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Sarodude
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Re A/F guages...

Who says you've got to permanently mount 'em? If you had a heated guage, couldn't you set up some contraption to sniff your exhaust so you could clamp on the sensor and guage, go ride, and tune? If it can be made effective, you'd not even have to weld on a bung (uh, I said bung!)...

I'm may try that out and see how it works...

-Saro
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Jerome
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 11:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Neil : I've installed my gauge in a black round cup sealed with some silicon, against the left mirror. It makes nearly symetry to the front brake master cylinder on the right, and I find that it looks pretty nice, especially with the a/f gauge white dash fitting the white dashes of the speedo and tach (sorry no pictures, I'll have to buy a digital camera one day...). If I had to install/dismantle stuff each time there is tuning to do, I would probably not use it. And this is when surprises happen like my example above concerning muffler repacking that the a/f gauge is much useful.

Saro : remember that if you put your heated O2 sensor in the exhaust outlet, you'll get info about the average mixture for both cylinders. Being hotter, the rear cylinder runs leaner and if you try to tune close to stoechiometric the average mixture, IMHO it may end with a hole in the rear piston.
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Sarodude
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ah, but you assume that I HAVE a rear cylinder! :) I'm just a Blastard...

Also, how does it run leaner if it's hotter? It may NEED a richer mix to LIVE - but I don't see how it runs leaner because it is hotter. The funky 45 deg firing deal may cause some anomalies with regards to intake and exhaust resonances which may result in uneven breathing and mixtures front and back (the 2 stroker in me will NEVER die). However, I don't see how heat alone would cause it to run leaner.

Just one guy's opinion...

-Saro
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Lsr_Bbs
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, that's pretty close to how I mount mine. Really, no more than a 10 minute deal. Use a hose clamp around the mirror stalk, to the cup mount, run the wires along the harnes (w/ a few zip ties) and plug into the ecm connections (remember, I don't have the DDFI box anymore, so I can use all those groovy connectors). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I just don't like it....but can't deny it's functionality!

More importantly, the O2 sensor (heated or not) really needs to be further up the exhaust stream than clamped at the end of the pipe. Closer to the header, the better.

Saro, you've got it backwards...a lean condition causes the engine to run hotter, not the other way around.

Neil Garretson
X0.5
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Sarodude
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Neil-

Read the post right above mine...

-Saro
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Henrik
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jim. Jerome, Neil; thanks for the links and input. I'll probably go ahead and try some set-up myself. There are some nice (read $$$) units out there, but I'll go more low cost and basic.

Btw. I did a search for A/F metering and found some BBS chat about the K&N unit. Concensus was not to buy that set-up

Thanks
Henrik
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Jerome
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Saro, you're right, my apologizes. I've stupidly reversed the argument. Being less efficiently cooled down, the rear cylinder needs to run richer for lowering the head temperature.

Still, if one tunes the mixture based on an average reading of both cylinders, one takes the risk to provide a too lean mixture to the rear cylinder, thus warming it up, leading in the best case to knocking and in the worst case to a piston hole.

But you don't care, as you're a "single" lover... :-)
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Rocketman
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, nice info guys. Jerome, I found your info on this topic last time around , to be real good. I recall Peter saying how he saw changes on his A\F whilst riding through the tunnel in A*dam. It's got to be the 'cheap mans' dyno !

I really fancy one myself but haven't prioritised it yet. As I said though, I've only ever seen the K&N one in the 'flesh' and it does look a tad 2nd rate, but not to confuse, I was talking from the point of view of having it permanently mounted, and it probabaly works great, but it looked tacky (nice word Neil) to me. Now if it came in a carbon case :)

Rocket in England
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Lsr_Bbs
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well Mr. Rocketman, it just so happens that autometer just started offering carbon fibre gauge cups...so now you'll have to re-prioritize!

Neil Garretson
X0.5
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Henrik
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2002 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rocket:

CF gauge here, do a search for air fuel ratio. Summit Racing also have several different O2 sensor bungs available.

Nordskog Racing also have some nice and not too pricey A/F gauges. Their O2 sensor has a nice quality look to it also; 4-wire, wire sheath etc. attach some sort of waterproof Bosh connector and you're good to go

Henrik
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Rocketman
Posted on Friday, January 25, 2002 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thankyou gentlemen. I'm humbled :)

I'll take a peak later.

Rocket in England
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Spacemanspiff
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 12:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hello all. I'm new to the Buell family, having just purchased an 02 X-1 and have put on a V&H can only. I have been told that I need to "remap" the DDFI and am looking for any expert advice as to which way to go. My dealer has a dyno booth, which I plan to utilize, and has suggested the Power Commander set up to start with. All I am looking for is the proper combination to avoid running too lean, while still enjoying the added performance. Any and all advice is appreciated. I have about 600 miles on her already. Also, I've noticed that she runs pretty hot. Is this to be expected and is it common (or necessary) to install an oil cooler? Thanks again for any input.

Shawn
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 03:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shawn: The DDFI is self teaching. The simple swap of a muffler in no way requires any action by the dealer to "remap" the DDFI. You may want to consider adding a race ECM and a K&N air filter. The race ECM will boost your low and mid range by richening the mixture a bit. The K&N filter will help teh intake breath easier at the top end. You WILL need to have your DDFI (at least the throttle position sensor) recalibrated if you swap ECM's for the race version.

The full race kit is the real bomb for significantly boosting performance, but even just the race ECM will make a noticeable difference.
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Ccryder
Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2002 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shawn:
Blake's got it right about the remap. At a minimum you need the RACE ECM! From my best source, the stock ECM cannot correctly compensate for even the V&H and you will be lean. Next best step and cheapest and easist is the Race ECM. It will take you about 5 min. to instal and the Dealer about 20 min. to verify the TPS.
My poor Buelligan race kit is:
A: Race ECM
B: Slip-on V&H (good power) White Bro (better power and more reliable)
C: K&N filter
D: Venturi ring
E: Gut air box Airbox (go to the bottom of the page)

The Power Commander is supposed to be a little better than the race ECM. It does require a dyno and considerable knowledge to get it mapped correctly. IMHO for the almost 3x $'s (including 2 wire 02) compared to the Race ECM, spend your money on the race header. YRMV but I know your grin factor will not.

Time2Ride
Neil S.
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Spacemanspiff
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 12:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Great information, Thanks guys. Bear with me, however, as I ask a couple of questions. I'm leaning towards the Race ECM (no pun intended) but am unclear on the recalibration (throttle position sensor) that you are recommending. I guess I thought you would achieve both from one calibration (the race ECM), but apparently there are two separate calibrations needed, one for ignition and one for fuel injection, right? (at least that's what I am getting from your advice) Is the TPS calibration available through a stock Buell/Harley cartridge? Also, what benefit does the Venturi ring provide for the airbox? Does it create a vacuum that draws in more airflow? I'm scratchin' my head here, patiently waiting for the light bulb to energize.
Again, I apologize for my ignorance but this is fascinating, if not slightly confusing.

Appreciative,
Shawn
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 01:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shawn, Good questions, both. I'll try to answer coherently... Your dealer will perform one calibration of the throttle position sensor circuit for your new race ECM. There is more involved than just that, but basically the calibration in effect tells the new ECM when the throttle is closed based on the voltage output of the sensor. The microchip (ECM) takes it from there. The ECM controls both ignition AND fuel injection all in one module. The venturi ring reduces drag (resistance to airflow) at the carb inlet. It simply improves the efficiency of the intake. :)

See you out there,

Blake
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Milehi
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've got a carb ('97 S1) question... At what RPM ranges do the slow jet, Main jet and needle exert the most influence. I'm afaid the some of the 'givens' of my carb experience (in-line fours) don't rlate well to a V-Twin. As soon as a few more parts show up, I'm going to install the race header, SuperTrapp and re-jet the carb. I've already got the race ECU and a Force intake on the bike.
TIA
Ray K.
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

MileHi: Some discussion from the Buell S1 Service Manual, online version...


Quote:

Idle- and Low-Speed Circuit
At idle (with the throttle plate closed and the main air stream obstructed), engine idle speed is maintained by fuel metered through the slow jet. Air from the slow air jet mixes with the fuel and is delivered to the idle port at the low pressure side of the throttle plate.

At low-speed (with the throttle plate slightly open), the transfer ports are exposed to the low pressure side of the throttle plate, and additional fuel is directed to the barrel of the carburetor. During the transition period from idle speed to mid-range, the idle and transfer ports also supply some fuel to the carburetor barrel; this allows for a smoother transition.

The venturi opening is reduced by the low position of the vacuum piston. This enables initial air stream velocities to be higher than normally attainable with fixed-venturi carburetors. The higher air stream velocities provide improved atomization of fuel necessary for good acceleration and driveability.

Mid-Range Slide Position
As the throttle plate is opened, air flow increases through the carburetor; this causes air pressure to decrease in the carburetor venturi (near the needle jet) and in the chamber above the diaphragm (which is vented to the venturi through a vacuum port and passage in the vacuum piston).

The chamber beneath the diaphragm is vented to higher atmo-spheric pressure by a passage to the carburetor inlet. The higher air pressure at the underside of the diaphragm over-comes spring pressure and moves the vacuum piston upward in proportion to the pressure difference between the chambers.

The tapered needle moves upward with the vacuum piston, thereby opening the needle jet. With the needle jet open, the main bleed tube is exposed to the lower pressure of the car-buretor venturi. This causes fuel in the float bowl (at atmo-spheric pressure) to flow through the main jet and into the main bleed tube. Air from the main air jet (at atmospheric pressure) flows through the main bleed tube openings and mixes with the incoming fuel. The air/fuel mixture is then delivered through the needle jet into the main air stream of the venturi.

High-Speed Circuit Slide Position
As the throttle plate is opened, the pressure difference between the chambers above and below the dia-phragm increases and the vacuum piston moves further upward.

The venturi opening increases and the needle is lifted further out of the needle jet. The quantity of fuel and the volume of air are simultaneously increased and metered to the proportions of engine demand by the variable venturi and needle lift. With the vacuum piston fully upward, the venturi opening is fully enlarged and the needle jet opening exposure to the air stream is at its maximum. Air and fuel supplies are now available in quantities sufficient to meet maximum engine demand.


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Milehi
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Blake... But what are the approximate RPMs for each range... For example on my Bandit the Pilot jet (slow jet in H-D terminology) influences 0-3000 RPM, the from 3000 - 5000 I'm dealing with slide/needle position and the Main jet affects 5000 - redline (11000). Hell, I'm still having to make the adjustments to my attitude when riding, I really don't wanna keep bouncing the S1 off it's rev limiter, I guess what I'm asking for is a reference point applicable to the V-Twin. Today I discovered the virtues of massive low end torque on twisty roads! Gawd, I hope I have clarified (and not confused) my questions... Thanks again!
Ray K.
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Blake
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The effective ranges of a carb's fuel metering circuits do overlap, and also depend on throttle position, but I see what you are asking. If you are having trouble or lackluster performance, shouldn't it be obvious which range (low, mid, high) is involved?

Aaron or another experienced dyno tuner will be able to tell you for certain. I would estimate...

Idle Circuit: Throttle closed, below 2000 rpm

Slow Jet: Below 2500 RPM

Needle: 2000 to 5000 RPM

Main Jet: 4000 to 6800 RPM
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Milehi
Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks again Blake... That's exactly what I was wondering... Now when I put everything on I'll set thr carb up using the recommended baseline and tune from there. With this information I'll at least know what needs tweaking...
This board is a real help!
Ray K.
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Blake
Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 12:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

MileHi: If you will follow the suggestions posted at the top of this page, you will be way ahead of the game as far as carb tuning is concerned. You may want to start with a 195 main which I think was the stock main jet in your carb.

Good luck!
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Milehi
Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake, that's my intent... After all why should I try and re-invent the wheel... Now I do live at 5000+ feet... Should I start out with the 190 or the 185 jet? Ive got all the carb parts, I'm just waiting on some brackets for the header/exhaust before I tackle the project.
Ray K.
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Aaron
Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 09:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Always safer to start fat and work down. Let me know if you want to tune it.
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Milehi
Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Aaron, I give it a try on my own at first...I'd expect that a single carb should be a bit easier to tweak that four (what a pain that was). Would you recommend that I start with the 190? Don't worry about me asking questions! I DON'T like digging big holes that I can't climb out of!
Ray K.
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Aaron
Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, that's where I'd personally start, with the N65C needle (unshimmed). My bikes have shown that they like the 180 or 185 at this elevation.
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Spike
Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Anyone have any suggestions for the carb farts? I'm currently using a 45 idle, a 200 main, and a shimmed N65C needle. I've experimented from 1-4 turns out of the idle mixture screw with no significant change. I've checked for vacuum leaks (carb cleaner). The bike seems to pull well all the way from idle, but I still have the occasional pop back through the airbox at low rpm. As I understand it, popping is caused by a lean condition. Should I go bigger on the idle jet? Also, what is the benefit of the N65C needle? On close examination the only difference I can find between the stock (N0KK) needle and the N65C is that the N65C is longer. As I understand it, this would make the bike more lean. Should I try going back to the N0KK? TIA

Spike
'99 Cyclone
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The profile of the N65C is different. It's the diameter versus length profile that makes the difference. The shim lifts the needle away from the needle jet thus increasing richness.
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Jmartz
Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 03:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Spike:

Lift the needle in .015/.020 increments and your carb fahrts will go away. Not sure you need a 200 main. At 1000 ft elevation I run a 195 on a Nallinized/.526 cam motor for maximum top end.

My CV44 is somehwere between "spot on" and "smear off" with only ocasional fahrts at cruising rpm (ca. 3000). After much adoo I've concluded that a stellar top end is going to cost me a bit in drivabilty and hard starts.
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Jim_Witt
Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 12:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just trying to do a little research, without success. Would anyone in the "know" please explain to me the "problem/options" (besides money) of putting dual-carbs on a Buell (with of course the proper engine modifications ). Are the heads not available and/or the intake manifold. Would this be a total custom application for a Buell?

Thanks,
-JW:>)
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