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Tunes
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 05:23 am: | 
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If Buell went from belt to chain on the new bikes, I would be looking for a new brand motorcycle. I want a street bike, not a repli-racer and I want it to cater to my needs as a commuter/sport-tourer. Buell is in the business of producing motorcycles for profit. You need a successful business first before you can go racing and support such an expensive venture. Specialized parts for racing will come. Give 'em time.
Even though the new 1125R is a wonder to behold, I'm sure Buell was still nervous as to the public's reaction to their new creation... and unfortunately, I've heard plenty of complaining about a machine that hasn't hit the showroom floor yet. In time, we will all see and learn about the new bike. Let's just bask in the glow of a beautiful, innovative, and exciting new bike we can't wait to test ride. I'll decide then, but I'm sure I'll be grinnin' inside my helmet.  |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 07:13 am: |
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Racing (presumably a future application for the 1125R) and Street Riding (the PRECISE intended purpose of this new model are different and demand different equipment.
Most good race bikes begin life as good street bikes with potential to be converted to meet the unique demands of racing.
Careful how much of the "ride it from the showroom to the track" chatter you buy. Both Peter and Matt have a great deal of experience. I'd suggest part of the experience is knowing what to change and what not to change.
The idea that Erik Buell, and some of the similarly race afflicted folks on the Project Barracuda, have spent 3 years developing this bike without continually challenging themselves "what do we need to do to make it an easy leap to WSB?", would of course be not only inaccurate, but ludicrous.
I expect a high level of factory facilitation to see this bike racing at the highest level on the same days folks like you and I are riding out street versions merrily along.
Some may recall my statement about Buell being one of the top 5 names in racing within 5 years.
I stand by it.
Court |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 07:49 am: |
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I would go out of my mind to see a Buell racing in WSB. GO BUELL!!!! |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 08:37 am: |
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Why does a race bike have to have a chain?
Does changing the pullies in a bike with soo much power and torque need to be fine tuned for each track? I understand for top speed saltflats.. I know little to nothing about bike racing.
How does the shaft drive BMW alter ratios? |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 08:56 am: |
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Don't be distracted by the "power" argument . . . it's long since moot.
A race bike will need a chain for rapid gearing changes. It's an acceptable compromise. |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:07 am: |
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Does anyone know, is the belt on the 1125R of a higher grade and/or quality than the belt used on the latest XB's? I don't remember seeing the buzz words associated with it mentioned before.
Maybe it would work to have a few drive and driven pulleys of various sizes for the belts, a few belts of various sizes, and use those variables, along with the belt idler for tensioning, to adjust the gearing. I like belts and they seem to be getting better. If the belts will stand up for one full race, frequent replacement would be a small item in the costs of racing.
If the belt can do the job, I'd prefer it to a chain. But I'm not a racer.
Jack |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:31 am: |
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Trojan,
looking at these pics Blake posted it appears that there may be a removable section to sneak the belt out of the swingarm. It'd be real nice you one didn't have to remove the swingarm to swap out the belt, would be real nice if it could be a roadside or parking lot swap. Like showing up at a dealership 5 minutes before they close for a 3-day weekend needing a belt change while on a road trip.
Anyway, there appears to be some screw head and a fastener recess on the swingarm peeking out from behind the passenger peg support here:
And there appears to be a small removable section of the swingarm at the top of the belt channel right at the upper edge of this pic:
Granted, I haven't broke a belt yet on either of my Buells, but it is a factor in deciding to sell the M2. Sure wish the M2 had that X1 removable frame section, even if I haven't needed it yet.
Blake added one more pic. 
(Message edited by blake on July 19, 2007) |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
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Ya know, all this belt talk has reminded me of something...
Has the factory considered racing with belts? To say that ratio changes with a belt drive are impossible is an ignorant statement. The problem with ratio changes on non-adjustable swingarm bikes (the Blast, the XBs, now the 1125) is just that - a non adjustable swingarm.
So, there are 2 possibilities:
1) The factory sells final drive gearing sets which need special combinations of belts, front & rear pulleys, and tensioners (or tensioner positions)
2) The factory just sells pulleys and adjustable swingarms - though I'm not sure what would happen with the tensioner and the constant-ish belt tension at that point.
Anyone care to chime in?
-Saro |
Jscott
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:07 am: |
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"Ya know, all this belt talk has reminded me of something..."
Exactly...
Would you even need an adjustable swingarm, if the tentioners were flexible enough to adjust the belt to the varying pulley sizes?
PS Did my above post get 5 stars because I admitted to being an idiot or the fact that it was a decent question? |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:38 am: |
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Has the factory considered racing with belts? To say that ratio changes with a belt drive are impossible is an ignorant statement. The problem with ratio changes on non-adjustable swingarm bikes (the Blast, the XBs, now the 1125) is just that - a non adjustable swingarm.
There are other factors in racing that would dictate a chain over a belt.
1. Chains lose less power than even the latest generation of belts. In racing you don't have to make it last thousands of miles so a lightweight 520 chain would be a better option.
2. With the fixed belt tensioner it would be extremely difficult to come up with varying ratios whilst still keeping the belt tension the same. You would have to have various front & rear pulleys used in combination just to keep the belt tension constant. With a chain it is much much easier. The lack of swingarm adjusters is not a problem, we have been racing with a chain since 2003 using the stock XB swingarm and have 10 rear sprockets and 3 fronts to choose from.
3. Lastly and most importantly: Chains are easy to work with and readily available from any vendor at any circuit throughout the world. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:46 am: |
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Thank you Trojan for the clarifications! |
Jscott
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:47 am: |
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Thank you Trojan for the clarification! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 02:25 pm: |
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"1. Chains lose less power than even the latest generation of belts."
You sure? Are we talking a new chain (the most efficient) vs. a belt that's broken in (the most efficient)? I was always under the impression that a belt was more efficient. |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 06:19 pm: |
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The only reason I changed my M2 to a chain is how hard it is to pull the swingarm to change one, and a stone. It somehow got caught in between the belt and sprocket and broke the belt. A hole was quite discernable on the two ends that parted along with fragments of stone and I have never been off road but there are always parking areas with stones. All stock guards were in place also. I actually would prefer a belt for many reasons but this would leave you stranded. Luckily mine happened one block from the house. Maybe the new ones will eat a stone and maybe not. And I know it was a 1 in 10000 rare occurrence. |
Jon
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 08:57 pm: |
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Man I like the looks of that bike. Everything looks so clean and well designed. It's like art. Really well done...in a word, "neato". |
Firebolt020283
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:09 pm: |
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i have a question for some one particularly the anonys
will the xb wheels fit the 1125?
the reason i ask is because of the brake and rear pully being reversed and i would really like to have those red wheels to go with some other red items on this bike.
I am also hoping that they will have multi colored wind screens like they have finnaly done with the firebolt.
I am thinking a red wind screen, red traslucid air box cover, and red wheels will look very neat on this bike. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:36 pm: |
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In the videos you can see a number of different colors that they used for wheels... One set was the same color as the current XB's orange wheels. I think this means that the answer is yes, but they could just be ramping up production of other colors of wheels for the 1125? |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 09:39 pm: |
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I don't think anyone has yet addressed the "why do racers need the different final drive ratios?" question yet.
The reason for changing ratios is two fold, it can be helpful to adjust the bike (on longer tracks) to have more top end speed
or (on tighter tracks) make them drive off the corners harder.
Beyond that it can also be useful to adjust gearing to change when and where a rider hits certain shift points on
the track. By doing so it can help the rider to get a sort of rhythm going and connect the corners more smoothly and
therefore faster. A tooth up or down on the rear sprocket sounds like a small thing to most street riders, but to
a pro rider it can help to shave those last tenths of a second that separate the heroes from the zeros. |
Xb12rdude
| | Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:30 pm: |
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Trojon, I know you are very smart on cycle stuff.........but I always thought that belts were much more efficient friction wise than chains, not to mention a ton less rotating mass, which is the whole reason to go to a 520 conversion. Not positive if I'm correct, but thought I remembered that from engineering classes. I still like your spring loaded belt tensioner the best, have you guys did extensive testing on that. Thought it would help with broken belts, did it??? Thanks |
Asym50
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:39 am: |
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"Some may recall my statement about Buell being one of the top 5 names in racing within 5 years."
I'm with you Court. I find it hard to believe that so many underestimate Buell. After all, racing was what he brought him into the business. His brilliance is that he will fulfill his racing aspirations with the 1125 platform. How could he not want to go racing after what the sanctioning bodies did back in his early racing career? I see Erik as being patient and biding his time, developing the business, and bringing motorcycles to the public that really are usable and enjoyable. Looks to me he's in the optimal position to hit the race tracks with the 1125. |
Firebolt020283
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:49 am: |
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ok if i was in the standpoint of buell and having had happen what happened to him with the 750 thing i would be kinda scared about the new rule change for the twins. what would happen if say buell and duc were really un beatble with 1100 or 1200cc twins? I would see the racing orginaztions making them reduce the engine size back down to 1000's. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:29 am: |
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Trojon, I know you are very smart on cycle stuff.........but I always thought that belts were much more efficient friction wise than chains, not to mention a ton less rotating mass, which is the whole reason to go to a 520 conversion. Not positive if I'm correct, but thought I remembered that from engineering classes. I still like your spring loaded belt tensioner the best, have you guys did extensive testing on that. Thought it would help with broken belts, did it??? Thanks
In racing terms we are talking about fractions of a horsepower and fractions of a second on lap times. In racing it even makes a difference using a non O ring chain compared to an O ring one, particularly in classes such as 125 and horsepower limited classes.
A new well adjusted race chain will be more efficient than a belt in that respect.
Also remeber that the belt is designed for thousands of miles, whereas the chain only has to last one race and can be changed for the next one if necessary.
As for the spring loaded tensioners, they have been a resounding success all round. We have sold hundreds of them, and have not had a single customer come back and tell us that a belt has broken since fitting one. They really do work. |
Tank_bueller
| | Posted on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:52 pm: |
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will the xb wheels fit the 1125?
They look the same to me. Looks like they just flipped the back one around 180 degrees, and installed the tire for proper rotation. The swingarms on the XB and the 1125 both have the spacers built-in for proper left/right alignment.
So it should be as simple as installing the correct pulley/rotor, and installing the tire for the correct rotation.(sounds simple, but those pulley bolts are a bitch...ask me how I know)
Correct me if I'm wrong?? |
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