| Author | Message | ||
     Geyservillebob |
Buelliedan, I had the dealer install the race kit but when I picked up the old parts I noticed the stock ECM was missing. When I went and asked for the stock ECM I was told that my race ECM was bad (they said they put it on but "it didn't make any difference" so it must have been bad)so they had put the stock one back on. They handed me the "bad" race ECM and told me I should go ask for a replacement or my money back. I got the replacement and it is now installed. I guess I need to update my profile since it was last edited inbetween the kit installation and the installation of the race ECM. The pinging is much less with the race ECM but it is still not gone. I get pinging still when the motor is hot and I accelerate hard off the line. It stops after a second or so. I installed plugs I got from Tat that are supposed to be equivelent to the 10R12 but they didn't have that number on them. I don't remember the number on Tats plugs but they were NGK makes. I'm more or less OK with the level of pinging now. Does it sound like I'm about where I should be on this? Frank | ||
| Buelliedan |
Frank, I run the NGK plugs myself. They should be a DPR9EA9 plug. Glad to hear that you have the Race ECM. Sure sounds like you need a better dealer cause your present dealer is a bunch of idiots!!! | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Yah, and you don't even know 10% of it. About 2 in 5 times I have a good experience there and some of the guys there are OK but in general it's terrible. It might just be me though because I don't like to have to be an a**hole (conflict avoidance is for me) but I'm afraid that's what it takes at that dealership. Frank | ||
| Blake |
Saro: Not me. | ||
| Reepicheep |
GyservilleBob... I did the same thing for the same reason... and don't regret it a bit. When you relocate the voltage regulator (the big heatsink thingy) go to silly extremes to get a good ground. Lots of scraping and sanding to insure metal to metal contact, and I even ran an additional grounding strap to a third ground point. I believe this is standard practice for Modesto, if it is good enough for them its good enough for me (and others here have blown regulators shortly after doing the relocation, but nobody has if they did lots of grounding). Bill | ||
| Milehi |
Here's a question that may have been discussed before.... But I'll ask it anyway. I have the Racing ECU and have ordered the Buell Racing headers and can. Has anyone tried the Jet Hot coating (or HPC) on the exhaust? Any popsitive or negative comments on this? If I do it, should I also get the can coated too? Also, should I spring for the updated header mount. BTW, my 'new' toy is a '97 S1. | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Milehi, I had my race header and muffler can coated by Jet Hot. I also did the mounting brackets. I choose the black finish, it only comes in a dull satin finish and I'd prefer a slightly glossier look. The actual service and turn around was great. The color coat was a little thin in some places and the undercoat showed through slightly. I was told that it is the undercoat that is important as far as the thermal properties go and it looked fine once installed on the bike. My main hope was that the header would run cooler so the heat would be reduced on my right leg inner thigh area but there was not much improvement there. I can't tell if there were any improvements in performance. The coating has been pretty durable but I have noticed that it is easy to scratch close to the exhaust ports where it would be hottest, don't know if this is expected for this process. If your main goal is improved appearance then I'd give this process good marks. The black header is more to my liking than the blue look my stock header always had, I'm not big into frequent cleaning. Frank | ||
| V2win |
Aaron, That extra little mount on the early bikes, broke on my bike after about the first 3000 miles.(97 S3T). I took it off since it would not work with the race kit I put on when it broke. The race muffler lasted about 20,000 miles before the muffler and front clamp mount broke. I now have almost another 30,000 on the Borla complete exhaust system. So far so good. I think the Borla setup has the advantage of a little built in movement since its 3 pieces. | ||
| Dave |
Anyone have the part number for the front stainless exhaust braket (hanger) that comes with the Buell Race Header and Muffler? It's the piece that is attached to the header with a big clamp and a single bolt to the black (upgraded) yoke looking bracket. It may be listed on the race header installation kit instructions. That's always the first thing I toss ... sheeesh .. instructions? That's like asking for directions when you're lost ... DAve | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Oz666 A 98 M2 race pipe/muffler should fit a 98 S3. If you keep the stock airbox but put a K&N air filter you will get to keep the lowers, just make sure you velcro the lower right mount. Geyservillebob, Check your base timing, you might be able to adjust it till the pinging is gone. On the new muffler mount (A MUST HAVE for EVERY BUELL ever made!) make sure you have a good ground. If Buell engines weren't funny looking paint shakers, would any of these problems exists? | ||
| V2win |
Yo DAve, Part # 65455-96Y. Retail was $39.99 back in 1999. Dealer could not find the # to place order. Had to call Buell. Took 3 days to arrive. I might have an extra very used, broken, rewelded one left. Would have to search thru the garage. If you need one while yours is coming in, let me know. I will come up with a loaner. | ||
| Ccryder |
Frank: The new header support, as you said is not a recall. But, in the same S/B about installing the new type mount it also instructs the Dealer that he is to turn his old stock of isolator bushings back in to BMC for "credit". Sooooo, the rubber isolator bushings for your stock mount are no longer available from BMC. With all the cracking of this that and the other you have experienced, the new header support can't hurt and, from very personal experience, it may help a lot! My personal experience is based on 25,000 miles in 14 months on my 99' S3T that ate 11 rh lowers, 2 headers, 2 stock mufflers, 3 sets of bag inners, 3 front header supports too many bushings and the list went on and on. I was probably one of the first handfull of Buelligans with the new header support and it did help poor ol' Sparky. One more hint, when the race ECM is installed there is a specific sequence of steps the Technician needs to follow to make sure everything is correct, like timing, TPS zero and other critical parameters. Usually if this process if carefully followed, the pinging will be gone except in cases of poor gas or very hot weather. If you and/ or your Dealer did not notice much improvement with the race kit and Race ECM, then the FI/ Ignition is not set properly. Other fuelie Buelligans will readily testify that the race ECM installed with a good exhaust made a big difference in their Buell. I see you'r out there in CA. Hopefully you can find another Dealer that is more "in tune" with Buells and you will then be able to really appreciate how nice, yes even a 99', Buell can run. All right rant mode off, I'm just having withdrawls because it's snowing and, and.............. Ride more, lean more, Grin more Neil S. gratuitous Sparky Shot  | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Jose, the base timing is slightly retarded (about 1 degree) from stock (by me) to help mitigate the severe pinging I had before the race ECM was added. I was going to put it back to the stock setting after the addition of the race ECM but when I heard it was still pinging a bit I decided to leave it slightly retarded. I'd love to be able to put it back to stock because my bike seems very sensitive to timing settings. Even the 1 degree change was noticeable when accelerating off the line in the seat of the pants test. I'm inclined not to retard it further because I think the small amount of pinging is OK and I'd rather not hit performance anymore. I know there are a lot of opinions on how much or if any pinging is OK. Thanks to everyone who mentioned the ground precaution because I'd be real pissed if the first thing after fixing my broken exhaust stud I ended up with a bad regulator! Frank | ||
| Aaron |
V2win, I'm aware that many people think more flexing of the header is a good thing. But I'm not one of them. Not only does it not make sense to my way of thinking, but I have a story that's exactly the opposite of yours. Things break when I let it flex and the system is durable when I tighten it down. | ||
| Ccryder |
Hey DAve: There are 2 of those slipper mounts here in EVV. Want me to pick one up and drop it by this weekend? The Schwartz express is going to St. Peter's for skating tomorrow PM. Frank: Since the Race/ Stock ECM controls the FI and ignition, tweaking the timing causes the ECM to try and re-compensate for what you intended to compensate for by changing the timing (did that make sense???). I had a VERY good Technician do about an hours test drive tweaking the timing and he found that the ECM just moved it back close to stock. After weeks worth of Buell training he was convinced that proper stock seetings for the timing , TPS, and other ECM parameters was the best. YRMV. Later Neil S. | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Neil, Actually the race ECM may a dramatic improvement in both performance and in pinging reduction. It was the story I got from the dealer that the ECM was bad because it didn't make any difference. The point about the set up of the new ECM is well taken and opens the door for me to tell another one of my dealer stories. When the replacement for my "bad" ECM arrived I went to the deal and picked it up. I asked the mechanic if they needed to install it for me. I was more worried about warranty at the time and I didn't know about the setup procedure. The mechanic (the same guy who said my original ECM was bad) told me no, just put it in myself, in retrospect I see he was basically brushing me off. Later, when I was researching an off the line stall problem on the board, I found out about the calibration procedure that is mandatory when installing a new ECM. I went to the dealership and explained what I'd heard and that I thought I needed this calibration thing done and the mechanic (a different guy) lectured me on how there is no way I could install the ECM myself and how his shop would never had told me to do so and on and on. He asked me who the guy was that told me to do it myself and I decided to evade the question since that guy was standing nearby (conflict avoidance strikes again). I did say that it had been several months back and the he mentioned something to the effect of "that guy doesn't work here anymore". Of course they made me pay for the calibration that should have been part of the race kit installation. I guess I'm living proof of that old PT Barnum adage. Frank | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Neil, it does make sense. The only preceived difference I noted was off idle acceleration it seemed real but who knows. Frank | ||
| Oz666 |
Hi all: Thanks for the responses; I now am armed with a little more info. ASB didn't know if the `98 S3T race header could be fitted with the stock airbox - they had not done one. I had the wrong # for BMC customer support written down, but will call them tomorrow. If it's really just a question of a little modification to the lower (or even a lot) hey, I can use a Dremel - or an angle grinder. Blake - sorry man, EXTEREME frustration, and yes, the snow IS getting to me. But I will gladly take all the hand-holding or any other help/insight/assistance I can get, and I'll count myself lucky. Don (finally shovelled all the way to the garage) | ||
| Blake |
Bob: Have you checked for leaks around your intake manifold seals? Milehi: The free upgrade to the beefed up front muffler mounting bracket (the "Y" bracket) was extended and should still be in effect. Your dealer should perform your upgrade at NO charge. If he fails to understand the upgrade policy, have him call Buell customer service for you and get him enlightened. Aaron: I am forced to agree with you again. When I took delivery of my current '97 Cyclone the support tab you mentioned was not connected to the collector. I bolted it up and the whole system really smoothed out; I could feel the difference at the handlebars and see it in the mirrors. The bad news is that the tiny little tab on the collector gave out after only a few thousand miles. I'll be headed for Shreveport HD/Buell to have the "Y" bracket upgrade performed. Then maybe a race header if I can figure a way to still use my Borla with it. Oz: Having spent a few winters in Girard, PA (near Erie, PA), I know where you're coming from. Hang tough, only three more months till the earth re-appears from beneath that white stuff. | ||
| Al_Lighton |
Hey Don, Volume 3(99), Issue 2 Battle2Win (Donner Days issue, two guys doing stoppies on front cover) shows on page 38 a purty 98 Amazon green S3T with polished and painted everything. The STOCK airbox is painted, lowers are still in place, WITH a race header. It shows the trimming necessary on the lower to make it fit. So there you have it, your difinitive answer. Al | ||
| Sarodude |
Exhausts - Loose or Tight? I have some racing background. My fondest memories are of flogging my 125 gearbox kart around a cold, low grip, tight mini road course (Amago - near Mt Palomar) on race hardened rubber. End digression... Any of you with two stroke experience know that 2 stroke pipes are touchy in many respects. Physical failure is a common occurrence. As the sport started to mature and the vendors, builders, tuners, and racers all got more experieced, ALL of the exhausts went to rubber isolated mounts tied to the motor. Pipe failures have become uncommon. The moral of the story: Allow (or force) the pipe to move WITH the motor. In short, that electrical engineer guy who likes hulking, polluting, parking spot robbing, gas guzzling, and generally annoying SUV's is right.  -Saro | ||
| Aaron |
Well, Saro, thanks, but I'm not sure we're saying the same thing. These motors are rubber mounted to the chassis, and they're inherently unbalanced, so they're moving around a LOT. The exhaust system is hanging on to this vibrator. It has two spots where it's bolted directly to it (the heads), and a couple other spots where it's rubber isolated (the front and rear muffler mounts). This means there's going to be flexing at the solid mounted points, where the header meets the heads. It doesn't seem like a reach at all to say that flexing at those spots is what causes studs to break and nuts to come loose. We can double nut or use fancy fasteners and get the nuts to stay on. But that does nothing to take the flexing off the studs. | ||
| Sarodude |
Aaron- I'm not sure we're NOT saying the same thing... If I understand you properly, you're saying: Pipe flexing at the header is bad. Rigid attachment of pipe to motor, which eliminates said flexing, is good. Even though the kart guys were still using rubber mounts, they went to a mounting system which tied the exhaust to the motor - not the chassis. This reduced the amount of flex at the pipe / motor interface. I THINK they stayed with rubber isolators becuase 2 stroke pipes use thinnish (relative to 4 stroke exhausts) wall steel for the expansion chamber and most of the exhaust and found it to be a good compromise between rigidity (to be nice to the header joint) and compliance (to be nice to the other mount points). Anyway... -Saro | ||
| Stevep |
V2win, Thanks for the part number. I posted pics and asked for the part number a few months ago. Nobody was able to tell me what the number was. Now I might get the hanger replaced. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Uh, unless I'm mistaken, they're still mounted to that vibrating, out-of-balance motor. They mount at the head, the mount by the oil filter and the rear mount. None of the mounts are at a frame member. Personally, I've noticed there's a large margin of 'error' when installing exhaust components. That is, unless your very careful, you can easily get the header or exhaust can out of line, but still tight at one or more mounts which would lead to a situation where the uni-planar mounting (remember, it works on the exhaust too) would be stressing the exhaust...and somethings gonna break then. Guess I've been lucky. Lost one nut in 15k miles (and that's pure statistical chance)...my original supertrapp finally cracked (but that's a design flaw) after 10-12k miles. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Al_Lighton |
What Neil said.... And that Race header shoe is conceptually a good idea but a bad implementation. The U shaped piece that mounts to the hanger virtually guarantees a stressed mount at the collector unless the gods have smiled favorably upon your header tolerances. That's why my shoe has only a single reinforced hanger tab instead of the stock two..adds an extra degree of freedom to accomodate the tolerances. 16K on my 98 S1W, 11K on my 99 S3, headers off&on multiple times, have yet to lose a nut, and I don't use loctite or locknuts. But I ALWAYS retorque three times after the install until things have "settled in". I had one come completely loose once when the bolt on the front hanger fell out (my error, forgot to tighten it). At that point, I replaced the exhaust studs just in case I'd weakened them. My S1W has the new yoked front hanger, but I haven't felt the need to put one on my S3, the urethane bushings are holding up just fine on the old style mount. Like Aaron has said before, it's a mystery to me why some bikes eat pipes for lunch while others just don't. I also trashed an ST front inlet, but like Neil said, that's a design issue. The new design ST is holding up very well after 4K. Knockin on wood..... Al | ||
| Geyservillebob |
I remember once seeing a recommended procedure for installing the exhaust system to assure proper alignment. Does anyone have a pointer to that thread/source or can someone recreate it here? Frank | ||
| Blake |
Neil, I think Saro was referring to his karting experience as an example of the benefits of engine mounted exhaust components. Your comment about the uni-planar aspect of the exhaust mounting has got me thinking... Why do we need rubber mounts for the collector anyway? Consider the following: Stainless Steel expands by approximately 0.000009 inch per inch of length for every oF of temperature rise. The distance from the rear header studs to the collector mount (straight line distance not path lenght of header) is what, about 20"? The WORST case (average for length of header) header temperature increase from ambient is what, about 600oF (like when stuck in traffic). So let's do the math. 0.000009 IN/IN/oF * 20 IN * 600oF = 0.11 IN Of course the aluminum engine expands too, but not until it heats up; the header heats up VERY quickly. Just a simple calculation to show that vibration is not the only consideration . Blake | ||
| Blake |
Bob: The basic procedure as I recall is to leave the collector-to-can joint loose until everyting else is torqued down. The theory is to leave that joint as stress free as possible to avoid putting any of the hangers or compnents in a bind. 1. Loosely/lightly snug the nuts on the header studs to hold the header in place. 2. Carefully mount muffler, tighten it in place starting at the aft hanger, the collector/muffler joint should remain loose and stress free. 3. Torque the nuts on the header studs. It is sometimes beneficial to gradually torque the header nuts, alternating between the front and back heads to keep the collector joint stress free. A little wiggling to help things seat properly sometimes helps too. 4. Lastly after all else is torqued and tight, torque the collector/muffler clamp ensuring that there is no binding or misalignment at the joint. If binding exists, adjust the components accordingly and start the entire procedure over. This was originally post, I think, by Hans? He was responding to someone's complaints of excessive vibration at the footpegs. His procedure solved the problem and makes real good sense. Am I right? Was that you Hans? Blake (wishinhiscollectorjointwasstressfree) | ||
| S2carl |
I'll add that it is a good thing to recheck the torque on the header nuts on the head studs for at least 5-6 rides (heat/cool cycles) after installation. I noticed that it took about 5-6 cycles for the header to properly seat and for the nuts to hold the proper torque whan I reinstalled the header on the S2. carl |
