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M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:14 pm: | 
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"M1,you have rode an old UJM and your Buell,just how does that make you an expert on how other bikes brake?"
Uhhh... well it doesn't. Never said it did. I have chased other bikes down on the brakes though so they work as far as I'm concerned. That's all I was saying. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 03:59 am: |
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Matt,
Thanks for filling us in on the rest of the story concerning the brake issue. Doesn't sound to me like there are any grounds to assume anything but water laden brake fluid was the culprit. The behavior he experienced sure points to that as the cause. I cannot imagine why he continued on after noticing the increasing degradation. He was likely having too much fun and didn't want to quit.
One thing that has not been mentioned I don't think is that worn brake pads can transmit more heat to the caliper. The pistons are closer to the pad/disk interface and so can pick up more heat as a result.
So in changing from worn pads to new ones it is not surprising that brake fade would be reduced or eliminated. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 04:26 am: |
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Blake,
I would agree if the situation described was a 'one-off', but unfortunately it isn't. It happened to us racing time and time again until we changed brakes completely. We changed fluid, pads, master cylinder, everything but still didn't find a satisfactory solution. In 2003 Henry Duga kindly sent us a disc and some pads direct from the race shop that were slightly different, but we still couldn't achieve the braking performance that we were expecting. Believe me, we tried absolutely everything that was available.
Maybe we just expected a lot more from our brakes. After all, this is where we were making up for lost power on the track against Ducati 916/Aprilia RSV's/Suzuki TL1000's etc that we were up against. All I can say is that the problems went away when we changed brakes completely.
You will also find that we were not the only race team to do this either. Rich Cronrath's bikes ran GSXR front brakes in Pro Thunder/FX, Buell Bonn run Sicom dual carbon discs/calipers on their successful XB racer and I have seen lots of photos of other US bikes running twin discs too.
At US$180 per set of pads, the ZTL2 option starts to look a little more expensive than first glance would suggest.
Josh,
If you think that the XB front suspension tracks bumps well, try out a few of the newer Jap sportsbikes or a KTM. Their front ends feel amazingly planted and inspire huge confidence compared to the XB.
5 years ago the XB chassis design was innovative and cutting edge, but the opposition has not stood still and has not only caught up but overtaken.
Bikes like the CBR600RR/R6/ZX6-R/KTM990 etc are faster and handle far better than the XB does. Where Buell once had a niche market all to itself, there are now hoards of naked streetbikes offering better performance and value for money. Aprilia will soon be joning the mob with their new Shiver 750/1200 models, and they have a new 1200 Supermoto being built that will offer 130bhp and have handling to match, plus of course it will look stunning!
Buell need a new model to bring them back into line, and I will be overjoyed to see the launch of the new 120bhp Buell sportsbike next month (He says, holding his breath).
(Message edited by trojan on June 15, 2007) |
12r
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 04:34 am: |
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I will be overjoyed to see the launch of the new 120bhp Buell sportsbike next month (He says, holding his breath)
You and me both  |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 06:17 am: |
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Matt,
What does the following mean?
"...we still couldn't achieve the braking performance that we were expecting." |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 06:35 am: |
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So you are saying that your race bike also suffered total brake failure and on multiple occasions? You definitely need the ZTL-2 then or your Suzuki brakes.
Sure the competition moves on. They haven't taken any giant leaps and carved multiple pounds from their front wheel/brake system.
The one major point that you don't seem to accept is that you can take a ZTL wheel/brake system and tack it onto the latest greatest front end, and make it better. A front end with multiple pounds less of unsprung mass is always an improvement. It is not rational or logical to argue against that. Shake your bare fist up and down as fast as you can. Now grab a five pound weight and try that again.
Point illustrated?
Adrenalin Moto and others may not have been able to achieve optimum track tuning of the Buell front end as you were able to with the much more familiar and well-known, vastly more popular GSXR forks.
Understandable, yes?
The Buell fork tuning/setup has befuddled more than one race track suspension tuner. It is a different animal and one that is not very well known at this point.
Yes, I've seen the dual disk Buell racers. I've seen more with the ZTL.
I cannot hold my breath that long, but I'm sure anxious. I have a feeling there is going to be a lot of excitement surrounding the upcoming release of the 2008 models. I also know for a fact that some folks are impossible to please, not you, but you know the type I'm meaning. The first thing out past their miserable lips will be the same old, but I can get more HP for less money... blah, blah, blah. LOL! |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 06:58 am: |
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Where Buell once had a niche market all to itself, there are now hoards of naked streetbikes offering better performance and value for money.
Be careful Matt. Comments like that will have you firmly placed in my camp!
I also know for a fact that some folks are impossible to please, not you, but you know the type I'm meaning. The first thing out past their miserable lips will be the same old, but I can get more HP for less money... blah, blah, blah. LOL!
Like I keep telling you. Credit where credit's due.
What would you rather have, a ZTL brake or 40 more BHP?
Rocket |
Skully
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 08:39 am: |
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What would you rather have, a ZTL brake or 40 more BHP?
BOTH! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:19 am: |
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Matt,
What does the following mean?
"...we still couldn't achieve the braking performance that we were expecting."
Basically, it means that We expected to be able to do 4 10 lap sprint races per day without the bike trying to launch itself into the undergrowth on the 3rd or 4th lap because the brakes overheated. This happened more than regulalry for the first hlf of the 2003 season and was only eventually solved by changing to twin radial mount calipers/discs. from that point on we never had a single braking problem.
Last year we just went straight ahead and fitted Yamaha R1 brakes/forks to save going through all the hassle again.
The Buell fork tuning/setup has befuddled more than one race track suspension tuner. It is a different animal and one that is not very well known at this point
To be honest Blake, the stock XB forks are easy to tune but are not up to race use. They don't have enough high speed damping. Fitting Traxxion Dynamics cartridges makes a huge difference but at a price.
The one major point that you don't seem to accept is that you can take a ZTL wheel/brake system and tack it onto the latest greatest front end, and make it better. A front end with multiple pounds less of unsprung mass is always an improvement. It is not rational or logical to argue against that.
I am not arguing about it theory, but in practice I cannot accept that the reduction in unsprung weight is worth the reduction in braking power and performance. Unsprung weight is only a small part of the equation, and should not be looked at in isolation. A reduction in overall weight of the bike by fitting a lighter engine would reap huge benefits, and ironically would also give the ZTL brake an easier time too 
By the way, here is the first picture of the new Aprilia 1200 Supermoto. All I can say is that the new Buell had better be good.
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Pushrodpete
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:58 am: |
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Please, Aprilia, don't stick a goddamn "beak" on the front of it.... |
07xb12scg
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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Sure the competition moves on. They haven't taken any giant leaps and carved multiple pounds from their front wheel/brake system.
It's pretty hard to take giant leaps when the Jap bikes are updated almost every year. They get small improvements continually and they're already pushing the edges of affordable technology. The only way a Jap bike could take a giant leap forward is if it sat stagnant for 5 years like the Buells. And they don't need to lose a bunch of weight on their front wheel, even though they do try to take weight off, when they're already the class leaders. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 04:16 am: |
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Matt,
It's not just theory. It's real world benefit. I have no idea why you had such difficulty with the stock brake, but that certainly isn't typical for Buell racers over hear. The ones who have run into issues have been able to solve them via different pads and such.
Maybe your input will lead to a bit more robust caliper to allow the stock system to withstand all and anything anyone can throw at it.
Then you'll have a great brake and the reduced weight and that is a win-win scenario.
I doubt the first ever version of any new brake was perfect on the track as is.
I doubt that Buell will be competing in the Super Motard market with any new models for 2008. And frankly, that Aprilia is not appealing to me at all. The front forks look gangly, and the frame looks cobbled akin to the SV. I'm sure it rides and runs great, but for me, I like the bike to be as much art as machine. More choice is always better, but the Ducati Hypermotard has that Aprilia beat by a mile in my book. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:32 pm: |
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The Aprilia is still at the clay model stage at present, so by the time it hits the showrooms it should be as sexy as the SXV550 but with more poke
There will also be a more 'road style' 750 and 1200 version of the Shiver using the same motor.
The frame is the same as the 750 Shiver and interesting as it uses a mix of tubes and cast sections for the first time in a 'budget roadster', and is incredibly light. What should worry Buell is not the styling but the price. The 1200 will come onto the market at under GBP8000, which will put it right up against the XB, KTM, Ducati and other naked sports/supermotos but with far more power. The 750 will cost considerably less and also have around 100bhp at the rear wheel.
Buell are already in the same market segment as the Hypermotard/KTM Supermoto and new Aprilia with the XB12TT. Nobody will be seriously taking any of these off road as they are purely SM styled road bikes, and customers looking for a big naked roadster will undoubtedly consider bikes in this market sector, particularly here in the UK and Europe where the Supermoto has finally arrived big time. The 'Streetmoto' is the fastest growing market in Europe and I think Buell would be foolish to ignore it. After all, it is more about style and handling than outright power, so Buell should be able to come up with a mega moto of their own to compete with these Euro bikes surely? Plus of course if Buell are serious about getting intot he dirt bike market then a supermoto will be a 'must do' for them.
Personally I think the XB looks very dated now compared to the new Streetmoto's on offer, which is what you would expect of a 5 year old model when compared to a brand new bike, but hopefully Buell will address that very soon. |
07xb12scg
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 02:59 pm: |
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The Shiver looks way too much like a Suzuki SV/MV Agusta Brutale love child rip IMO. Do I like it? Yes, but I think Aprilia could have been a little more creative. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 05:12 pm: |
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You can definitely tell that some manufacturers are aiming for that "Transporters" (robots in disguise) look. I personally don't like it at all. The simpler and leaner and meaner, the better. A radiator detracts from that kind of theme a lot too, which is why marketing tries their best to diminish/hide the things in promotional photos.
The trendy kind of designs like the Shiver's rarely last long and are soon to be replaced with the next fashion du'jour to come along.
I agree that after five years, the XBS and XBR series are beginning to grow a bit long in the tooth, but I think they have a lot more artistry in their design than any Transporter-bike.
The Ducati Hypermotard is the current winner in the class for me, by far, it's no contest. But I'm not beholding to the spec sheet for max HP and such.
The more bikes the better though. |
Pushrodpete
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 09:32 pm: |
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I agree on the Shiver being a bit too "Transformers" (though the adjective that leapt to my mind was "too Batman" LOL...)
That's why I like the 1200 moto above -- much smoother integrated less-fussy lines.... |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 06:13 am: |
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"Anybody can go fast in a straight line. That doesn't take any skill at all."
"You can ride this bike for a very long time without getting tired."
"This is the type of motor you want for the street."
I could paraphrase EB all day but what I am trying to say is that this bike he has built is bloody excellent for its intended use. The street with crappy bumpy winding roads. Like any other machine that is put out of its intended environment you are going to find that some of the engineering limitations are found and need to changed/modified.
Horses for courses. |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 09:41 am: |
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Transformers 7-4-07
Optimus Prime awaits you.... |
Pushrodpete
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 09:47 am: |
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"Anybody can go fast in a straight line. That doesn't take any skill at all."
THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT FUN!!!!!!
Scary arm-wrenching acceleration is a valid source of amusement, and for a lot of us in flat twisty-deprived environs, our ONLY CHANCE at amusement.
Why ignore that market? |
Buellshyter
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 09:51 am: |
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Scary arm-wrenching acceleration is a valid source of amusement, and for a lot of us in flat twisty-deprived environs, our ONLY CHANCE at amusement.
Why ignore that market?
I believe Buell said they were going to develop a hyper-sport bike so they won't be ignoring you for long. |
Pushrodpete
| | Posted on Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 09:53 am: |
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Although now that I think about it, drinking boatloads of beer is high on the fun/skill ratio too.
And I don't have to wait a month.
With that thought, HAPPY FATHER'S DAY! (Not traditionally a drinking holiday, but why the heck not, I say.....) |
Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 04:29 am: |
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"Anybody can go fast in a straight line. That doesn't take any skill at all."
That statement makes a huge assumption that whoever buys the bike has the requisite skill to go fast in the curves, which is often not the case at all. This then leaves you with just a slow bike.
"You can ride this bike for a very long time without getting tired."
Not if you are over 6 foot tall you can't!! I'm 6'2" and I find the Firebolt extremely painful after around 30 minutes on the road. Great on track when you are moving around a lot more and riding for short periods, but an ergonomic nightmare otherwise.
"This is the type of motor you want for the street."
Says who? None of the other manufacturers agree, and the vast majority of motorcycle buyers tend to agree with them don't they.
Marketing speak, don't believe everything you read |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 06:25 pm: |
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Oh come on Matt...
Great torque, great fuel mileage, it's right there next to maintenance free, it's simple, parts are cheap, it sounds great, it keeps up in the canyons... What else is there?
Oh yeah... power and race wins...
Well, there are Turbo'd Busas and GSXR 1000's for those. I don't own either of those and I don't plan on it.
"Not if you are over 6 foot tall you can't!! "
I'm only 5'9" but I've got a friend who's about 6'5 and he rode his all the way to California (From Arizona) and rode all over the Southern California mountains for a day and a half and then rode back. He loved it...
At 5'9" I've been on it for eight hours straight and my ass was certainly numb, but no problems with my legs or arms...
Different strokes I suppose.
Ergonomic Nightmare???
"Says who? None of the other manufacturers agree, and the vast majority of motorcycle buyers tend to agree with them don't they. "
Yes Matt... That's true... but the vast majority of those riders still get passed in the canyons. They have the same attitude we do though really . They think "So what... I got him back in the straight."
Different strokes...
It doesn't matter what you have, more is always better. I'd love more power in an XB chassis. I don't need it though... |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:27 am: |
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Matt,
Most motorcycle riders don't ride repliracers either, right?
What exactly is the most common engine configuration that street motorcyclists are riding around on, care to wager a guess?
Let's see, BMW has an air-cooled twin, Ducati has three of them implemented in various models; Moto Guzzi has them; of course Harley-Davidson; then there's Yamaha and their Star series... Sure are lots of air-cooled twins out there. |
Disturbed
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 03:18 am: |
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Blake, I told you I'd keep you posted, guess what I had to do? ^_^ |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 03:35 am: |
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Cool. Thanks for confirming the details of BadWeB's emailing scheme. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 04:20 am: |
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What exactly is the most common engine configuration that street motorcyclists are riding around on, care to wager a guess?
Absolutely. the most common engine configuration over here is the IL4, whether in 400/600/750 or 1000cc form.
Yes we see a lot of BMW flat twins and quite a few H*rleys, but V twins are certainly not as common or popular as the 4 cylinder bikes. UK sales figures don't even show a V Twin in the top ten selling machines last year.
The Buell is great at what it does, but it makes me cringe when the publicity and PR BS tries to tell us that 'This is the motor you want for the street', and 'Anyone can go fast in a straight line', because that is just an excuse for making a bike that doesn't match the performance of the opposition.
Nobody ever asked what me or anyone else I know what engine they wanted. And actually going fast in a straight line (in addition to going round corners) is pretty much a prerequisite these days in a performance bike. |
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