| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Well, we have around 1/2 an hour before first practice for the 2007 US GP at Laguna, and again it will be a complete lottery as far as tyre choice is concerned, with riders having to choose tyres without having even turned a wheel on the resurfaced track with the 800cc bikes.. As Colin Edwards said in the pre race press conference, 'Here is a real game. New Surface, new bike. How in the hell do you know what tyres to choose! The biggest gamble of the weekedn takes place right now with the choices'. Given the severe chunking problems that Bridgestone experienced in last weekend's high temperatures in Germany, I hope that they get it sorted for this race or it could start to get dangerous (as well as boring for spectators). | ||
| Jimidan |
This rule is one on of the stupidest in all racing...and there are those that criticize AMA's way of doing it, but this takes the cake. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I like the tire rule, although I am a Michelin fan, and always buy ONLY Michelin tires for my bike. The thing is that, Bridgestone riders are finding the new tire rule, fair. Or at least they made no complaints so far, even after races that Michelins clearly performed better, for example Muggelo and Germany. Stoner had a bad tire performance in Germany, that ruined his chances for a win and a further increase of the points lead to Rossi. BUT Stoner, at Laguna, once again said that the tire rule is fair and that it levels the game for everyone. The only people that seem to dislike the new tire rule are Michelin riders (especialy Yamaha) like Rossi and Edwards. This indicates that so far they were enjoying an unfair tire advantage with last minute custom made tires. Now, that they do not have this advantage, they are complaining. Also Rossi's fans do not like the new tire rule. They cannot stand the fact that Rossi is not easily dominating all the races and QP and FP this season. As far as Laguna, the top riders that are in a current good form, or usualy do well in Laguna, they did OK so far. So the new tire rule, made no real negative impact so far. So what is so wrong with this new rule ? | ||
| Davegess |
I like the new rule. Needs tweaking but it is certainly more fair than the old setup were a handful of Michelin's top guys would get a new special tire on Sunday morning that was perfect for the conditions and the result of testing right up to Saturday afternoon. None of the other manufacturers had the ability to do that and even Michelin could only do it for a very few riders so only the favored few even had a chance. Now they need to tweak it a bit, perhaps have the selection made Friday afternoon and they can only select from the dozens of compounds brought to the track on Thursday. Either that or somehow prohibit Saturday night specials. | ||
| Jaimec |
Only one tweak is needed: Lock down the tire selection AFTER the first practice, not BEFORE! Having the tire selection locked down before the rider has a chance to check out the track makes this more like GAMBLING than anything else. Does any other race series limit the tire choices to the rider before the rider even has a chance to check out the track conditions or is this unique to MotoGP? | ||
| Trojan |
The current rules are not only making the racing a bit of a lottery, but are actually extremely dangerous. It is more luck than judgement that nobody has been hurt yet, with tyres disintegrating and grip levels disapearing suddenly like in Germany. To expect riders to wrestle 200mph motorcycles around a circuit that has been recently re-surfaced and where no testing has taken place is ludicrous. To have to choose tyre compounds before even first practice makes it dangerous. Luckily there were no accidents due to tyre issues at Laguna (although the Michelins were falling to pieces by the middle of the race) but I really think it is only a matter of time before this rule causes a serious injury or worse. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I think you are over-reacting for the tire rules being dangerous. The only danger I see, is Rossi loosing the "best rider ever" unofficial title, if he goes on like this. Maybe Sete Gibernau was actually right, when he said that ONLY Rossi was getting a "special" tire before every race in Europe. The rumor was that Michelin wanted Rassi to be the main adverising person for their campaign, so they were giving him an advantage....... Is this true?? From what we are watching this year, It might have been!!! I LOVE the new rule. Racing motorcycles in motoGP is a pretty dangerous sport, but well paid and also giving fame and glory. I know people that do MUCH more dangerous jobs for much less money and no fame! | ||
| Blake |
So if the MotoGP tire rules are so dangerous, how are the WSBK tire rules?  | ||
| Trojan |
So if the MotoGP tire rules are so dangerous, how are the WSBK tire rules? In WSB everyone uses exactly the same tyre so it is a completely level playing field. The Pirelli tyres have been extensively tested at every circuit that WSB visits and are a known quantity. If anything the WSB tyre rule has worked much better than the new MotoGP rules. In MotoGP we have the ludicrous situation of teams arriving at new circuits (and re-surfaced ciruits) with new bikes and no tyre data, then having to choose a tyre before they have even turned a wheel. Contrary to what people think, the MotoGP tyres rule hasn't made it equal for everyone at all. The top teams still have tyres individually made for each rider and get a much higher level of service than the lower ranking teams on the grid. However even the top teams and the tyre manufacturers are still having to guess what will work prior to first practice and keep fingers crossed that the tyre will hold together. Can you imagine what the teams would say in AMA if they were unable to tyre test prior to Daytona and had to arrive with the tyres they would race with despite having no practice? We have seen plenty of examples in MotoGP this year of both Michelin & Bridgestone tyres chunking, disintegrating and losing grip suddenly, and it is only luck that we have not seen an accident caused by tyre failure yet. Another factor is that the new rule has spoiled what promised to be a really close year for MotoGP in terms of spectator interest and spectacle. With the exception of a couple of races we have seen some of the best riders in the world (and those who should be fighting for the lead) struggling to stay in the top 10 let alone win. As for Rossi losing his 'best rider ever' title, I think Stoner has a way to go before he can even have a sniff of that tag. Stoner is a very talented rider, but is flattered this year because he is on the best bike on the best tyres, simple as that. I would like to see how Stoner got on riding the Yamaha. Take a look at how well all the other Yamaha riders have done compared to Rossi over the last couple of years and you'll see that he is head and shoulders above everyone else on the grid despite his results this year. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
For me, the tires affecting the results of the race, is adding excitement to the races. Tire development&competition is a major factor. It affect us, the simple sport rider, the most. I am sure that the tire war is eventually improving the tires that we are using. So MAYBE Bridges are better this year than Michelin. This will force Michelin to improve, then Bridgestone will improve and so on... Eventualy the tires we buy for our bikes will improve too. I do not get that some people find the single tire supplier in racing (like WSBK) a good thing. Maybe we should ask for a single bike manufacturer in each and every racing class?? I do not think so. MotoGP is not a GSXR Cup. It is about the best PACKAGE of rider&bike&tires&electronics&suspension&brakes&... .. winning. I liked that Pedrosa won in Germany, because Michelin tires were better. That forced Bridgestone to work hard to find a tire for high temperatures & rough surface endurance. They did it, and they did great in Laguna. I liked Bridgestone wet tires performance. I liked Rossi's race in Muggelo. I like the fact that so far this season 4 different riders have won......I wish for more riders and bikes to win. As far as the danger factor....... Was there a single accident 100% due to a tire suddenly failing due to the new rule?? ""Another factor is that the new rule has spoiled what promised to be a really close year for MotoGP in terms of spectator interest and spectacle. With the exception of a couple of races we have seen some of the best riders in the world (and those who should be fighting for the lead) struggling to stay in the top 10 let alone win."" I do not remember many people complaining when Rossi was easily winning on the RCV or the Yamaha and the Michelin tires. If Rossi's fans want someone to blame for the average season Rossi is having so far, is Rossi himself. It was his decision to stay with Yamaha. Maybe he was thinking that he can be champion on any bike, any tire, any team. The fact we will not see how good or bad Stoner would have been on the Yamaha, was Rossi's choice. He blocked Stoner's move to Yamaha last year, remember? | ||
| Trojan |
Was there a single accident 100% due to a tire suddenly failing due to the new rule?? Not yet, but you could have used the same argument that 'nobody has had a serious accident at Suzuka' up until Dajira Kato was killed there. What is clear is that tyres are not just wearing, but falling to peices during the latter part of the race. Most of the top guys (michelin & Bridgestone) have complained how dangerous they become is a very short space of time, and that it is like riding on ice. I enjoy exciting racing but I certainly do not enjoy seeing people injured or worse just because of a stupid and badly thought out rule. I do not get that some people find the single tire supplier in racing (like WSBK) a good thing WSB has been completely revitalised and rekindled since the introduction of the spec tyre rule, and has ended the complete domination of the elite factory teams. There are now 5 or 6 teams with bikes capable of running at the front of WSB and that has increased the popularity of the series with spectators and manufacturers alike. More factories will enter WSB next year and I predict you will see at least one MotoGP team make the switch to WSB next year. WSB has provided some of the closest racing we have seen all year, with the best riders battling for the lead instead of nursing tyres. My argument against the new rules has nothing to do with whether Rossi is winning or not by the way. It is purely based on safety issues and spectator interest. He blocked Stoner's move to Yamaha last year, remember? Not true i'm afraid. Just another story invented by the press. Rossi has gone on record a number of times to state that he really doesn't care who his team mate is and that he had no objections to Stoner (or Lorenzo) joining the team. What he did insist on though was that he retained his number one status in the team, and why not?. Stoner has to prove he can win a championship whereas Rossi has proved it time and again. This is what stopped Stoner joining Yamaha. | ||
| Jaimec |
I believe having multiple tire brands competing in MotoGP is good for the industry. Why should just one manufacturer get the benefits of what is essentially one of the most brutal testing laboratories on the planet for motorcycle tires? But I also agree with Matt in that the current rules are just plain STUPID. I fully understand the reason for wanting to cut costs by limiting the number of tires each rider can have for the race weekend. But to have them make that decision without even riding the track just ONCE is beyond comprehension. MAYBE if they were still running last year's 990cc bikes... but to force the riders to make a decision on what tires they'll use having NEVER ridden their current bikes on the track before? LUDICROUS! Doubly so on tracks that've been resurfaced since the last time they'd been on them. I'm afraid it'll take another Daijiro Kato incident to get them to change their minds, too. Foolishness! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It was the 1000cc Il4s that made the WSBK a popular series, and NOT the introdction of the just 1 tire manufacturer. | ||
| Trojan |
It was the 1000cc Il4s that made the WSBK a popular series, and NOT the introdction of the just 1 tire manufacturer. That is a bit of a moot point actually, as it can be argued that the big Japanese manufacturers only came back because the series was gaining popularity anyway due to the tyre rules. Remember when the Pirelli tyre rule was first introduced the 'big 4' threw their toys outr of the pram & said they wouldn't race in WSB any more. Now they are all back with no moans about tyres, and next year will see 'official' HRC and factory involvement I think. Either way, WSB now has more manufacturer support than ever before and that is growing all the time. None of the teams complain about the tyre rule and in fact almost everyone welcomes it. It gives engineers and teams a much easier time because they do not have to try and guess what tyres to use for any given circuit, and it means that the bikes can be developed to work for the whole season with the homologated tyre choices available. This brings down costs too. Pirelli's control tyre has improved enormously over the last two seasons and is now on par or better than the Dunlops used in domestic Superbike series. This has undoubtedly benefitted Pirelli road tyres. F1 now has a single make tyre format and again this has made the racing much closer than it was in the previous few seasons | ||
| Heads |
Trojan:stoner is doing a lot better than what you predicted at the begining of the season,also your predictions for bridgestone and that when motogp went back to the european circuits rossi would dominate.Well you wouldnt be the first one to be wrong,you just got to be man enough to say it.nobody compared rossi to stoner so get ya nickers out of a knot,just proves my point....all the people hard for rossi dont like it when he performs badly and look for other reason to lay blame. | ||
| Trojan |
Stoner/Ducati/Bridgestone are doing better than I thought they would (as are Suzuki), and of course I will admit to being wrong on that. No problem. However, that and my personal rider favourites has absolutely nothing to do with my stance on the tyre rules, which is purely down to common sense, spectator enjoyment and safety. I am an admirer of Valentin Rossi, but I have no preference who wins races provided it is a race and a straight fight for the win. I lose interest when riders who should be fighting for the lead (not just Rossi, but Hayden, Edwards and even Stoner on some occasions this year!) are hampered by tyres that are disintegrating due to silly, dangerous and adly thought out beaurocratic rules. Michelin did not have a stranglehold on the series before this year, contrary to what some people think. Ducati won GP's in the 990 era too you know. The new rules have achieved nothing. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Michelin had a clear advantage over Bridgestone the last years. But not many people cared, as long as Rossi was winning. I am a Ducati fan. I cared! Ducati was really having problems in some tracks, but it was their choice to stay with Bridges. So this year Bridges are performing better than before. Is it bad, that Bridges are better than Michelin in some tracks? If Rossi has to blame someone is himself, Yamaha, and his team's tire choices. He had a chance in Germany, but he wasted it. Is it Michelin fault????They say it was the M1 overheating, staying behind Randy's Kawa, that forced Rossi to make a fast move to overtake. What about last year?? Hayden was running Michelins, the same as Rossi. Was it the tires??? If he has to blame someone for last year.....It was his Yamaha being bad at the beggining of the season, breaking down 2 times and once destroying his front tire due to vibrations.... I still think , Michelin are generally better this year than Bridgestone. Rossi can switch to Bridges next year, and prove his point. It is just Ducati really making a big difference. Of course they found themselves a brilliant rider to use 100% of the machine's potential. Actually I am sure Rossi could have gone to Ducati next year, but he chose Yamaha for 2008. | ||
| Heads |
people just dont give ducati and stoner credit..they would rather say that rossi,pederosa etc are greatly affected bye the tire rules...they all run to the same rules, unless ducati are breaking the rules, all is fair in that case. the best man and best machine are leading the championship at this point,simple as that...Livio Suppo said "casey is a genius,its not just that he is fast,but his ability to manage his race strategy and remain calm under pressure" and i agree this is why he is leading the championship | ||
| Jaimec |
Last year Rossi won almost three times as many races as Nicky... but his bike had reliability issues and gave him far more DNFs than he's had in a long time. The fact that it went to the very last race to determine the winner speaks VOLUMES for Rossi's ability. Likewise, look where Rossi is right now compared to anyone else on the YZF-M1 for a better idea. I'm not detracting Stoner. The fact that Capirossi, a proven competitor, isn't doing anywhere near as well on an identical bike speaks volumes in itself. Spin it any way you want, the tire rule is ludicrous no matter who is ahead. | ||
| Trojan |
I still think , Michelin are generally better this year than Bridgestone. How do you come to that conclusion? The results certainly tell another story. Last year Bridgestone could have done what Michelin did and flown special tyres to tracks the night before (did Michelin fly tyrs to races outside Europe?). They just chose not to and moaned about it until the rules were changed. Now we have a situation where neither Michelin nor Bridgestone knows what the tyre is going to do before the race, and that is quite frankly ridiculous in the world's premier race series. Rossi (and others) has been critical of the tyre rule even before the season began, and regardless of his results. He has not changed his mind when he has won but has kept consistently to the same reasoning for not liking the new rule. So to say he is complaing simply because he is not winning is untrue. He more than anyone in the paddock wants a close fought and interesting championship for the spectators. The championship this year will be decided by tyres and not rider ability, and this will colour Stoner's victory if he wins (even though he may well have won anyway). I want to see the championship decided by a race between the best riders, not the tyre manufacturers. This is not about individual rider results. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"He more than anyone in the paddock wants a close fought and interesting championship for the spectators. " As long as he is winning. "Rossi (and others) has been critical of the tyre rule even before the season began, and regardless of his results" I have not heard any other rider complaining... OK Pedrosa made some commends after Laguna. I guess Michelin and Bridgestone know a lot about building racing tires, so this "I have no data for the 800cc, how can I make a tire?" makes little sence to me. | ||
| Jaimec |
"I have not heard any other rider complaining..." Then you haven't been listening. | ||
| M1combat |
I say lock the tires into what the suppliers bring before the bikes move, but let the teams choose which tires they want after the first practice. I like the underlying intent of the rule but in certain cases I agree it can be dangerous and advantageous for either manufacturer. That said... Racing is dangerous. They all know it and take the risks. | ||
| Trojan |
"I have not heard any other rider complaining..." Edwards, Hopkins, Melandri, Capirossi, Pedrosa, Elias have all criticised the new rules during the season so far.....it isn't just Rossi and it isn't just Michelin riders. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The riders that loose the races, are always complaining and making excuses. It is human nature to look for excuses. I guess they cannot complain about the motorcycle itself, because it is the moto team that pays their salary. Also it is not easy to blame themselves, they are too selfish for that. So it is easy and "safe" for them to blame it on the tires. I still think the rule is safe and fair. I am sure the teams can choose fron super-soft to super-hard tires that are suitable for every condition that might appear in the weekend. I am sure they have the experience to choose wisely, based on the available data, like weather forecast, track's surface condition, etc. Rain tires are unlimited. If sometimes they choose the wrong tires, despite the data available, then racing is more interesting and satellite teams have a chance to beat the factory teams. e.g. Barros did better than Stoner in Muggelo. So what is this all about the new rule???? What about Yamaha ? They have not tried pneumatic valves yet! Can you believe this? It is no wonder it is over 20Hp down compared to the others. Rossi could not overtake dePuniet's Kawa in Germany down the straight despite better drive out of the corner. Then the M1 was overheating, so he tried a "stupid" move on the brakes, and crashed...... Was it the tires?? I find it SUPER that finaly DUCATI is having a strong chance for the championship. Thank you Casey for making this possible !! | ||
| Jaimec |
You really AREN'T paying attention are you? Can't blame the machinery? You've missed all of the complaints from the Honda riders over their machinery all season long? We KNOW you like Ducati, but take the blinders off already! Rossi has been saying ALL SEASON that his Yamaha needs more power, Melandri has been critical of Honda all season, etc. I'm not detracting Stoner's skill to get him where he is now. If it was just the tires and machinery then Capirossi would be right up there with him. But you have GOT to get your "Everybody hates Stoner cause he's winning" hat off and see what is really going on. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So, all the riders on Jap machinery is complaining. The Japs really F#@$! up this time! GO DUCATI! | ||
| Heads |
hey Jaimec,they where bagging stoner before he started winning...i have also heard stoner complain and loud,the difference is he is the best rider out there at the moment. he is just doing what he has to do...and doing it well | ||
| Jaimec |
He has certainly stepped up his game from last year. Last year he was known more for spectacular crashes than winning, but if you don't occasionally crash, you're not pushing yourself as hard as you can. I'm just thinking LCR Honda must be kicking themselves for replacing him with Carlos Checa! |
