| Author | Message | ||
     Spiderman |
Jimi would make a good politician. | ||
| Jimidan |
Jimi you really need to start up your own bike company so you can make all these decicions. I know for a fact that Buell could have very easily gone all metric and it would have actually made the bike 100 bucks cheaper but they keep the mix on purpose just to piss guys like you off;) If for "guys like" me, do you mean potential customers? Thanks for your attempt to lighten up this thread...I "guess". I actually intend to own one of these machines, and the fact that they cut this corner doesn't make me very happy. I am sick of domestic machines being mix and match. I would pay an extra $100 for an all metric machine. Are you planning on buying one of these 1225R's, there Dave? If not, I guess it really doesn't matter to you one way or another, so how helpful is your post? If so, can you say that you would not prefer an all metric machine rather than a mix and match? And I am not really very happy with Anony's tone or answers to these and other questions either. He has all of the tact of a guy like John Bolton, and having him berate current Buell owners and potential 1225R customers seems like a hell of a way to promote a new bike on a Buell site. Wouldn't you agree? | ||
| Jimidan |
Jimi would make a good politician. Maybe, but you could bet your arse that I wouldn't be giving the tax payers a good screwing. Admittedly, as a retired criminal investigator, I have a sensitive BS meter honed by many years of knocking heads with some of the best lawyers and engineers. Thanks for the compliment though.  | ||
| Blake |
Pithy good. | ||
| Jimidan |
Pissy bad. | ||
| Jimidan |
Glad you pitched in there Blake. Let's see what kind of nads you have on this issue. As an engineer, what do you think about it? Is it more likely for someone to make a mistake with using the wrong fastener on a mix and match bike or one that is all metric (or all SAE), especially when using the 1/4 and M6 bolts, which will actually start in the threads of each other? Show the Pup your integrity! | ||
| M1combat |
Interesting... I have owned a mixed bike since November of '03 and haven't stripped anything so far. Maybe I'm just that good... We're talking about metal here. If you cross thread something you generally know it before it's too late. EVERY time I've ever cross threaded one there came a point where I thought "It's a little tougher than I expected" and then "crap...". I've learned the lesson. No problem here and it's not the Kool-aid talking either. I've rotated the engine at least six times, rebuilt the forks and brakes, replaced the steering head bearings, swapped tires 14 times, swapped rear rims (including hardware), removed the heads, replaced the stator, Installed two new belts, removed and re-installed the muffler I don't know HOW many times (I'd say 20 is being conservative), had the fairing off at least four times, had the tail section off two or three times, swapped ECMs three times, replaced the tail light six or seven times (I ride in the rain/snow/mud/etc), Swapped the voltage regulator, swapped the battery, I've taken the airbox off a number of times... No stripped threads  . I'm pulling the engine tomorrow... Wish me and my mixed threads luck . I'll probably even have a beer or two so cross your fingers too if you would . | ||
| Jackbequick |
The difference in pitch between a 6mm x 1mm bolt and a 1/4-20 bolt is such that there will be about .011" of interference for each turn of either bolt in a mismatched hole. That is about the thickness of 11 sheets of average paper or a slice of baloney. And the interference would be accumulative and steadily increasing. So you get .022" after the second turn, .033" after the third turn, etc. For a 1/4" bolt in a 6mm thread, there is also a theoretical difference in the diameters of about .015" that will cause additional interference at the roots of the the threads. Additionally, metric threads have an included angle of 55 degrees while Imperial threads are 60 degrees. So there will be some additional mismatch and interference on that point too. Even the most insensitive brute should realize that something is not right before the first turn is completed. We all encounter many things in life that seem to be there for no other reason than to test our intelligence. When that little voice in your head tells you that something might not be right, listen to it. Jack | ||
| Donutclub |
I'd prefer to have all metric and not the mix and match. The mixing and matching is a PITA. What's the rationale for mixing and matching metric and english? | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: It is simply not rational to do what you are suggesting, so it is total axe grinding. Why in the world would we have two identical wheels but one that has 1/4-20 threads and the other 6-1.0 metric. It's just begging for a quality mistake with some one on the line or at a dealer to put in the wrong fastener and ruin a wheel. Also if you decided you wanted to put a different color XB wheel on your 1125, you'd have to get all new hardware. I'm sorry, but you are wrong. then M1Combat calls him out with: Interesting... I have owned a mixed bike since November of '03 and haven't stripped anything so far. Maybe I'm just that good... We're talking about metal here. If you cross thread something you generally know it before it's too late. EVERY time I've ever cross threaded one there came a point where I thought "It's a little tougher than I expected" and then "crap...". I've learned the lesson. No problem here and it's not the Kool-aid talking either. I've rotated the engine at least six times, rebuilt the forks and brakes, replaced the steering head bearings, swapped tires 14 times, swapped rear rims (including hardware), removed the heads, replaced the stator, Installed two new belts, removed and re-installed the muffler I don't know HOW many times (I'd say 20 is being conservative), had the fairing off at least four times, had the tail section off two or three times, swapped ECMs three times, replaced the tail light six or seven times (I ride in the rain/snow/mud/etc), Swapped the voltage regulator, swapped the battery, I've taken the airbox off a number of times... No stripped threads . I'm pulling the engine tomorrow... Wish me and my mixed threads luck . I'll probably even have a beer or two so cross your fingers too if you would . So, Mr. Combative, are you calling Anony a liar, or just a fool. He says that his crack team of assemblers and those specially trained HD/Buell mechanics would get all corn-fused with "two identical wheels but one that has 1/4-20 threads and the other 6-1.0 metric." He contends that, "It's just begging for a quality mistake with some one on the line or at a dealer to put in the wrong fastener and ruin a wheel." What you are saying is that you can do it every time, no problemo, drunk even. Which is it...you can't have it both ways. Are those specially trained techs and assembly line workers just that dumb or what? Which is it, Mr. Combative? then Jack piles on the poor factory rep (these guys are just plain mean): Even the most insensitive brute should realize that something is not right before the first turn is completed. We all encounter many things in life that seem to be there for no other reason than to test our intelligence. When that little voice in your head tells you that something might not be right, listen to it. Good advice for even "the most insensitive brutes" on the line at Buell and in the dealerships workshops! Listen to the little voices in your head, they will tell you what to do. Give 'em heck, there Jack, and be quick about it...} Let's get real here...having a few vestige parts that are SAE is not going to be a deal breaker for me to own one of these special bikes, but it is a pain in the ass that it still is a mix and match when it didn't have to be. As anyone knows, working on a bike with two tool boxes open and two sets of tools side by side (and getting mixed up) is a real pain...I don't care who you are or how "good" you think you are. Especially when it just didn't have to be. And that is my next to the final word on this matter. (Message edited by jimidan on July 22, 2007) | ||
| Pushrodpete |
Wow. When I posted the original question, I figgered it was good for one or two quick replies at best. LOL... | ||
| Jimidan |
Mr. Donut sez: I'd prefer to have all metric and not the mix and match. The mixing and matching is a PITA. What's the rationale for mixing and matching metric and english? Careful there donut man, you are treading on thin naysayer ice. PS: Just how do you get the holes in all of those donuts...I have heard some wild tales about you guys! But what do I know about it...I am but a "troll". jimi (Message edited by jimidan on July 22, 2007) | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Guys, we might be missing a very valid point here. That being: if you do your own work on these mix and match machines, which almost all world class vehicles are nowadays you should be using proper procedures AND tools to get the job done correctly. If you do not have them, get them and like I said before if you have to have a dealer work on your "baby" it would be wise I believe to really choose a good dealer. I choose the first option. | ||
| M1combat |
You're peeing up a rope here Jimi... A wrench is a wrench. It doesn't matter if it has a "/" on it or not. It fits a specific size of bolt/nut and that's all there is to it. I wasn't calling out the anony. What they need to do to keep assembly lines working smoothly and reduce the chances for mistakes (and anonny's explanation makes perfect sense to me) is all good with me. I just plain don't see an issue with having mixed fasteners. It's a non-issue to me. A wrench is a wrench. I use the correct one for every other part on the bike... Why would I have trouble choosing the right one for one that's a different standard than the last one I was working with? I really don't see the issue here... A can see an issue with having two wheels on an assembly line that have different threads in them though... It's an assembly line. Humans do indeed make mistakes (I've even made one or two myself ;)). I'd also like to have the entire world's stock of spare XB wheels at my disposal should I bend one too. I like it . | ||
| Djkaplan |
I had both sets of tools already... and they were from a day when things weren't mixed. All this dramarama about mixed fasteners has been going on since the late 70's. The tool manufacturers are happy, no doubt. I just gotta look at it this way... it'll be old school cool to have standard tools when we're old. Or now... | ||
| Jackbequick |
".. has been going on since the late 70's..." Longer than that. My Father (1913-1975, RIP) owned inch, metric, and Whitworth wrenches and sockets. A legacy of a lifetime of working on cars. Race cars, sports cars, and family cars of many different kinds. My first bike was in 1962, a 1958 Triumph. It needed Whitworth wrenches. But I managed the routine work with fractional wrenches and adjustable wrenches. My first metric bike was in 1967. A Hodaka Ace 90 "to ride to work so the wife can have the car". It needs metric wrenches, I don't have them, can't afford them, but manage without them. Leap forward another 9 years. I'm stationed Spain, driving a VW squareback, and am somewhere in the procession of Montesas and Bultacos that I "ride to work so the wife can have the car". I finally get to add metric box ends and sockets to the collection. Woo Hoo! Finally! From that point on the tool collection just grows slowly, on both sides, in the same tool box(es) with some logical isolation. I live in a world that is mixed inch/metric so it all makes sense. The main reason that there are any metric fasteners on American made vehicles is that that we don't make all the parts here any more. If my choice is to pay twice as much for a bike or own more tools, I am cool with the latter. Using the right tools is easy. To refuse to deal logicallly with anything that simple would be silly. When and if America gets full and final metrification rammed down its throat, we'll have all metric Buells. And H-D's too. But we will still want to own all the same tools because it is going to take another two or three hundred years for the need for them to go away. To a fully addicted tool queer, life is a contest to see who can die owning the most tools. Jack | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Longer than that." Missed the point I was making. It wasn't until the late 70's that I had to open both tool boxes for one vehicle. Late 70's GM automobiles were the first vehicles I remember having metric and SAE fasteners. Some people refer the the miserable light duty TH200 GM transmission as the metric transmission because it had 'metric' stamped into the oil pan. The collective groan from mechanics could be heard coast-to-coast back then. This was almost 30 years ago, and people are still groaning. | ||
| Blake |
Repeated unpithy indignation = trolling. | ||
| Jimidan |
No nads, eh? jimi | ||
| Anonymous |
Fire them in 50 times per day five days a week with 6 screws each time, using power tools; I'm sure the flawless troll kings here could do it drunk, unfortunately we are mere sober mortals, so such is beyond us. | ||
| Court |
I guess I am missing something here. . .. I have a Cushman, Yamaha, Kawassaki, BMW and a Buell here. You are suggesting I should own only standard non-metric tools? Go talk to Yam/Kaw/BMW and get back to me on that. I went to Sears and for less than the price of a 2 cheeseburger dinner in NYC last week bought a set of metric combination wrenches, sockets and "t" handles. Has someone has run out of things to worry about? | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Jack, The way you distill down this big honking pile of tool-spooge is enlightening I, for one, appreciate your comments and your common sense. The comment you made sometime back in this thread about using metric for everything is 100% correct -- I've been doing it for years, and years, and years (spend a couple decades living in Europe and your tool collection will morph to the metric side of things.) I use, almost exclusively, my metrics to work on my 1969 American made car and my 1977 American made truck with no problems, no rounded busted nuts, etc, etc, etc. Bitching and moaning about metric v. SAE is absurd. G2 | ||
| Jimidan |
I went to Sears and for less than the price of a 2 cheeseburger dinner in NYC last week bought a set of metric combination wrenches, sockets and "t" handles. And do you keep them with the 3 screw drivers in that little drawer by the dishwasher in the kitchen? I have two complete set of metric and SAE tools in two tool chests, and one torque wrench cost me more than 10 of your NYC cheeseburgers, with Pace pecante sauce. I am not worried about having the right tools at home, but on a road trip where space is very limited. I am so worried that I am taking Anony's advice and NOT thinking about buying the new 1225R anymore! I am changing sports to something simpler-- canoeing. | ||
| Court |
If I was that ••••••• worried about anything . . . I'd walk. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
If I was that ••••••• worried about anything . . . I'd walk. No shit. I am changing sports to something simpler-- canoeing. Are you implying that canoeing is a sport? | ||
| Jimidan |
Hey, I am just following Anony's advice. Are you implying that canoeing is a sport? In whitewater it is. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Hey, I am just following Anony's advice. I believe it to be the soundest advice yet by Anony--and we all know how great the insight has been thusfar. Are you implying that canoeing is a sport? In whitewater it is. Yeah, I guess Lewis, Ed, Bobby & Drew probably felt the same way on the Cahulawassee until they met the mountain men  | ||
| Dbird29 |
 | ||
| Anonymous |
Wahl, and then it become a reel sport! Pig wrasslin! | ||
| Slaughter |
Wentworth Back in the day, we had 3 sets of tools... at lest those of us foolish to work on older DeHavilland aircraft. |
