| Author | Message | ||
     Chrisrogers3 |
So I was caught speeding yesterday. I was on Hwy 41 N just north of the Hwy 47 exit (Appleton, WI) and I see the lights in my mirror. Knowing quite well that I didn’t pass this guy on the road he must have been following me. As I pull over I am thinking "well what line am I going to use". The cop comes up to the bike and says the usual “where you going in such a hurry?" For once I actually wasn’t in a hurry at all but just trying to move through traffic and keep out of the blind spots (the usual routine). He then says he clocked me at 81.6 mph and I thought to myself I don’t remember ever going above 75 mph. Well he comes up with this little formula and said he timed me over a distance of 528 ft and I cleared that distance in 4.41 seconds. So the questions start to pop into my head…If this guy was behind me 1. He had to speed up to me to get that time thus he was breaking the law to pull me over, as far as I know that’s something a cop cannot do. 2. He broke it down to the thousandth of a second, which means the cops have some sort of special means of grabbing the time or he just he just threw in that .01 for the hell of it. So I take my ticket without arguing because we all know that gets us no where. Well instead of marking me at the 81.6 mph he “reduced it to 75 in a 65”. So at this point I am partially relieved that he didn’t give me a ticket for 17 over because of the mandatory court and 6 pts on the license. Anyway I get back to the office and I start to do some dimensional analysis and find that if the cop is .5 seconds off on his calculation it is the difference of 10 mph with this formula he used. Now this really concerns me because I have never heard of this method before (other than used by state troopers in a air unit (where at least they have a clear vantage point). So making a long story short…Has anyone heard of this? Will it hold up in court? Of course if this is a viable way to issue tickets, I guess all of us need to watch out a little more now. | ||
| Herobluebuell |
I'm pretty sure with a hand timer there is a 10 mph lead way for error in your favor. I would try and fight it and at least get it lowered | ||
| Sneth |
he just bullshitted you. | ||
| Mikej |
If you were a female in Milwaukee county I'd suggest taking it to court and in the pre-trial ask for a no-point pay the fine and go to a class option. Assuming you're not female, you're not in Milwaukee county, the ticket is for 10-over, so I'd suggest just paying the ticket and take the points or go to the pre-trial hearing and plead probably guilty and ask for a no-points option. As far as getting the officer tagged for speeding, not a good path to follow. As far as testing his math, it will take a lawyer and a jury and a 528' long tape measure. Just an opinion, YMMV | ||
| Hammer71 |
1. He had to speed up to me to get that time thus he was breaking the law to pull me over, as far as I know that’s something a cop cannot do. (yes he can, if not there would be roadblocks all over the roadway) Not sure of procedure there but here in NY you have an opportunity to speak with the Ofc. before court. Usually ends with a simple non moving violation. If you cant do that fight it but be prepared to pay up just in case. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
He was using a spotter. They use an plane to time you between two points in the road. When you pass a point, a stop watch is used to time you. They give and take for error, but its pretty accurate. When I was a cop, it was called VASCAR. The kicker is, they won't tell you they're using a plane, he'll tell you he did all the work. This way people aren't looking for the spotter before they get to their area of patrol. Yes, local LE will use the State Patrol plane to run their own traps. Its impossible to judge you between 2 points accurately being horizontal with you and behind you. He had to have a spotter or be above you on an overpass to do this. | ||
| Mikej |
Years ago out in California I worked with a guy who drove and rode regularly between up the hill from Sacramento to the S.F. Bay area, and he got a regular supply of speeding tickets which he always took to court. Most of them were aircraft timed and relayed to the ground patrol. The pilots rarely if ever attended the court dates. No officer, no ticket, have a nice day. The ground patrol officer was not the one who did the timing so there was nobody to testify. | ||
| Court |
Mikej: You got it. The spotters word is "hearsay" and inadmissible. Court | ||
| Rhun |
Before radar there were p remeasured markings on the road. A cop would time you through them look at a chart and determine your speed. This was done by air (the pilot would inform the cop of the car and verify it thus eliminating the 'hearsay') or he would watch your shadow cross the markings and time you thusly, or would use photo cells spaced a distant apart. Some of these methods are still used to get the 'detector' guys. Best thing since it is only 10 mph over is call the district attorney and try and get a diversion. It cost twice as much as the ticket but doesn't go on your record if you stay clean for a year. Unless the cop doesn't show at a trail, it is your word against his. Not a fair fight. Cops have the right to break the law to apprehend a law breaker. | ||
| Ducxl |
1. He had to speed up to me to get that time thus he was breaking the law to pull me over, as far as I know that’s something a cop cannot do Isn't that called Pursuit of a law breaker?? Man...what a waste of space.Just man-up,you were speeding and got caught.Now 'ya want to squirm out of it. (Message edited by ducxl on July 12, 2007) | ||
| Dongalonga |
Actually Court it varie depending on the state. In some cities in MA they send a detective to testify to the patrolmans affidavit. I am an LEO in VT and to clarify the spped limit does not apply to LEO vehicles on duty. I would still go to court however as most judges will lower the fines or points. | ||
| Xb12rdude |
NO "that's not pursuit of a law breaker". Cops speeding thur red lights and high speeds to chase a traffic violater is "azzz-in-nine". Now they've become just as dangerous and a threat as the person they are chasing. You just watch the show cops or read the paper. More people are killed or injured from the high speed chase than what the criminal ever did in the first place. It's 2007, use radios or such. If the "speeder" gets away, so what, get him another day. It's not worth killing someone. UNLESS it's a know criminal for something serious (you know murder, rape, ect..) high speed chase are a bunch of crap, especially after a motorcycle. Most of them end up crashing and dieing, for what.......speeding. Is it really worth it. NOOOOO. Ya-Ya you shouldn't be speeding or running, but it's still not worth killing some 19 year that really don't know better. He has friends, mom and dad just like us................SOrry, it's a big pet peave of mine, don't arque because I will NEVER ever change my mind. See it to many times. ANYHOW. Definitey get a lawyer and fight the ticket, the $150 for suck azz lawyer is better than the points. | ||
| Dongalonga |
Wow man calm yourself. Noone said anything about a pursuit or anything along those lines. The amount of traffic or control devices were never even discussed in the origonal post so where are you getting your info from. The point I was trying to ake was the sections of motor vehicle law pertaining to speed do not apply. I dont want this guy to go to court and try to use that ad have the judge get all pissy with him as I have seen in my own court cases. I will agree with you however on high speed pursuits being dangerous. This is why shift supervisors have the duty to call one off if the circumstances are too dangerous. You are not an LEO and probably dont understand the policies and procedures concerning pursuits so please ask before posting. I will also agree that some organizations have very loose policies and procedures when it comes to pursuits and that is bad for both the public at large and all LEOs. I for one go pretty easy on motorcycles because it is alot easier to speed on one than a car. I usually give them more of an ass chewing than cars becuase they are going to hurt themselves more than anyone else when they crash. People in cars are more likely to get a ticket from me because they are more of a danger to everyone around them. (Message edited by dongalonga on July 12, 2007) | ||
| Paint_shaker |
The timing method is generally known as VASCAR and can be utilized via air, overpass or a hill. IN FLORIDA, law enforcement officers are allowed to disregard traffic regulations (when safe to do so) to effect a traffic stop on a violator. Also an officer can issue a traffic citation based upon another officer's observation. However, both officer's must show up in court as one officer can not testify as to what the other observed. You were given a break... Man up and pay the citation or contest it in court. Either way, it's your right. | ||
| Ducxl |
More people are killed or injured from the high speed chase than what the criminal ever did in the first place. True story....My fathyer-in-law was an East side Providence Dentist.He'd just left the office.At a stop signed intersection he stopped then proceeded.A Providence police officer "silent running" to a call (later turned out to be a crank) TEE-BONED him.Paralized and brain damaged lived for the next ten years in a nursing home..then died.We were awarded 2 million dollars.The legislature passed a bill so we could sue the state for more than the cap.The officer tried to sue civily but the judge dismissed with prejudice. | ||
| Xb12rdude |
"Dongalonga" your obviously in law enforcement, and as I noted at the bottom...sorry for getting off que a bit, but it's a sore subject with me. My wife and kid (while in a stroller) were just about plowed during a high speed chase crossing an intersection. Not cool thinking I was going to loose most everything I love (other than my XB). I found out later it was a chase over a speeder, I was so furious. Wasn't cop bashing, some of my best friends are police and one actually out wheelies me on my XB. Anywho, points suck because of insurance so do whatever you can to get rid of them. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Duc, Sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Again, in Flori-duh L.E. Officers are allowed to disregard traffic law (running lights and siren) WHEN SAFE TO DO so. When not running lights and siren, this exception does not exist and the indivdual officer would be liable. | ||
| Luvthemtorts |
Man, You guys ought to check out the new laws for us in Virginia. The penalties have become so harsh I am literally scared to go above 5mph over the speed limit. It has taken all the fun out of street riding since the occasional 75mph sweeper now just isn't worth the fine. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-29-Va- new-driving-laws_N.htm | ||
| Dongalonga |
No prob Xb12rdude no offense taken. I actually agree with you completely in the incident you described. I will never go to a call that requires me to get there quickly without lights AND sirens. I also slow to almost a stop at all intersections. The last thing I ever want to do is run someone over. The same goes for pursuits. There is alot that needs to be taken in and that is why it is good for a third party to be the deciding factor on whether or not to continue. Point do suck I know I had plenty of tickets before I was an LEO. Ducxl I am honestly sorry for what happened to you . There is no excuse for that happening. I kow I wouldnt have a job if I did that...nor would I deserve to. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"You got it. The spotters word is "hearsay" and inadmissible." Not here in Wisconsin, the planes carry a Trooper who runs the timer and a pilot. The spotter in this case is a certified (and trained in VASCAR) LEO. | ||
| Court |
>>>Not here in Wisconsin, the planes carry a Trooper who runs the timer and a pilot. The spotter in this case is a certified (and trained in VASCAR) LEO That's cool as long as the trooper in the plane writes the ticket. He can NOT call the guy on the ground. The Rules of Civil Procedure. . . well, are. Don't get me wrong. . . it's like a red light violation. You can win, but the fights not worth it. In addition, judges respond better to mea culpa than smart ass defenses. . .regardless of legal foundation. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Court....I hold 2 bs degrees, one in CJ, I was a certified LEO for 3 years, all three undercover. It is not hear-say for one cop to radio down to another what your speed is. If your reasoning hold true, then every cop running radar on a bridge while all his buddies are lined up on the on-ramp waiting for you to pass through, would never hold up in court (no pun), which is far from the case. Just drive up 41 north just south of Fondy, they run that radar trap there every day. One cop on the bridge with the radar or laser, 3 on the ramp waiting to pull you over. No judge on this planet is going to look at a radar, VASCAR trap as heresay. If Joe Shmo was in a plane clocking people and radioing a cop with speeds, that's an entirely different story. | ||
| Mikej |
How many of those tickets were contested in court by a defendant with an attorney where the officer with the radar gun was called in to testify? Just because people bend over doesn't mean that's the law. Sometimes fighting it isn't worth the hassle, plus if the defendant is truely guilty then contesting it becomes a financial calculated risk banking/betting that the officer holding the radar gun won't show up or won't have sufficient notes to clearly state who was doing what at the time in question. Kind of curious how one goes straight into undercover work without any uniformed duty, no need to get into it though. Not looking for an argument, just flipping the coin over and turning on the lights. And if I get a speeding ticket on the way home tonight I'll be peeved and bummed. (I'll be riding south on 101st, turning west on SilverSpring, then heading up to HolyHill via Appleton at approximately 5:45pm, or not. )  (urban escape route 3c tonight with only 14 known potential radar locations)  | ||
| Djkaplan |
All I got to say about cops is this... I'm damn glad a lot of them ride Buells and come to the March Badnesses. Whew...  | ||
| Mikej |
Yep, it's always fun and interesting when an active duty officer is along on a ride. | ||
| Bads1 |
Here in Racine I talk nice to the cop and respectful and not like I'm trying to do it on purpose..... believe me they have seen it all. They'd rather hear honesty. If the cop is rude when I am not they better show me the truth of my speeding. Years back I had it shown to me as proof. Got the fine and fought it in Court for a reduction. The other time they could not produce what I requested I got the ticket went to Court and it was thrown out. | ||
| Sloppy |
I've gotten out of a number "legal" predicaments by doing one thing: RESEARCH! The court system is NOT about what is fair or right, but instead, what is an acceptable level of recourse for society. IMO, the American legal system is one of the most archane and weakest part of this Country (for us Yanks). It is based on the old English Tort law which no new country has elected to use! Read the particular code that's on the ticket and see if the officer complied with ALL of the particulars of the code. In some states you can do a Trial By Written Declaration which allows you to contest by writing in on special forms. If the officer doesn't send his forms in on time then the case is dismissed. Always ask for a postponment of the date. Bottom line is you've got time now to do research -- did you know that you can get a Law Librarian on the internet know? The Court system will do everything legally possible to win it's case. Get educated and understand what your rights actually are so you can LEGALLY protect yourself. | ||
| Curtyd |
"1. He had to speed up to me to get that time thus he was breaking the law to pull me over, as far as I know that’s something a cop cannot do. " and they NEVER lie either...what Fairy Tale are you living in? So many cop myths, like they have to answer truthfully if someone ever asked if they are COPS? How do you think they could run undercover operations if all you had to do is ask them who they are? BOLO reports from LEO to LEO are an exception to the "No hearsay" rule and those statements are admissible. In fact there are so many exceptions that the question becomes what is NOT an exception to the "No Hearsay" rule? | ||
| Dongalonga |
I will tell you two things. One if you are honest from the get go and admit wrong doing 9 times out of 10 you are getting off with a verbal warning. Two in the State of VT LEO is not required to show speed or have any hard proof of the radar readout. So if you are in VT don't bother asking, especially if you know you were speeding. I have realized what I did before I was a LEO really works on me as a LEO....be respectful and tell the truth. | ||
| Xb12rdude |
"Dongalonga" wish your were a cop around here, I've lost faith in "nice" cops in this area. I've been pulled over (speeding) four times in the last 11 years, was nice and honest as hell. Yes sir, I'm sorry, blahhhh and always ended up getting a ticket. Just got one for 10 over in my 8 year old S10 blazer while taking my soccer kids to the game. I even had my AYSO coach uniform on and the kids in soccer uniforms. Still got a ticket. I fought and won, but isn't there such thing as a warning anymore???? |
