| Author | Message | ||
     Jimidan |
The new engine, exclusively developed for Buell, will be produced by BRP-Rotax in Gunskirchen, Austria. That statement is kinda vague to me. For one thing, it is entirely too pithy (sorry Blake)! It could have been written more clearly with more words. Also, it probably was written in Austrian (by somebody named Ahhhnold) and translated into English, and we all know that things have a way of getting lost in the translation. Or it could have been BPR-Rotax tooting their own horn a bit. After reading it a few times, it really doesn't exclude that it is a spec engine. It also does not exclude that Buell had a part in the development. I see no reason to doubt Buell's involvement at the level that has been expressed on here and in the press releases. It looks like a fine engine, and I cannot wait to feel the power delivery! (Message edited by jimidan on July 26, 2007) | ||
| Jimidan |
"utter, contemptible lies"? Did you see that on a billboard with "Eat More Chicken" on it? Pithy good! Pissy better! (Message edited by jimidan on July 26, 2007) | ||
| Jimidan |
Jose`, great photos and interesting observations, as usual! jimi | ||
| Jimidan |
These are the same people that when I was at M.I.T. working on a Buell project that would have been light years ahead of anyone in the industry, quickly clamped down on the project citing "Over my dead body will Buell ever have anything that HD doesn't" - not only did I save the e-mail but there are a couple folks at HD who are still major pissed that I have all the documentation, including the video that was made when the program was presented at the Harvard Faculty Club and on the same stage with Bill Gates in CA. Name dropper...  You forgot to include President Kennedy. | ||
| Blake |
No Jimi, I saw it in a post in this thread by one of the Anonymi. | ||
| Blake |
A small excerpt from our interview with Erik: BWB: Sounds like Rotax acted more like a partner than a contractor? Erik Buell: Yes! They were very open-minded to what we wanted to do as opposed to trying to sell us on their existing designs. We were going in to somebody new for us who specializes in engines, and we weren't sure how they would be pre-defined by what engine it was they were going to do, and we were pleasantly surprised. They were like "well, what do you want?". BWB: So they were excited to further develop their technology as well, in support of y'all? Erik Buell: Yeah. What they were was not trying to sell something that was off the shelf with some kind of glowing review. It was "we're interested in doing something all new; and we've found some good stuff; we've done some things we'd like to have done better, so lets combine our heads and see if we can do something really great." Lot's more later.  (Message edited by Blake on July 26, 2007) | ||
| Rainman |
As long as the it kicks butt and takes down names, I don't care who thought of what. | ||
| Jimidan |
No Jimi, I saw it in a post in this thread by one of the Anonymi. Was it one of the real ones or an imposter? | ||
| Jimidan |
Thanks for doing the interview, Blake. It looks like it was being done by a professional interviewer. New calling? I have seen nothing that would give reason to doubt Erik's words about the engine. We all know that there are many in the HD MoCo who would like nothing more than for Buell to fail...go figure that! Sabotage from within. It reads like a novel...I wonder if Court has the nads to include that in his book? I am looking forward to reading the entire interview. Thanks again, jimidan | ||
| Gregtonn |
Blake, Good stuff. I particularly liked ...so lets combine our heads.... Having spent some there, it sounds like Austrain English to me. ;) José, Thanks for posting the photos. But it's clearly a Rotax, not that there is anything wrong with that.... Maybe I'm missing something. Personally I like the idea of the joint effort by Buell and Rotax. Looking at the pictures though, I really don't see anything that says to me "this engine is clearly a Rotax." G. | ||
| Jimidan |
Looking at the pictures though, I really don't see anything that says to me "this engine is clearly a Rotax." I see plenty of Rotax in it, but why try to reinvent the wheel. But there are unique things that jump out at me, like the on the engine dry sump... | ||
| Rex |
fun reading though, huh? wonder if the magazine folks come over and read what we discuss. an idea for homecoming. one evening at the main hotel, have the new motor in pieces on a table. have the engineers there, and go thru the motor piece by piece, and have a general info discussion. rex | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Let's assume for a moment that Harley calls all the shots and wants to take the cheap route. Wouldn't the cheapest thing to do be to say: "Here Erik. Here is your modern, powerful liquid cooled engine. We like to call it the VRSC." 1) If HD wanted to put a guinnea pig on a treadmill in a Buell, it would happen. There's no assuming anything HD owns Buell. 2) Why would HD put the VR motor in bike that sells for 5-10 grand less than the VR and then have that bike compete with the VR market? Blake, don't be a tease. Post more! | ||
| Mikej |
1. Would never happen. 1a. HDI owns both Harley-Davidson and Buell. 2. The VRod engine development has several variations on the story of how it came to be what it became. 2a. Several local dealerships send their older used inventory outside of the state to keep it from affecting new inventory sales and pricing. Most will also not sell used take-off parts for the same reasons and have very strict rules for scrappers and recyclers who dispose of take-off parts. | ||
| Mikej |
Think about it:   I believe that there are issues with individuals, but that corporate goals to succeed are in sync. | ||
| Davegess |
I know with absolute certainty that when H-D says JUMP Erik asks "how high?". NOT Erik is not able to simply walk in as say "this is what we are doing". He certainly has to jump some hurdles BUT he is very good at the internal politics of H-D and at this point he very much able to drive the train. H-D has far less to say about what Buell does than you think. IF H-d had there way the ANON post would have gone away a long time ago. This motor was conceived by Buell and it is going to be financed out of the PROFITS the bad boy is gonna generate. | ||
| Rainman |
H-D owns Buell, but I don't see much similarity between the XB and the Sportster other than a lump that produces a lot more horses and a lot more torque. Why not have two companies making money, one that creates new and innovative technologies that you can siphon off (Sportys with Thunderstorm heads) for your bread and butter? I still think H-D is leaning on Buell to suck in younger riders and sporty types and create a brotherhood of those who won't buy into anyone else's "brotherhood." If you look at most of us who have become Buellers, they may be on to something. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I work for a company that owns other companies. And another company owns us. I have been in both the role of overseer, and one who is being overseen. In terms of engineering, the parent company *rarely* tells the sub companies what they will do. And couldn't keep up if they tried. The companies that are closest to the problem that is trying to be solved almost always win. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the question asked "exactly who bought who again? I'm confused." Fortunately there is still a strong technocracy... and most of the best ideas usually win. No suprise, as they are the ones closest to the problem... It's hard to beat somebody when they are clearly right. | ||
| Court |
>>>I know with absolute certainty that when H-D says JUMP Erik asks "how high?". NOT Dave: You owe my wife a keyboard . . I just blew a chocolate malt on her old one and have to come down here to respond. Blake: SUGGESTION FOR A BETTER BADWEB: Put the interview in a non-postable thread of it's own (I learned that from when Hunter S. Thompson put "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" in Rolling Stone in installments) and create another thread for discussion about. We need to have that interview, as you add segments as a contiguous piece. . . that's the was us esoterians are. | ||
| Court |
P.S. - about 84% of the bar room banter in this thread is totally bogus . . . another reason to get the interview it's own home. You want to what was going on in Austria. . . ask my wife. She knew more than I did and when I begged for details she told me "what happens in Austria stays in Austria" . . . no kidding! The girl I married and Erik's wife totally stonewalled me! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Rotax is in the market of building engines for manufacturers. Sometimes they have an existing design that a manufacturer can use. There may be minor changes required, but the existing design is satisfactory. If their engineers are anything like Buell's engineers, they chomp at the bit at the opportunity to do something NEW. They build with the tools they have and with the knowledge they know best. If Honda called up Erik and said "We would like you to design a motorcycle for us.", they would supply the requirements, and Erik would supply the design ideas. Does anyone have any doubt that many of the successful attributes of the XB and 1125R lines would appear in that design? Just because certain design elements are common from engine design to engine design it doesn't mean that an engine isn't purpose built to the end user's specifications. On the flipside, Rotax is in the unique position of being able to design a clean slate engine for a company on the edge of international greatness. WHEN the press accolades come for the 1125R, guess who will share in some of the lime light? How many OTHER manufacturers might be willing to utilize Rotax as a result? Every product or service you provide is an opportunity to sell the next one. What if Rotax utilized the Buell opportunity to parlay that into their own motorcycle opportunity? Is there a promising chassis design company looking for their break? Maybe there is a younger less handsome Erik Buell just finishing college with a head full of unrealized patents and ideas. Buell becoming the terror of the streets would be a great item to add to a resume for a Rotax venture. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Jimidan, I see plenty of Rotax in it, Could please you give some specifics? Many parts of both engine designs are common to most modern V twins, not just Rotax. To me the Spyder engine has a chunky almost industrial look. The Buell engine has a lean, sculpted, more refined look, with many unique features. G. | ||
| Jimidan |
Court: P.S. - about 84% of the bar room banter in this thread is totally bogus . . . another reason to get the interview it's own home. I would say that 100% of the "bar room banter is totally bogus", but there were some thoughtful and respectful questions and observations that were chimed over the torch lit mob screaming for blood. Unfortunately, like on the evening news, the sensational carried the headlines and the real news was largely ignored. Is it safe to presume that YOUR contributions to the bar room banter are exempt from your calculation? And what is wrong with a bit of bar room banter on the internet...this is a playroom, not work. And speaking of work, I have noticed that you are on here as much as I am...and I have been retired for 9 years. And speaking of work, how's the book going? Something like this: All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. All work and no play makes Court a dull boy. ... Just messin' with you bud...you know we all love you. jimi ;} | ||
| Jimidan |
I see plenty of Rotax in it, Could please you give some specifics? Greg, I agree with you...I was talking about the general appearance and location of the peripherals. Neither one looks like my 998 though. | ||
| Jimidan |
When Chris Carr was asked what it took to win at Daytona, he said, "A Rotax!" For years my buddy Dawg and I have been telling folks (including Erik personally) to "Put a Rotax in it!". We don't claim credit for it, but it probably didn't hurt any either. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Specifics. As mentioned earlier: 1. The Buell "Hydraulic Vacuum-Assist Slipper-Action Clutch" sounds and functions very much like the "Pneumatic Power Clutch" used in the current 990 Rotax engine powering the Aprilia bikes and the BRP/Can Am Spyder. 2. The oil filter design & location in the engine crankcase. My bet is that a standard Rotax filter cartridge fits.  3. The integrated oil tank. I'm sure Buell wanted this, but Rotax had done this before for their 4-tec dry sump watercraft engine:  There are others but if you don't see the family resemblance you just don't want to see it. The 1125 is clearly an improvement, an evolution, if you will, of the 990. As blake quoted Erik saying, Rotax saw this as an opportunity to improve on things they had done previously along with adding new features to create this engine exclusively for Buell. Rotax Inside, not that there is anything wrong with that. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on July 27, 2007) | ||
| Gregtonn |
1. The Buell "Hydraulic Vacuum-Assist Slipper-Action Clutch" sounds very much like the Pneumatic Power Clutch used in the current 990 Rotax engine powering the Aprilia bikes and the BRP/Can Am Spyder. 2. The oil filter design & location in the entine crankcase. 3. The integrated oil tank. Rotax has done this before for their 4-tec watercraft engine: 1. I might give you that one. Does Rotax have the patent? Buell? Someone else? 2. We had 1940s and 1950s era tractors on the farm with similar setups. 3. That's going pretty far afield. Comparing an oil injection supply tank on a 2-stroke engine to a dry sump system?? Granted they do both hold oil. Sorry I'm still not seeing "clearly Rotax" in the Buell engine. G. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Reference point 3. Just went to the Rotax website. The engine referenced in the top half of the page IS for a 4 stroke water craft. Point 3 conceded. Greg | ||
| José_quiñones |
And you also should concede point 2 because the internal oil filter is standard Rotax practice, and it has never been standard Buell practice until this engine, which Rotax builds for them. Coincidence? Look, as a Buell owner, I am proud that once they decided to go outside of HD to outsource their engine, they chose Rotax, they could not have done any better. No excuses needed. I would not try to minimize the fact Buell "Put a a F*ing Rotax in it!" as many have asked for over the years. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Rotax Patents Clutch: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=2&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-b ool.html&r=63&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=Rotax&OS= Rotax&RS=Rotax Partially integrated Oil Tank: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-b ool.html&r=34&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=Rotax&OS= Rotax&RS=Rotax That's just a quick search of Issued patents, I'm sure there are a bunch of Applied patents out there. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on July 27, 2007) |
