| Author | Message | ||
     Buellshyter |
Sounds like Harley/Buell has more leaks than the Bismark. Court is gonna run out of fingers trying to plug all those holes that keep popping up. It's hard enough keeping a secret between two people. Imagine when there are hundreds involved. | ||
| Elvis |
We've been hearing rumors of a water-cooled Buell for, what? About 10 years now? I don't think anyone has gotten fired for spreading that rumor yet.  Anyone want to bet that most of the dealers or other people who "work for Buell" out there talking about what's coming get their information from this board? | ||
| Xlcr |
As old Ben Franklin said, Three can keep a secret, If two of them are dead. | ||
| Altima02 |
Buell can not come out with any new models for the next 2 years. Its just fact. Because that is when I graduate and I can't afford a new one until then. | ||
| Boxjoint |
I have to add to this thread. I pretty much Lurk here (although I am a member) and was inches from buying a Buell but the wife was not comfy on any of them so I got a 2007 Superglide (I like it but it still ain't no Buell! ) BUT- I DO NOT get this secrecy thing in the motorcycle industry. Most feel that keeping the new models a matter of national security is necessary because then "Nobody will buy the current model" and I call BS on this. For those who want to ride asap will just say Ahh fuggit I'm getting the Yamah, Suzuki, etc.. and they will have the new bike before this "Ground Breaking" model is released. Also for those who are willing to wait will forgo the purchase for the year just to see if what is coming out is for them. If it ain't that is good too because "Then I can get this years model as a leftover at a substancially deflated price" I see it as a loose loose situation. If I was the head honcho I would intentionally leak a few pre production photo's just to see if the idea is well recieved or to create interest in the brand. BTW- Before the superglide I had a 2001 ZRX 1200 R. HAD I SEEN the pre-production photo's of the XB9 series prior to that purchase I would have waited for the Buell. It's a tactic that bites themself in the ass IMO. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
boxjoint has a great point why does buell do this i mean look at the car guys the show there new stuff off several years before they come out with them and it usually has good results i mean look at chevy they relesed what the 2008 camero is going to look like and have in it and after that there was people left and right a the chevy dealer trying to reserve one same thing happened with dodge and the new challenger that is fixing to come out besides that if they are comming out with some thing new and really great it could or would generate more interest for the brand and maybe pull in new customers that might want to buy what they have now before upgrading to the next new one that is comming out. | ||
| Ridrx |
Element of surprise. Nobody can compete(initially anyway) with a new design if they don't know what the new design is. I like the last minute unveil. The speculation and anticipation is fun. The results will surely be worth the wait, be it dirt or street. BTW...Stopped at the local dealer to pick up oil/filter. I'm standing at the parts counter and notice a brightly colored object on the helmet display. I walk over to discover a full on moto-x helmet complete w/goggles! I asked the parts guy.."It's a little early yet to have those out, no?". He replies..."Some guy's ride them Uly's real hard."LOL | ||
| Court |
>>>I see it as a loose loose situation. I'm assuming you meant "lose-lose", but got a kick out of the "loose-loose". There's more to the strategy than just diluting current sales. In addition arguments, valid ones, can be made for the "troll early and see how it's received" school of thinking. But, take the Honda NAS for example, it requires millions and millions of $$ just to take a peek and it's not a very telling peek. Me? When I saw a glimpse of the MV4, I loved it. My love however ebbed when it hit the market at $45,000. Buell has less, by about $2.6B, resources to dabble in R&D. Some of you recall the Japanese Honor Wars where someone leaked something and Yamaha fought back by rolling out a new bike a week. Many companies maintain a confidential inventory of product in advanced states of production, like 80%, where they, if they see something coming from a competitor, can quickly counter. The confidentiality strategy also serves you well in terms of managing expectations. Say for instance that Buell showed is a "hypothetical 200RWHP" something and later declared (as Honda and Yamaha did) that is was a design exercise. . . I can hear the uproar. In addition, Buell simply, given the large number of current projects, doesn’t have a crocus of "spare" engineers to dabble in the world of "what if". It's a case of nobody's right, nobody's wrong and a case can be advanced for both schools of thought based on the company. What is important is that whatever rules and strategy a company follows is that the folks who pledge to maintain confidentiality honor their word. I suspect, given some of the loose lips at Harley-Davidson PDC, you'll see less Buell development there. In fact, I'm fairly certain of it. Some of the HD folks like to swill some beer and do a poor job of keeping their mouths shut. It has been fun to drop a few "tracers" in the rumor mill and follow them back to their source. Some of you in the MKE area may have noted we are shy one or two folks over the last 5 months. Bottom line is . . . you should do what you say you will. The classic is still the time Buell gave some dealers a "sneak peek" in Arizona. Thank goodness these guys are not in national defense, they chatter like chipmunks when they get drunk. | ||
| Rocketman |
Boxjoint, my sentiments entirely, and I've said so on every occasion Buell create this dumb fiasco. Public perception of what a motorcycle manufacturer is interested in bringing to the market is an important consideration for the design. Suzuki's B King prototype was show around the world at many motorcycle shows several years ago. Just a couple of years ago, it seems Suzuki had watched the growing trend for such motorcycles so polled motorcyclist the world over for their thoughts towards producing the B King. The first models are been delivered to dealers now. MV first showed their pre production Brutale at motorcycle shows around the world every year from 1999 to 2004 year of production. Yamaha showed their pre production MT01 and prototype MTOS at motorcycle shows around the world. Yamaha then asked its customers to contact their website and express their interest in the model to enable Yamaha to decide to produce the MT01. They did. Ducati's Hypermoto is a product of similar marketing. Ducati unveiled their 1098 several months before you could get your hands on one. This despite Ducati dealers still having stock of their soon to be preceded 999 models. KTM and their Super Duke, likewise. 2008 will see KTM's long awaited RC8 superbike in the showrooms, and we all know what it looks like. Have done for years. The list of motorcycle manufacturers wooing their prospective customers with prototypes and pre production models is endless. Buell it seems are at odds with such behaviour. When MCN UK showed pictures of the XB12S a few days ahead of Buells launch, there was holly shit kicked up around here from the highest branch in the Buell tree. Yet just last year Erik Buell courted MCN with interviews and test rides with members of the UK public. One overriding conclusion my sceptical arse would garner from Buells closed closet agenda is Buell don't have to rely upon enticing the outside world with their design of motorcycle. The home market is Buells 'bread and butter' and such means Buell have no real competition in the market place for the volume of production they achieve. In other words, Buell build only as many units as they can sell, and sell every single one they will. Keeping the new models a secret therefore works in Buells favour, even if they lose a few sales to other brands because of such, as no criticism can be offered towards what no one knows is next. Nor can what is coming next be emulated , usurped or likewise by others. Me? I see this form of marketing as totally frustrating. If I were in the market for a new model, I wouldn't want to wait for what is coming only to find I didn't want it, and riding season was nearly over. Furthermore, I believe it alienates the customer from the brand, as in they're keeping secrets from me. Why? Only the hard core Buell hat wearers on BadWeB are interested in playing the daft guess what's coming game. Rocket | ||
| Boxjoint |
>>>I see it as a loose loose situation. I'm assuming you meant "lose-lose", but got a kick out of the "loose-loose". Hey, I typed that late at night after a 10 hr day at work so I had twitchy fingers.  I see some of your points but find a few to contradict my theory: " But, take the Honda NAS for example, it requires millions and millions of $$ just to take a peek and it's not a very telling peek." They do not need to spend money to orchestratate a sneak peek, just don't go firing every body who says "Yep, something new is coming out" Also, if the testing grounds were a little less guarded the moto press will do all the revealing for you free of charge. The confidentiality strategy also serves you well in terms of managing expectations. Say for instance that Buell showed is a "hypothetical 200RWHP" something and later declared (as Honda and Yamaha did) that is was a design exercise. . . I can hear the uproar. Here too I see it the other way around. Just in this thread the speculations run wild. A few "spy shots" would narrow the scope of what is to come and people could specualte on that. A lot here are saying (myself included) that there will be no water cooled Buell this year. For me it's not a problem, I like air cooled bikes. For those who will only buy water cooled will not even give Buell a glance and buy something else. Ahh, but in say, motorcyclist magazine or something there is a spyshot of what looks like a totaly re-desighned Buell they might wait on that purchase in order to see what is up. Buell simply, given the large number of current projects, doesn’t have a crocus of "spare" engineers to dabble in the world of "what if". Again, keeping things top secret everything is what if. If I were top brass I would want to know if a model would be well recieved prior to putting it in full production. That way they would not say "What if this thing don't sell? " What is important is that whatever rules and strategy a company follows is that the folks who pledge to maintain confidentiality honor their word. Agreed. I used to work for Ford Motor Co. at the assembly plant and we were ordered to keep tight lipped about not the vehicles, but the production processes. Like I said in my prior post- I bought the ZRX in early July of 2001. Buell released the XB9 in what, late July early August of that year? Had I seen or heard of it I would have waited. To this day Buells are my favorite motorcycles. I got the superglide because the ulysses is too tall for my wife to comfortably get on (I am fortunate to have a wife that loves to ride with me. She encourages the purchase of the bike) . Now say for example Buell released a bike that had seating like the Ulysses but was on the regular XB platform (lower like the lightning) and accepted the luggage, That would be a second sale lost from me to the company because I had no clue what was on the horizon when I purchased. | ||
| Rocketman |
What is important is that whatever rules and strategy a company follows is that the folks who pledge to maintain confidentiality honor their word. No one can argue with that. The way I see it though, this is Buells strongest point about keeping pre production models secret. It therefore has little, if anything,to do with the forthcoming from Buell. I still agree with Box's other points. That said, the most perfect conclusion one can draw from Buells take on how they should release their motorcycles is as Court said....... It's a case of nobody's right, nobody's wrong and a case can be advanced for both schools of thought based on the company. No one can argue with that too. Not even me! Rocket | ||
| Davegess |
Who is making more money H-D or Ducati? I figure whatever way works for the one making the big profits is likely the correct way to go. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Remember the "teaser" video they put up about "Own all the corners" in ~June 2005 before the Uly came out? That was pretty cool, I just wonder what effect it had on the marketing of the Ulysses. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Who is making more money H-D or Ducati? Ducati just had another $150,000,000 infusion of cash and laid off 100 employees because dealers were refusing to take new product they had no room for with existing inventory not moving. You can read about it here. http://www.ducati.com/company/pr_eng_2081_0_cig_20 0706_eng.pdf In their latest, just the other day, press release, Ducati's results are looking better as they continue to work under a "turnaround plan". Don't get me wrong . . . I think they are a great company and I love their stuff. It's just that they treat business like my younger sister treats a credit card. Harley-Davidson made more than $150,000,000 net profit in the first 3 weeks of 2007. Have we ever discussed this before? | ||
| 2kx1 |
UH, That was from July of 2006,Ducati has been reporting higher profits for the past 6 months. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Court measures things on a Earth based timeline.... Eons | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
ok now heres my problem with this hole situation yall talk about HD being like like this when in fact they are not they have released their proto type of the XR1200 to see how the european world would recive it (i think is the wrong market for that bike) but buell has yet to do anything like that. All i am saying is how do they know if the customer is going to like the next new thing if they dont ask the customer by showing it off before they come out with it if they dont show it off before hand so they can get some feed back before building thousands of them and risking getting a bad turn around on them (ie nobody likes it and them not selling many) I mean all they would have to do is build one show it off at a few show and say hey heres what this bike has this is what it will probly look something like what do you think. if people like it then they can build it if people do not like it then they can improve it to meet the customers wants. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"I suspect, given some of the loose lips at Harley-Davidson PDC, you'll see less Buell development there." I highly doubt HD is going to let power train development be tested anywhere else but PDC. | ||
| Theshue |
All i am saying is how do they know if the customer is going to like the next new thing if they dont ask the customer by showing it off before they come out with it if they dont show it off before hand so they can get some feed back before building thousands of them and risking getting a bad turn around on them (ie nobody likes it and them not selling many) I mean all they would have to do is build one show it off at a few show and say hey heres what this bike has this is what it will probly look something like what do you think. if people like it then they can build it if people do not like it then they can improve it to meet the customers wants. Doesn't always work that way though. look back a couple of years to the Pontiac Aztec, the show car wowed and amazed people so much that everyone begged them to build it, pontiac did and it didn't sell for crap. | ||
| Court |
Yes. The "turnaround plan" seems to be working. The one five years ago did too. Read the financicals carefully. What appears to be an improved cash position (may look like a profit to the untrained) is the result from a 150,000,000 loan. Look. . . Ducati is going to be here 20 years from now. And, unless I miss my guess, they'll still be taking swings all over the financila map and steering themselves into the road ditch and leaping back out . . . In 1998 you couldn't buy parts, the vendors had cut them off for not paying their bills. TPG danced with the govt for a couple years before diving in. The Italian govt is notorious for luring in big hitter investors and the moment the cheques written they seize the entire sum for back taxes. That was all great entertainment. I got a bit of a giggle when TPG leapt out to purchase Burger King . . . a true "Swap a Monster for a Whopper" twist. I spoke at the opening of the Ducati Flagship US store and damned if that babe isn't a deli now . . . the party was gret though peppered with celebs on rollerblades being pulled by pocket pups dressed in plaid. It's also where I got my ass in deep doo-doo when I quipped to Wesley Snipes . . "good to see you Spike". That there's what they call a Fox Pox. Ducati, for me, remains great entertainment. They make great looking bikes and I wish them nothing but the best. I am constantly reminded of a high school girlfriends who was a very naughty girl . . I never wanted to marry her, but I am thrilled to have known her. The world has a need for naughty girls and Ducatis. Clear enough?  | ||
| 2kx1 |
If Buell is going after the 1098 which what was said ( at least rumored to have been said ) at the last dealer meeting ,then it should be safe to say that the next Buell will be going way upmarket in a completely different class of motorcycle then anything they have built before.So it should have about 160hp and 90ftlbs, weigh about 380lbs and come in at least 2 states of tune. That is what is expected. If they build they will come. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I hear it on the floor every day with the Harley gang. "IF I had known that Harley was going to go to the 96 c.i. and a six speed for 2007, I never would have bought my 2006" You have never heard so many piszed off bagger riders whine at one moment. On the path to selling out our Buells so when the new ones hit, they are the only ones available, down to four left. Get em while they are hot and here. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Any VROD Rumors floating around? I'm a fan of the Street Rod in particular, and production on that model stopped in April 2007. So my question is... Will HD have a Street Rod replacement in 2008, or should I snap up an 06/07? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
That is the one that is in the line up that they said that they are indeed CANCELING. 2007 is the last year for that bike. I dont know if a replacement is coming, I still have an 2006 ! The naked street riding posture has been a very small niche for the Harley rider locally. We have only sold 3 in two years | ||
| Blake |
Lars (2kx1), That is the first ever I have heard about a rumor that Buell is out to counter the Ducati 1098, at least for 2008 models anyway. "...160hp ....90ftlbs, ...380lbs ... That is what is expected." That is exciting to talk about, but based on no rumor that I know, unless you are talking about the XBRR I suppose. Well I take it back somewhat as there was some comment shared about a Buell hyper-sport, but who the heck knows what that means exactly. It could mean a fully faired machine. One month and we'll hopefully know, at least for the 2008 model lineup. | ||
| Blake |
All this discussion about debuting a new motorcycle prior to production release... Some folks sure seem to have a poor memory. The XB9R was announced and debuted long before it hit the showroom. The BadWeB archives are proof. If a new 2008 Buell Sport Bike appears that borrows significantly from the XBRR, can the complainers still be upset? Personally, I think pre-announcing and debuting by any significant time, the release of a new model of motorcycle that is intended to lead the industry is very poor strategy. The folks debuting their new motorcycles long before they ever see the show room, the Ducati Hypermotard, the KTM LC8, the MV Augustas, in my opinion are all a defensive effort to try to counter the actual in the showroom releases of their major competition. But when you have what you think to be a major market share expanding product, it doesn't make much sense to me to alert your competition to it ahead of time, especially when your competition may be capable of a very quick response. So I guess to me it seems like a choice between convincing the market to patiently hold-off on buying from your competition if they'll just be patient enough, or preventing for as long as possible your competition from responding to your latest greatest offering and retaining market share for a longer period after the bike is put into the showroom. It's an alternative between gaining possible early market share versus prolonged in the showroom market share. As Court and Rocketman agree, so must I. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) I agree that either strategy may be valid and probably is depending on the specific circumstance. Then comes the issue of how long in advance do you debut a new model? I think Ducati did well with the Hypermotard. It was only a matter of months. Any more than a year in advance and I think the early debut is detrimental to business. Frankly, I think that KTM have hurt themselves horribly by failing for sooooo soooo long to deliver their hyped-up superbike to the market. Ducati The same goes for that Yamaha muscle bike and the Brutale. Just my opinion on account of I lost interest in the "just wait a little longer" promotions after the first couple years. "True genius ships." True marketing genius snags... more market share. (Message edited by skully on June 10, 2007) | ||
| 2kx1 |
Blake, My understanding was that the only bike in the hypersport category was the 1098. One other thing thatI have noticed is that every new Buell that has been released HAS been in a new category marketwise for Buell. 1. XBRR factory racebike 2. ULY adv-tourer 3. STT super-moto So the next logical step would be an all-out STFUHTFOGOOTFW bike . | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thank God they don't announce. People would have been going on and on about plastic sideplates on the new TT, and they would have scrapped the whole project, denying me what I hope will be my next bike. (after one of you yahoos buys one, gets bored of it, and sells it to me used for $5k). | ||
| Court |
If Buell didn't keep this stuff underwraps. . . well. . . what would happen to the internet? | ||
| Boxjoint |
I see a lot of people making the connection to Harley's success with keeping tight lipped. My contention is that most people who will buy Harley will buy Harley reguardless. Buell is a bit different. Those who want liquid cooling will not wait to "see if" it happens, they will go out and get that speed tripple for a street fighter. Fact is that Buell does not have the following that HD has. Therefore their marketing strategy should be adjusted accordingly. |
