| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
I sense a bit of trolling but let me add two words to bring some facts back to the discussion. I think Court has done all that he can do.Remember,he's NOT a Buell representative or employee. We're left to our own devices now. | ||
| Ducxl |
Trolling....hmmmm,i better be careful(really). Thanks for all of your input.The thread over at the XB forum seems pretty persuasive in the sense of giving concrete solutions.I may go that route.Even though i've ZERO modifications to my Buells'.They're perfect(almost,except for defective XB lighting)as is.They need no modification,perfect as is. | ||
| Court |
Well the "left to our own devices" is so laughable, in view of Buell's history of supporting customers 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 years after bikes are out of warranty as to be dismissed as pure taunting. If I were an XB owner, it'd be tearing me up . . . I mean, I'm a total light freak anyway who'd opt for the carbon arcs if they had them. . . a leftover from my cross country riding days. I think few folks have an appreciation for the time required to research, find what the root cause is, redesign, test (gov't required), obtain vendors (not sure I'd want the old guys back), get certified by the regulatory folks in 17 countries (I doubt French headlights are working much better than yours), get all the certifications, manufacture and distribute. I've been through this before. The worst thing to do is to make matters worse. Th4e goal is to fix the PROBLEM, not the symptom. I'm confident in the folks at Buell and feel, in all candor, as entitled to my opinion based on experience, as other folks are in theirs. Big difference is that my opinion doesn't shift with the winds. It'd be a PITA but one of the great things about Badweb is that I'd say there are at least 5,000 folks who are well aware and have been put on "constructive notice" to exercise heightened caution based on the reports from owners. | ||
| Ducxl |
My sincere apologies,for trolling you out. I'm no fan of the aftermarket,i'm content and have faith in a factory solution.I'd probably purchase replacement reflectors when mine get too burnt.THAT is laughable.My friends ridicule me for my "anti-mod" attitude.. | ||
| Ridrx |
"shifted"?... I thought I had been quite CONSISTENT in my view on this matter... FIREBOLT HEADLIGHTS SUCK! Court, I understand that it will take some time, red tape cannot be avoided and would likely only lead to another ill performing part. The fact Buell helped out LOTS of folks so long AFTER the warranty period is commendable, but how long had Buell been aware of those problems? If after say...5yrs of dependable service my rear shock has a catastrophic failure (hypothetical) and Buell replaces it,then good on them...BUT, if that same shock had been giving me trouble since the bike(bought new)was less than 1yr old and I had to wait for YEARS for a solution that didn't require MORE of MY money, I would be (read: AM)more than just a little upset. There are posts on this very forum about this very issue dating back to at least 2004! I feel 3yrs is plenty of time to have started this process already. It's been said that on occasion the folks at Buell peruse this site(among others to be sure), so why did it take 3yrs to even LOOK at the problem? I've already said I'm NOT going the tin foil route, I'm also NOT cutting up the fairing on a NEW bike to install aftermarket headlamps(Hella 90mm 1 of 2 DOT legal kits I can find) which leaves only the second Hella kit...50mm DOT legal and does not require hacking into my NEW bike. However, while the low beam is available in Halogen for about $80.00, the high beam is HID only and rings in at...$400.00 then theres the associated connectors, etc. So in order to have a matching pair of DOT legal lights that don't require chopping into my NEW bike is gonna set me back a cool $600.00!!! WHICH I DON'T HAVE! So, unless Buell wants to make 3 mos of my payments, or buy me the Hella kit, I'm STUCK with a NEW bike that cannot be safely ridden after dark for the next ? years? I can only guess that since BMC hasn't officially acknowledged the problem to date they ain't gonna make my payments, they ain't gonna buy me roadworthy lights, and they ain't gonna break their back trying to fix it with the "new" models coming out in just months(gonna have a whole NEW set of issues to deal with). Perhaps you would care to offer some of YOUR experiences and suggestions as to safe riding practice in the dark with NO lights...cause that's where a bunch of us are! | ||
| Rd3501 |
Ok how about this...I think Buell is missing an opportunity in getting my headlights and here is why.....I am the original owner, never change out the headlight bulbs or even looked at them until this year..still stock..and the bike only has 5,638 miles total on it...Production date on the side of my frame says May 2002...So if mine is having problems and the 2007 models are having problems and look much worse than mine. I would have to say there is only two ideas that comes to mind. 1. Who ever at Buell who engineered this part did it incorrectly. 2. Or who ever Buell contracted to make the part for them has been steadly making them worse and worse over the years. And right from production they started to send Buell bad ones..Which if this is the case I would go back to this company and make them flip the bill for all the bad headlights they push on Buell. I do know that Buell did a running change on the headlights in mid 2005 with the different defusser. So did anyone at that time see there was a problem? Or did they miss it.. I know it takes time to look into everything and see where the problem started. Ok, Buell I will give you some help. at least a problem with them since May 2002 if that helps you Buell. Pull my vin if it helps... I was inquiring about the XB9S or XB12S not to be an ass..but to see if it is only with the firebolts or is it all the running lines. | ||
| Ducxl |
THe question is who is responsible for the Quality defect.Was Buells' design requirement flawed? Or did the supplier offer a defective product? There are numerous quality systems designed to protect the consumer from such defects. ISO:9000/QS9002 and the newest standard called ISO/TS 16949. One of Buells suppliers is clearly in violation of quality procedure and should be held responsible.They've got a commitment to Buell to supply defect free parts&services in the form of a contract.Maybe we should contact that supplier directly? Buell should serve that supplier with an "8D" report to require that supplier to state a corrective action to prevent recurrence and to immediately supply Buell with an updated part for the massive failure in the field. There are already systems in place to protect the consumer.UNLESS OF COURSE BMC DOES NOT SUBSCRIBE TO QUALITY PROCEDURE. | ||
| Ridrx |
I don't feel "protected".  | ||
| M_singer |
Court. Correct me if I am wrong. It is my understanding that headlight compliance in the USA is much like helmet compliance. In other words…the OEM’s are required to equip vehicles with headlights that conform to FMVSS but there is no actual submission, testing or approval of the design. If this is the case then you are overstating the complexity of correcting this problem. Ether way there is simply no excuse for it taking years to fix the SAFETY problem with these motorcycles. Saying that it isn’t easy or pointing out the failures of other manufactures is IMO very lame. No personal disrespect meant to you. We disagree on this subject. | ||
| Ridrx |
Court, I'm still waiting for those "riding blind" safety tips... | ||
| Court |
Marty: No disrespect taken or perceived. This is a discussion board. If we all agreed on everything, we'd be democrats and life would be dull. We're here to discuss. In addition, I'm not certain we disagree. As I mentioned (by the way I'm not sure who your other manufacturers comment was directed to but I don't recall ever dissing any other manufacturer as a means to justify anything Buell did or did not do) I'm a total light freak. In fact one of my Buells is having some special lighting mods done this next week. If I owned one of these Firebolts I'd be pissed and impatient. I do know, however, that there is a complex process in gathering data to make certain you understand the root cause of the problem (I think I've used the example of Ford and the Crown Vic trunk lights as they spent $14,000,000 chasing the wrong problem for a couple years) and engineering/sourcing/deploying a fix. Your information about the FMVSS is "kinda" right. There is no submission required to them. But that may mislead some to draw an inaccurate parallel between European CE (self-Certification) vs. TÜV Rheinland GS Mark which has been totally (roughly translated) "safety tested". Essentially, as you read through the 108 pages of 49CFR571 §108 you’ll see constant reverences to testing and certifying certain things. Like acoustic emissions testing, the feds don't require the testing, they require, as a condition precedent to approval that you submit certification that the tests have been satisfactorily performed by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) and that the promulgated standards are met. To quote one of the firms:
Any manufactured, as a simple matter of liability avoidance, will have done and documented all this as well. Okay . . . say we've done complied with the testing requirements spelled out in Section 7, which covers bikes in the United States, which is less than 50% of the Buells sold. We've got 17 other countries, including the Standards Council of Canada (SCC) which will require the cTUV mark and as an example. . .
It get's a little better to, because as you know in 2006 the SAE published document J575 in November which changed the test methods for Lighting Devices on vehicles less than 2032mm wide. Then they came along the following month and published J1735 attempting to "harmonize" conflicting requirements for headlight beam pattern testing. If you are among the TEN Buell owners who has registered a complaint on your 2003 Buell . . do you want it brought to the 2003 standards (as required by law . . .time of sale) or do you want it in conformance with the new standards like the ONE complaint registered for a 2007 Buell? My point is that it's a bigger universe and a bigger problem than simply running to the Ace Hardware in Columbus and buying a headlight upgrade kit. I think it's to Buell's credit that the moment I first heard anything, just a couple months ago, I consolidated all the information and within 10 days owners who'd registered concerns had been contacted. As an OWNER (I'm not dissing BMW. . .I am a genuinely pissed off owner) I can assure you that we in the "Chain Gang" have been trying to get BMW to fess up to the problems with the F650 for years. Buell, although perhaps slow in the eyes of a pissed off owner, has, to date, done what looks like a stellar job. I have no idea what they are doing or if they are doing anything. No my role and I'd never expect anyone to share proprietary information. But, I can extrapolate based on the things Buells done in the past and I, again my opinion, would take some comfort in that. Court P.S. - Here are the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards you referred to. Note as you go through there all the references to "tested in a laboratory", "shall demonstrate", etc. Although the feds don't DO the testing, it MUST be done prior to submittal. | ||
| Fullpower |
why not just lash a pair of PIAA 004X auxilliaries to the fork legs? They come with a relay, a large gob of wire, and they use easily sourced H3 bulbs.  | ||
| Diablobrian |
I actually considered doing something like that where the turn signals mount, and then drilling a few holes in the reflector and wiring in some amber LEDs to make them dual purpose lights. It's another project that I haven't gotten around to...yet. | ||
| Ridrx |
Court, perhaps you would like to read this. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=345621#POST345621 | ||
| Rd3501 |
So was out late last night and almost died because of these freaken headlights in the canyon. The heard of 6,000 pounds of deer cross the street in front of me and I couldnt see them because these lights suck so bad.. So I broken down and picked up some new headlights... FYI I tried to paint the inside of the headlights with chrome paint..you guess it. It turned brown/yellow and no shine on the paint inside. So trying to repaint them chrome didnt work for me...... Here is the difference from 2003 and 2007. Blake and Court..take note....Buell has looked and redesigned the lights now twice and still cant get it right.. Or you could call it an update or what ever but again Buell didnt correctly fix the RIGHT problem.. 2003 headlights were $35.00 for both the high and the low beams.. In 2005 1/2 Buell up the price on the high beam because they put a small circle about 1" of a kind of deffuser/scratched/bubble lens.. Now the price was $55.00 for the high beam. But low beam was still $35.00 because of no changes... IN 2007 Buell just upped the price for the low beam to $55.00.. The reason for this is that now the low beam also has some kind of defusser/scratched/bubbled glass about 1" in the middle of the lens. Almost exactly like the high beam lens but not so bubbly.. Also they changed the metal defusser inside the lens. From anadize gold to plain metal... Now it takes up half of the lens inside. As the old one told up only 1/4 of the lens.. So price has gone up on both lens.. And both lens have been changed...But the original problem never got fixed.. Here is the really bad part. I took apart the new headlights and I can say without a doubt that quality control is in the toilet. There was dust and dirt painted into the lens on both.. And the inside finish was not even smooth because of this. I would say for sure that my 2003 lens inside were smooth as glass no dust or dirt in the paint when I took them apart. So the NEW lights just look like junk. Even my $1.00 Coleman light from WalMart looks like a rolex inside compared to these Buell lights...Someone should be fired for letting these get by quality control. So there you have it Buell has made two different changes on the headlights and still didnt fix the first problem. The coating coming off the inside of the lights...So trying different defussers on the lens to try and correct the lighting issue didnt work.. Buell if you are reading this....IT IS THE COATING ON THE INSIDE OF THE LENS THAT IS NOT WORKING........... I will try and post some pictures for everyone if they are not to large.. Ok I did my part...found out the changes and posted them...paid $127.00 for new headlights that I can throw in the trash in about 6 months....damn.... If my typing is off I am in a hurry sorry... | ||
| Blake |
Philip, Do you know how to post a hyperlink to another existing post on BadWeB? | ||
| Rd3501 |
Blake, Haha..you make me laugh..I have a hard time just typing English these days. Does anyone even use a pen and paper anymore?? I know where the power button on the computer is..does that help..lol No I do not know how to down size photos or hyperlink..But willing to learn...Know of any books at Barnes and Noble I can read or some website? | ||
| Ridrx |
Rd, Right click the far right icon over the posters name on the post you want to link to, click copy shortcut, then when you want to insert it in your post right click and choose paste, like this...http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=17&post=907318#POST907318 ...nothing to it. | ||
| Tintin74 |
Rd3501> What you describe seems consistent with what I see on mine from the outside. At first I wanted to clean them but after reading this I'm not sure it's worth taking them apart and then putting them back on (well maybe that would have me forced to adjust them and this might be a good thing). As for Buell's way of troubleshooting issues, this seems consistent with the way they dealt with the sidestand issue... The original issue was the sidestand switch design, they removed the sidestand switch so now people hit the ground with the sidestand one in a while and thus the sidestand axle design had to be updated... Guess what's next, the sidestand mounting point is probably the next thing that will fail. Still the issue could be solved by having a working and reliable sidestand switch... As for resizing images, good old MS Paint for WinXP does a good job at it (Use ctrl+w). It's a crude tool that will only work from a % so you might need to use a calculator to get that % right if you're looking for an exact dimension. Otherwise just give it a couple of tries until it fits (I would advise using Ctrl+z to undo after each try to make sure you don't accumulate the images "deformations" from each resize). | ||
| Ridrx |
Court, The thread that Towjam started has ALREADY been archived(less than a week). Were you able to find out anything on the headlamps? I'm not going to rant, just curious since you did say Towjam's question "deserved an answer". PLEASE? | ||
| Ducxl |
*Bump* | ||
| Diablobrian |
I wish we could get some kind of running status board that would keep us informed of progress as it's being made. People are being made anxious by what appears to be a lack of action due to the corporate curtain that blocks our view. While I do have faith that something is happening it is frustrating to be kept "out in the cold". Any info at all on progress would be extremely encouraging at this point. I'm considering going with the Hella lights, but I don't want to waste my money if a fix is imminent. | ||
| Damnut |
 | ||
| Ridrx |
+1 | ||
| Davegess |
People are being made anxious by what appears to be a lack of action due to the corporate curtain that blocks our view. While I do have faith that something is happening it is frustrating to be kept "out in the cold". For an issue like this there would not be a CORPORATE CURTAIN but more accurately a FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CURTAIN and LEGAL REQUIREMENT CURTAIN. You all have to realize that issues like this can take some time to figure out AND one can get in all sorts of legal trouble by announcing thing prematurely. I am confident that this issue is getting ALL the attention it deserves but it could take a good long time to get all the answers and put all the details in place. I am very confident that this is being worked on. Patience is a virtue | ||
| Ducxl |
Patience is a virtue And all life has an end | ||
| Court |
My PERSONAL opinion is that Dave Gess is dead accurate. | ||
| Kuuud |
Ditto. I just don't want to cough up the cash for new headlights and have Buell announce a solution one week later (normally my luck in these type of things). Bret | ||
| Davegess |
Ditto. I just don't want to cough up the cash for new headlights and have Buell announce a solution one week later (normally my luck in these type of things). Can't help you there, i have no idea, just opinions | ||
| Diablobrian |
Kuud has voiced my exact concerns. As I've said before I have faith that something is happening, I just wish I had a "It will all be resolved by (date)" I've recently begun riding my bike more than I had previously and the headlights are becoming more of a concern. Especially after riding with Steve_Mackay with his (DOT approved) Hella head light. Even though he only had the low beam on his working it put out much more light than my 'bolt with both beams lit. That pushed my sense of urgency on this matter up a notch or two because it solidified some of my concerns that had previously been a little less pressing because I did not really conceptualize how different the output was. |
