| Author | Message | ||
     Kuuud |
At Homecoming Erik was telling the tale of the history of BMC. When talk turned to the S2, he spoke of timeless style but also basically said he disliked the 1" bars and HD controls. A neccessity at the time, I believe, not his first choice of components. I actually never repaired the self-cancelling signals on my HD Bagger when they failed. Rode it that way for a couple years b4 selling it. (I don't need an Electra-Glide...that's what I have a Uly for). Bret | ||
| Jimidan |
Some folks have a way of bending reality to their own vision that is truly amazing. Care to elaborate or are you practicing on being just as esoteric as Court? Keep trying...you are getting there  ! jimidan | ||
| Doerman |
jimidan said: What I said was that the S2 was "...the last great machine Erik designed before the HD bean-counters got involved after the take-over." I think it is because HD got involved that Buell could afford to develop the 1125 and do a slew of other things. So it is a very good thing the HD "bean counters" got involved. I serious doubt, although I have no data, that Buell could have developed the machine based on its independent balance sheet. What HD has done (financially and logistically) for Buell has some similarities with what TPG did for Ducati a few years back. Asbjorn | ||
| Jimidan |
That's patently inaccurate information. Gads. . . I'm sitting in a library writing about them today, have a fairly impressive collection of research data from a variety of sources and somehow missed all that. One very interesting fact came to light about Buell recalls yesterday. Recalls are one of the most impressive elements of Buells glorious history. I'd urge you to study your sources as carefully as I do mine. This probably isn't the proper thread to debate this issue, but what the heck... Research data? You don't need no stinkin' research data to know about the recalls and how they negatively affected the company...and still are. You just had to be alive with a pulse during the time period. Ask any HD/Buell dealership (or better yet, any former Buell dealership) how "impressive" the recalls were for his Buell business. Devastating! To state that "recalls are one of the most impressive elements in Buell's glorious history", is like trying to put a happy face on cannibalism. How many reliablity/durability questions still come up on this (and other) boards, magazine articles, etc., over them? The recalls cost Buell $millions in past and future sales. Even with the excellent record that the XBs have ('cept for them pesky belts breaking...what is up with that?), the early daze after the takeover continue to have an impact on potential buyers. And much of it was unnecessary...see the SHOWA shock for example. If they had not tried to cut corners and designed it like the final generation in the first place, it would not have been an issue. Snide remarks regarding reliability issues continue to be made all over the web about Buells over those recalls. See Blake's comment: "Some folks have a way of bending reality to their own vision that is truly amazing. Who was he referring to? | ||
| Jimidan |
I think it is because HD got involved that Buell could afford to develop the 1125 and do a slew of other things. So it is a very good thing the HD "bean counters" got involved. I serious doubt, although I have no data, that Buell could have developed the machine based on its independent balance sheet. What HD has done (financially and logistically) for Buell has some similarities with what TPG did for Ducati a few years back. Asbjorn I do not dispute that HD's R&D money has been a good thing...I am talking about the impact of the "bean counters" on the tube framed bikes, and was referring to the S3 particularly. That part is easy to document as I did above (cheaper shock, forks, bodywork, etc.). However, one has to wonder if (how long?) HD kept Buell from developing the 1125R engine for a period of time, even though the market has been there for it all along. jimidan | ||
| Court |
Buell had, in the same period, a fraction of the recalls of other manufacturers. I think it was more pronounced in the HD dealerships where they pretty much deal in wares sorted about in the WWII period. None of the recalls were ever a threat to Buell and in 1999 when Buell did something many (cough, cough. . BMW) should have done, they made history and forever established themselves as a company ready, willing, able and committed to standing by their product many years past the warranty. Just ain't so . . . it makes fun internet talk, just ain't fact. Esoteric? . . .you think I'm esoteric? Now I have to go look it up . . . damn you. Or did you, mayhaps, have meant to say "assoteric"? | ||
| Iamike |
I never liked the self-cancelling signals on my sporty. Either they would turn off before I turned or they would stay on too long after the turn. I think how Buell and the shops worked with me on the recalls is one of the reasons I still ride a Buell. The minor ones were handled ok but the shock was the best. Even though my S3 didn't really qualify for the recall the Waterloo shop changed it out anyway (and with no $100 fee like some got charged). | ||
| Fresnobuell |
This may be a silly question, but are all auto turn signal cancellers a timed sort of thing or is it like on a car where it works off the movement of the steering wheel (with a bike obviously its handlebars or forks). | ||
| Jackbequick |
Fresno, The H-D ones use some kind of little modules with a logic circuit in them. They basically count the "beats" from the speedo output to determine the speed and keep them going a longer time at slow speeds and a shorter time at higher speeds. Seems to work okay. I've found that if you hold the button in they will flash continuously until you let it go, then they start the timing and cycle as per the logic. So if I want some extra action I hold the button in and then release it when I want to start downshifting and braking and need my thumb back. And you can cancel one any time by pressing the same button again while it is blinking. I can get you the detailed, accurate description out of my service manual if you'd like to read it. Jack | ||
| Fresnobuell |
jack, thanks for the insight. No more detail is required, I just wanted an overview. WHen I first bought the Buell, I was actually shocked that I had to manually cancel the turn signals (along with the fact that there wasn't a gas Gauge!) I now find myself pushing the yellow cancel button all the time--like a nervous habit or something. I guess we all feel sorta like and a$$ when we go for a block or two with a blinker on.... | ||
| Blake |
Jimi, "Care to elaborate or are you practicing on being just as esoteric as Court? Keep trying...you are getting there! " I don't know whether to say "woohoo!  " or "ouch!  ." Seriously though. I think your characterization of the S2 versus the S3 or the S1 and M2 are just inaccurate, a bit overgeneralized, not entirely off base but mostly. Court, what does "esoteric" mean? Did he mean "sexarific"? That's what all the ladies say about us isn't it?  | ||
| Jackbequick |
I've never thought of a gas gauge on a bike as anything you could believe or trust. Between the gas sloshing around and general difficulties of making a clear decision from an analog gauge, I just don't need one. The trip odometer works perfectly for me and is always right on the money. Jack | ||
| Jimidan |
Buell had, in the same period, a fraction of the recalls of other manufacturers. I think it was more pronounced in the HD dealerships where they pretty much deal in wares sorted about in the WWII period. None of the recalls were ever a threat to Buell and in 1999 when Buell did something many (cough, cough. . BMW) should have done, they made history and forever established themselves as a company ready, willing, able and committed to standing by their product many years past the warranty. Just ain't so . . . it makes fun internet talk, just ain't fact. Er ah, I am talking about the REASON that the recalls were instituted, i.e., poor quality parts that were under-designed (cost cutting measures?) to withstand the stresses of living in the same chassis with a paint shaker. Court (and others) is talking about the exemplary WAY Buell handled the recalls, i.e., by stepping up to the plate and accepting responsibility for these defective parts without having to be forced to do so by the NTSB. While these reasons are somewhat related, they are not the same thing. Also, the fact that other manufacturers were also having recalls was a moot point for most consumers, the motorcycle media and the general public, as that story was never mentioned in the same breath, paragraph, or sound bite. The reasons for the recalls are still what Buell is famous for, unfortunately...just ask any of the legions of former Buell dealership, they will tell you. The damage was done and the reliability issues STILL remain, even after all these years. The XBRR's "stellar" DNF racing record didn't help alleviate this perception in the biking community much either, although as we know, it was an unrelated issue that seems to be lost on the biking community. If you really believe that the recalls were a good thing for Buell, I would suggest that you need to get out more (and read other non-Buell motorcycle sites and talk to non-Buell owners). I can still remember the day I walked into Daytona HD during bike week and told the parts guy, "I have a Buell...", to which he quipped, "That's YOUR problem!", to guffaws all around. I felt a foot tall. He understood what the recalls meant to his business. Hopefully, this new 1125R will send the recall "glory days" to the trash bin forever. It should, if they can just keep belts on it  . It would be nice if Buell can be known for its reliable bikes (like Honda is) instead of the company "ready, willing, able and committed to standing by their product many years past the warranty" because of defective parts. | ||
| Jimidan |
Seriously though. I think your characterization of the S2 versus the S3 or the S1 and M2 are just inaccurate, a bit overgeneralized, not entirely off base but mostly. Thanks for being so specific with your elaboration...it was right on the money (if we were talking about wooden nickels!).  | ||
| Rde48 |
I rode a sportster for a few years and liked the auto cancel signals, now on the S3 I find myself forgetting to cancel the signals now and then. So I see this as a safety feature. I make a right turn and forget to turn the signal off. Then up the road a cager looking to make a left, onto the road that I am riding on, sees that my turn signal is on and pulls out in front of me. Auto canceling signals could save lives, lives of fellow buellers. That is how this should be looked at. | ||
| Spiderman |
Er ah, I am talking about the REASON that the recalls were instituted, i.e., poor quality parts that were under-designed (cost cutting measures?) to withstand the stresses of living in the same chassis with a paint shaker. It wasn't a poor design in most cases. For the shock it was bad metal and quality controle. There was a batch of bad aluminum that they used to make the rear shock with and at the the time, QC at that shock plant was bad. SO BMC could not verify which shocks had the bad metal in it and rather be safe than sorry they did the right thing and recalled them all. It could have only been two or two thousand shocks but BMC didn;t want to take that risk. As for recalls still haunting the BMC. This is the first time I have heard about the old recals on this board in at least a year and the other than Erik talking about them at HC the ladt time I heard about them off the board was '03. It seems to be just a few "hangers on" that keep bringing them up... | ||
| Jimidan |
It wasn't a poor design in most cases. For the shock it was bad metal and quality controle. There was a batch of bad aluminum that they used to make the rear shock with and at the the time, QC at that shock plant was bad. SO BMC could not verify which shocks had the bad metal in it and rather be safe than sorry they did the right thing and recalled them all. It could have only been two or two thousand shocks but BMC didn;t want to take that risk. As for recalls still haunting the BMC. This is the first time I have heard about the old recals on this board in at least a year and the other than Erik talking about them at HC the ladt time I heard about them off the board was '03. It seems to be just a few "hangers on" that keep bringing them up... Spidey, I think you are talking about the S2 WP shock...and with that, I totally agree. However, I am talking about the so-called 'recall shock' that was issued after the HD take over...you remember, the one that had to be recalled two more times to get it right. Simply take a look at the first recall shock (you remember, the spindly 16.5" one)and then the fix-it kit (you remember, the Gemini nose cone looking thingy) and then the final iteration of the beefy 14.5" Showa, and then tell me once again (with a straight face, that is) that it wasn't about poor design and cost cutting. I had one of each...didn't you? At least Buell recognized it finally and corrected it...but no telling how many current and potential customers they drove away (maybe almost as many as with those infernal leaking paper rocker box and base gaskets!). As for recalls still haunting the BMC, you are correct that they haven't been mentioned much on this board in the past year...the operative words being "on this board". Lord knows we, the Buell faithful, are trying our best to forget those days...although if you listen to our buddy Court, 'dem were da' days to be celebrated...Buell's finest hour. Read Speedzilla sometimes if you need a reminder about their impact on the general perceptions of the biking community regarding Buells. Let's hope that the new generation bikes makes everybody forget all about them. jimi | ||
| Anonymous |
jimidan, People who haven't gotten over the tube frame recalls have a serious axe to grind that has nothing to do with quality. These are people who hate H-D and Buell, and probably hate American products in general. And if you think the multiple recalls were driven by corporate greed, you are dazed and confused. They were seriously expensive. And those that were re-done, were due to the mad rush put on to get a solution out to make riders able to ride safely. I can't go into the details of what happened, but we went to Showa not because they were inexpensive, but because they had the quality control to identify whether they made mistakes. The reason the second recall came had nothing to do with Showa, but everything to do with bad internal communiction that allowed us to miss a vehicle change that affected the shock life. Doing it several times is not a cost cutting measure. Having a customer drag his $20,000 Gold Wing down to Fred's Welding shop to get the frame patched, and then patched again is corporate greed. Or how about a certain Austrian motorcycle company that waited until they had over 3000 (?!!!) complaints of fuel leakage before they declared a recall? Other than minor recalls, the XBs and Blasts have been great. In short, anything new from Buell designed in the last ten years. I'm not going to tell you to get over it, that's your choice, but the facts are real. Where are the bitches about the Japanese product recalls that are so much greater than Buells and so much worse? No, it's pure and simple troll-incited bashing of Buell, unbased on fact. We'll never change the minds of those who choose to be driven by ignorance. | ||
| Bobup |
so....back to the question put forth in my original posting..... why not have self canceling turn signals? as mention elsewhere in this thread..it could be viewed as a safety thing thanks to all for keeping this thread the longest one in this part of the forum LOL | ||
| Blake |
Didn't figure yourself as such an instigator, did you? | ||
| Jimidan |
I'm not going to tell you to get over it, that's your choice, but the facts are real. Where are the bitches about the Japanese product recalls that are so much greater than Buells and so much worse? No, it's pure and simple troll-incited bashing of Buell, unbased on fact. We'll never change the minds of those who choose to be driven by ignorance. Thanks for the history lesson, although I offer the following slight rebuttal. While I agree that most of those who haven't gotten over the recall issues are Buell bashers, I do not think that their outlook was necessarily baseless. There were recalls and that is a fact. That fact obviously tainted their perceptions of the brand, as has been documented, ad nauseum, in nearly every motorcycle mag this side of Fuell. I have always contended that Buell did not get a fair shake in the media about this...but that is life. Buell recall/reliability issues are STILL popping up all over, and not just by certifiable Buell or American products haters. If fact, a thread is currently going on over on American Thunderbike Club's page...see http://www.americanthunderbike.org/cgi-bin/ultimat ebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005264 Also, there are ex-Buell and current HD dealerships that meet your criteria of this Buell bashing category. Hmmm. Maybe you should direct some of your 'splainin' towards them. They seem to be brimming with this "ignorance" too...which is why they have dropped the brand or never carried it in the first place. It has been my and other's experience that they are much more anti-Buell than most anyone on this site [since 'Pissin' on the Parade' left]. Actually, I have nothing to get over, as I still own two Buells that were covered in the midst of the recall issues. I have not had any bad issues with my bikes as I work on them myself and understand how the systems work. I routinely have the shocks rebuilt as a maintenance matter before they fail, unlike most Buell owners who see them like their car shocks (a perception fostered by the company). I did it with the 16.5" and the 14.5" replacement as well, and have yet to be let down. I have NO complaints personally, but that wasn't the point of my comments. But you gotta admit that looking at the Showa 16.5 and then the 14.5 shocks, there are major difference in the engineering and structural integrity. The reasons why the first Showa was not designed like the beefy final version is the issue in question...not whether Showa was a reputable manufacturer with quality control, or that it was cost effective to do it that way. It was my contention that it was not [and found it laughable that it was considered by some in a positive light]. There are vestiges of these same recall/reliability issues on sites that currently have threads on the 1125R, like here: http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/general-ducati-ch at/38966-1125r-baby.html There are (surprisingly) several folks on this Ducati site that are very interested in the new Buell though, which is encouraging. Hopefully, this new generation will help eradicate those recall issues forever. (Message edited by jimidan on July 19, 2007) (Message edited by jimidan on July 19, 2007) | ||
| Jimidan |
Didn't figure yourself as such an instigator, did you? Are you kiddin' ? That would be 'initiator'. I just like talking about Buells...what can I say. This has been an entertaining thread though...50 some hits so far. jimi (Message edited by jimidan on July 19, 2007) | ||
| Court |
From the UKBEG site where I explained this . . . Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ >>>>Wouldn't be so sure about Honda's build quality The same Honda that has folks taking Gold Wings to lawn mower shops to have the frames welded. . . .. ah, yes. In a nutshell the stories about Buell and Recalls are overblown and far out of proportion. Let's look at last year . . BUELL 2,044 Units Subject to Recall BMW 6,631 HONDA 1,190,000 I am in the portion of my writing where I am dealing with recalls and I have discovered some interesting things. I'll leave ya'll here to spout and entertain yourself but I suggest you start doing some careful study (the data is easy to find) and I'd further suggest that the more you study the more you'll be impressed that Buell is a company that runs it's business like you'd want someone to run their life. It's all good news. . . | ||
| Kuuud |
These are people who hate H-D and Buell, and probably hate American products in general. I've had that thought also. How F****d up is that when Americans bash domestic products in favor of a foreign one. I put forth that 'they' are seriously flawed in their thinking. | ||
| Spiderman |
Just so we can make sure we keep the ax-a-grindin'  | ||
| Jimidan |
I've had that thought also. How F****d up is that when Americans bash domestic products in favor of a foreign one. I put forth that 'they' are seriously flawed in their thinking. How f****d up is it that there are many who work in or own HD stores who are some of the most ardent Buell bashers? Now that is f****d up. jimi | ||
| Jimidan |
In a nutshell the stories about Buell and Recalls are overblown and far out of proportion. Let's look at last year . . BUELL 2,044 Units Subject to Recall BMW 6,631 HONDA 1,190,000 I am in the portion of my writing where I am dealing with recalls and I have discovered some interesting things. I'll leave ya'll here to spout and entertain yourself but I suggest you start doing some careful study (the data is easy to find) and I'd further suggest that the more you study the more you'll be impressed that Buell is a company that runs it's business like you'd want someone to run their life. It's all good news. . . Dang, Buell had 2044 units subject to recalls last year? I am surprised...what kind of percentage was that of total production? Weren't there about 10,000 Buells produced last year, and fewer than that sold? I would have thought that the new generation XBs would have better numbers than that. I am shocked, really. And this was all good news? I guess it might be to a guy who thinks Buell's tube frame era recalls were the company's shining moment! I know that Honda produced approximately 10,000,000 motorcycles last year, so what percentage of their total production was subject to recall? Roughly 12%? What about BMW's percentage? Thanks for the update...we really do need to look at the data more carefully. Please clarify...there has to be some mistake. jimi | ||
| Blake |
And Jimi, my instigator comment was for Bobup, not you. Reminds me of an old song, with some applicable revisions to the lyrics... "You probably thought that post was about you, didn't you, didn't you?" Got vanity? | ||
| Anonymous |
Jimidan-san, There will always be a greater likelihood of Buell doing recalls than the conmpetition because we hold ourselves to a higher standard than the competition. We issue recalls on stuff no other manufacturer would ever acknowledge. Did you read above regarding KTM? Thousands of fuel tank leaks before any action. And there are hundreds more such examples. It's too bad people aren't willing to recognize that, I can't help them. As far as Buell dealers bashing, well that's a separate breed that hates anything but Harley-Davidson (who by the way have had many, many more recalls, for the same reason of holding to an extraordinary standard). Stupidity abounds. You may enjoy that this thread is continuing because people fight back against troll-dom, but it's pretty sad that you find it entertaining. Of course, it's more fun than doing real research on the extent and application of the recalls and the fact that there has never been one forced by NHTSA, all have been voluntarily noted and very, very quickly. It's stinking hard for a tiny company to step up to a level far beyond the competition, who are giants financially compared to us. The fact that people jeer at us for manning up definitely pisses us off, if you want to know the truth. Go ahead and live in the illusion that imports are better, but an illusion is what it is. | ||
| Bobup |
Blake I caught the reply "directed" at me...I love stirring the pot...ask my wife LOL Anonymous you still have not addressed my question that started this thread...even though this thread was hijacked, my question still stands C'Ya tomorrow at Carbones bob XB9SX (Message edited by bobup on July 19, 2007) |
