/175 jetting. Need to tweek a few more things, then I'll post a dyno run. Seat ot the pants - learning to brake all over - no more flat spots and lots of torque(front now lifts easy) Blasting on the darkside! EZ | ||
| Rebelgtp |
how do you like your bubs pipe ezblast? hows it sound? had you installed that before your new coils setup and intake? i was thinking of doing an intake as well but can't decide wich way to go (gutted box or loose the box and setup a custom). i have to much time to think about these things at work. no more flat spots in the torque sounds really good to me. is the bubs the only pipe you have used? | ||
| Ezblast |
I did a lot of checking, and most every other pipe out there will give better top hp numbers, but I've always suspected that because of the Bub's header exhaust size and shortness of muffler(stinger-style) that the torque numbers would be better - and so far that feels right.0-30 is a blink where I better be clicking into second and not thinking about it and the rush to sixty(clicks again-God bless Mobil 1)is just a little slower and then it starts feeling normal at 75 cruising with a little left for passing, the top end still not tried for - probobly find out when I go visit sis The sound I love - decel. sounds like a borla while acel. is a raucious caphony - just too cool - but then I like Metal as well as country. Blasting on the dark side! EZ | ||
| Chaser |
Can anyone rate the following exhaust systems by volume Level? This is what I gathered by reading posts. Anybody have any thoughts /changes or better info than this? queit Stock Kerker Blast Complete System Exhaust system White Brothers E-Series Complete System Vance and Hines SSR -R Complete Exhaust System Force Motor Products Street Fighter Bubs Exhaust Part D&D LOUD Thanks for the help Josh | ||
| Sarodude |
I have heard that the V&H pipes to vary considerably in terms of volume level. Might depend on who packed 'em and hopw much material they used or something like that... -Saro | ||
| St0rmbringer |
Ignore | ||
| Jprovo |
Factory Pro-Series Exhaust!!! I want to see more pics and find out all that I can on this system.  too cool! James | ||
| Sarodude |
The new Blast exhaust LOOKS stepped... That's all I can tell so far. I'm not a huge fan of the V&H I have right now and am SOOOO tempted to give ol' Matty a phone call... -Saro |
