| Author | Message | ||
     Jhanz |
On a new (06)XB9SX (60 Miles) what might be the cause of a VERY loud, gear-type whine, when decelerating at slow speeds. I've ridden new XB's before and the gear whine is not nearly as bad. It only really occurs at slow speeds. Also, it's very hard to find neutral. Could an overfilled primary cause this? Primary chain adjustment? Anyone have any insights? Thanks! | ||
| Sokota |
Sounds like primary chain is way to tight. Check it out right away | ||
| Jhanz |
By the way, it turned out that the primary chain was in fact, WAY WAY WAY, too tight. I'll never understand how someone can set a bike up and be that far off from spec. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Good thing you caught that quick. That measurement is a little subjective but that sound like a dealer prep issue that should have been caught. The experience here is to find the A little loose is way better than too tight as the chain gets tighter warmed up. A little more than that and the chain will start slapping the case and you'll hear that right away. The holy trilogy of solutions for clutch and shifting problems on Buells is to (1) adjust the primary chain, (2) adjust the clutch adjusting screw, and then, (3), adjust the clutch lever freeplay. If those are not in harmony now, once you get them right you'll just want to ride, and ride, and ride... Jack (Message edited by jackbequick on April 02, 2007) (Message edited by blake on April 02, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
Be sure to have that documented and acknowledged by the dealership. It is not improbable that your bike may suffer problems as a result of the chain being too tight. Related bearing failures and chain problems would be areas of concern. | ||
| Blake |
Jack, I edited your post above. If you don't agree, please let me know. | ||
| Jackbequick |
I'm mortified! Thanks for spotting that. Jack | ||
| Blake |
I've made plenty of similar accidental mis-statements myself. The experts suspect that I have an intermittent short circuit between my chair and the keyboard.  | ||
| Shaiss |
Hey guys, I have this same issue. How hard is it to losen the primary chain yourself? Can anyone give a bit of a walkthroug? Socal Harley deals are the worst! Thanks, Shai | ||
| Reepicheep |
Two torx bolts, and a big nut, and an allen wrench, and a little measuring. It's not a hard job, and it's all detailed in the factory service manual (which it sounds like you may need anyway if you have issues with your dealer)... If you can scare up the online manual for the 96 S1 (or whichever was published), I doubt it has changed much. | ||
| Shaiss |
Yeah, I have the manual, I'm just not much of a gearhead. Do you need to remove the primary cover, or just the inspection cover? | ||
| Jayvee |
Inspection Cover, that's what it's for, "inspecting" the primary drive, i.e. check it's tension (as you adjust it.) You know, I tend to whine when decelerating, myself... | ||
| Blake |
Here's the primary chain adjustment procedure. This shows the old tube frame configuration, but the procedure and specifications remain unchanged for the XBikes.The service manual tells you how to adjust the primary chain. The procedure remains unchanged for over a decade now. Some advise using a looser range, 5/8" to 3/4" to be sure to avoid a too-tight condition, which is harmful to the drivetrain and its bearings. The main thing is to rotate the chain through its entire range of travel around the sprockets and to be sure to find the tightest spot in its travel and adjust it there on the loose side of the specs rather than the tight side. The chain will become tighter as the engine warms; this due to the fact that when heated, aluminum (engine/tranny cases) expand at twice the rate as steel (sprockets and chain), thus the distance between the sprockets increases more than the chain length. Thus when cold the chain needs to be somewhat loose. You can rotate the chain through its travel by shifting the transmission into 5th gear then walking the bike forward and letting out the clutch to bump the chain a couple to four inches at a time. It helps to mark each link that is visible when you measure the chain free play. A tiny bit of contrasting grease pencil or crayon rubbed into the side of the visible chain link works well for that. Once you find the tightest spot, that is where you will adjust the chain tension (free play). Another approach is to very quickly bump the starter button with the bike in neutral, but that can spin the chain around more than you'd like and seems kind of harsh on the drivetrain to me. So the best approach in my view is to use the clutch with the bike in 5th gear, walk it forward and let out the clutch to bump the chain a little at a time. Once you've found the tight spot and adjusted the free-play, be sure to verify that the primary chain free-play remains in spec after you've adjusted and retightened/retorqued the tensioner bolt/nut. The bolt has a receptacle for an allen head wrench to secure it from rotating while you to tighten the nut. (Message edited by blake on April 05, 2007) | ||
| Shaiss |
I still dont understand how you find the tightest spot. Is it just rotating, mesuring every few inchs on the chain, and then the spot that you find has the least travel, is the "tightest spot"? Then you adjust based on that? Right? Sorry, I'm a complete nerd not a gearhead | ||
| Shaiss |
I should and that my buell does this same noise intermittently. I find that when the clutch is properly adjust no noise. But it will quickly unadjust. So I'm sure my chains on too tight. Anyone care to post an instructional video? I'm gonna adjust my chain tonight. so thanks to all! | ||
| Jackbequick |
You are looking at how far you can lift the chain by pushing it up with your finger. The tightest spot will have the least lift. If you can use the plugs out/5th gear/turn the wheel method, you can lift on the chain with a piece of dowel or toothbrush handle in one hand as you turn the wheel with the other. If you are a really devil may care person, you could even use your finger. If you can't get the rear wheel up on stands and/or don't want to pull the plugs, simply move the bike forward (in 5th, ignition off) a few inches at a time and keep checking. A little bump, bump, bump, against compression will do it. When you find a place that is tighter, wipe the side plate on the chain with a rag and put a dot on it with a permanent ink Sharpie. After your dots start coming back around pick the one you think seems tightest, wipe the spot off with a rag with some parts or carb cleaner on it. Then put a big "X" on that side plate and you'll be able to find the tight spot quickly the next time. The chain will not actually sag much or any so in measuring the total deflection you really only need to measure how much higher you can push it up. In theory (and practice) it will move the same distance up and as it would move down. So if you are shooting for the time honored BadWeb spec of 5/8"-3/4" total deflection, you want it to push it up half of that or 5/16"-3/8". By coincidence, the sideplates on that chain (the flat metal dog bone shaped pieces) are 3/8" high at their widest point as you see them through the cover. So if you hold a small screwdriver or piece of wire even with the top of a side place, then put your finger under the chain and push up until it starts to hurt a little, if your marker is even with the bottom of the sideplate you have 3/8" of deflection. But push up hard, that is important. You should feel some discomfort, grimace a little, maybe even feel some real pain. The service manual calls for an adjustment of 3/8" (3/16" up, 3/16" down) and that is simply too tight. Time and experience has proven that over and over again. If you get all done and have the chain too loose, it will slap the inside of the primary cover. You'll hear it most as you slow nearly to a stop or as you stop. You'll also hear it occasionally with the bike in neutral, clutch lever out, when at a stop. Sounds sort of like marbles being dropped in a bucket. If that happens, you can loosen the locking nut on that adjuster and tighten the adjuster (screw it up into the case) about 1/8th of a turn or so. Lock the nut gently and start it up to test that, maybe even ride it slowly a little. The called for torque spec on that adjuster locking nut is a little too high, people have stripped the threads in the cover trying to meet the spec. Just snug it down nicely but don't let the size of the nut trick you into stripping the adjusting bolt threads. You are not going to believe how happy you'll be with the bike and yourself after all this is behind you. Its like the bike loves you more, *runs better* and *wants* to be ridden. Buells have karma, maybe even souls. They appreciate having a good owner. Jack | ||
| Shaiss |
Thanks Jack! That really helps. I'll post how it goes tonight. | ||
| Shaiss |
Ok, went home, let the bike sit for an hour or so and the chain was still hot, so I'm gonna do it Sunday. I did take off the inspection cover and got a bit confused. As your feeling the chain and turning the wheel the chain is pulled and feels tight. But let go of the wheel and the chain becomes fairly loose. My understanding is that your supposed to adjust it as your turning looking for that tight spot. Right? | ||
| Sparky |
No, it's turn. Stop turning. Check. Turn. Stop turning. Check. Repeat until the entire chain is checked. Then do the entire chain again to verify you have found the tightest spot, if you want to be sure that you did a good job the first time. How tight did it feel when it was hot? Was there less than 3/8" at any spot? | ||
| Shaiss |
didnt get to measuring it. I'll do it sunday when its cold. Just curious, if you pull the battery, do you still need to pull the spark plugs? If theres no power, they shouldnt spark | ||
| Jackbequick |
If you are going to move the bike with it in gear to turn the chain, take the key out of the ignition, and for absolute safety, do not put your finger in the hole while you are pushing it to move the chain. With that, you can leave the battery in place, it will not start by accident. Taking the plugs out is so you do not have to overcome the compression in the cylinder as you move the bike (or turn the rear wheel). As you work against the compression moving the bike, it will slowly bleed down and let the bike move. Getting at the plugs to get them out an XB is harder than it is on a tuber so I'd leave them in. It will be easy enough if you just sort of keep track of the distance and move the bike just 2-3 inches at a time. Jack | ||
| Jhanz |
I wanted to add something that may or may not have been addressed in the past (probably has), mainly because I have experienced my primary chain being over-tightened more than once and it seems to be a fairly common problem. According to the 06' Lightning manual, it shows the primary free-play measurement as up and down measurement, however, it does not tell you which point on the chain one is to use as a reference point. In other words, based on what the manual says, or at least what I take from it, the free-play measurement is the total of upward movement + downward movement. That said, it also does not tell you if the thickness of the chain from top to bottom (side-plate), is included in that measurement. My interpretation of what the manual says is: Basically, push chain down, measure from the bottom edge of chain at lowest point; push chain up, measure from top edge of chain at highest point. Once again, if this is the method, the thickness of chain IS included in the measurement, which wouldn't really be measuring free-play. Would it? That would only be achieved if one point on the chain (ex. bottom edge of side-plate) were used as the reference point on chain. With this method, when pushing up, the thickness of the chain would be "outside" of the measurement window - according to manual - giving a true measurement of free-play. Making sense? The manual only shows the "window" of free-play that is being measured, which would lead me to believe that the thickness of the chain (side-plate) IS in fact included "within" the window of measurement. Is that the case? If so, I can see where it could easily be misinterpreted, especially by a tech who really does not care, hence the seeming frequency of overtightened primary chains. Could this also have something to do with why there have been issues with primary sprockets coming loose? Any insights? | ||
| Gotj |
Jhanz, By Jove, I think you've got something there! My common sense reading of free play is the same as yours, from a common point on the chain, not including the width of the chain. I did not even conceive of the reading you made of the manual's instructions. Maybe that's the reason the non-shop manual BadWeb free play spec is 5/8-3/4". That would be about the manual spec of 3/8-1/2" plus the chain width I believe. | ||
| Jhanz |
Ah, but the question is: Does the 5/8 - 3/4 measurement recommended here include the width of the side-plate? | ||
| Gotj |
Ah, but the other question is whether the FSM 3/8-1/2" spec includes the side plate. Neither one specifies that detail (to my knowledge). My inference is that the FSM assumes (always a bad idea) that the user knows how to properly measure free play (from a common point)and does not include the side plate. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Neither measurement "includes" the side plate. Pick a point on the chain (top, bottom, a rivet, etc.) and see how far up that point goes and how far down that point goes. The sum of the two the total deflection. I may have induced some confusion here by mentioning that the sideplates are 3/8" high, I just found that a convenient point of reference for measuring. Also, when I was checking it, I just measured the travel upward and assumed the down travel would be about the same. Since I was only checking for half of the travel (5/16"-3/8") the height of the sideplate was a easy reference to use. My initial problem in getting the chain set right was because I was not pushing up on the chain hard enough so the chain was too loose and slapping inside the primary. One of the regulars mentioned pushing hard, I did that, and after that the 3/8" up thing worked perfect. Jack | ||
| Shaiss |
Ok, I finally got around to doing this last night. Its much better adjusted to the 3/4 deflection, BUT, it still whines a bit on slow down. I was thinking to just loosen the tension screw a bit. But here's my delima: I set the tension screw to the 3/4 place, and using an open end wrench tighted the lock nut till it was tight all while holding the tension screw in place with an allen key. Once tight I removed the allen key and the wrench and got out my torque ratchet set to 24ft/lbs. The problem is that my toque ratchet and socket obviously dont allow any way to ensure the tension screw stays in place. So I think when I tourqued the locknut, I turned the tension screw a bit tighter. Therefore the slight wine. So how do I get the right tourqe while ensuring the tension screw doesnt move? I was told I needed to buy a open end torque ratchet, but I can't justify spending $350 http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/seriesma ster.asp?series_id=Stahlwille+Torque+Wrenches+and+ Inserts Please help???? and thank you! | ||
| Shaiss |
wanted to add: Is it possible that the tension screw position is perfect since deflection is 3/4 and all I need to do is adjust the clutch and lever and that will releve the slight whine? | ||
| Jackbequick |
You can use a crowfoot open end on that. It will make the torque wrench a little bit longer (1 inch or so) but you can calculate the effect. Here is a good calculator: http://www.norbar.com/torquewrenchextensioncalcula tor.php Don't try to get that lock nut up to the specified value (I forget the numbers), several people have had the adjusting screw strip the threads out of the primary cover doing that. Don't even shoot for the lower number to be on the safe side. Stay on the low side and put a drop of blue Loctite on the screw if you are worried about it. Backing that off 1/4 turn at a time until you think you have it right is easy. If you go too far you'll hear the chain hitting the inside of the primary cover but it won't be hitting hard enough to cause any damage if you go slowly. Jack | ||
| Sparky |
Get yourself a crowfoot socket wrench, a type of open-end wrench with socket that fits your torque wrench, in the size of the wrench that fits the lock nut. Try Sears or most any hardware store and save that $350 (for track days). | ||
| Shaiss |
Thank Jack, I'll try that tonight! | ||
| Reepicheep |
While I am generally very careful about following the torque specs, particularly with "motion" related bits, I just use the German torque spec for that bolt... Guddentite. So far, so good (and "so far" is probably pushing more then 40k Buell miles now). Crow's foot is not a bad idea either though... | ||
| Shaiss |
I just dont understand why Buell would bother going through figuring out the torque spec if it wasnt neccasary or would cause problems. I'm no genius, but my guess is that torque related issues are because of people torquing wrong in one way or another. I've taken off and removed that lock nut, everytime torquing it right about 6 times this week and no issues yet. I say its human error, but I might be wrong so please no one take offence. | ||
| Jackbequick |
A torque spec is based on several things, the size and pitch of the thread, the thickness of the material, the holding or sealing forces required, etc. But they don't always turn out to be right in practice. And even engineers make errors. One of the variables on that screw stripping or not stripping is the quality of the material in that spot on any given primary cover. Castings like that can vary from one to another. And after repeated tightenings, things can change. If you've been torquing that to the spec and getting away with it that's fine. I torqued mine to spec the first time or two. I am about as anal as anyone gets on details and "doing it right". But sometimes you get a bad feeling in the back of your head as you're waiting for the torque wrench to click and a little voice says "quit now". I started hearing that voice after reading about the stripped ones and started settling for less than the called for spec. You'll find some things in the KV and in the advice given here that varies from what the service manual says. I'd generally go with the advice given here as it is usually good advice and stuff learned the hard way. I read the entire KV after I found this place. It was my first Buell, first H-D engined bike, and the KV was simply a gold mine of good info. There was so many things that that I did not have to learn the hard way... Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
And for clarity, the tuber primary stripping was generally the derby cover. Between those torx head screws and the fact that if you did not remove them gradually in a circle, it was easy to get that cover bound up and strip a head. And even if you didn't, there were not that many threads in that soft aluminum, and it was easy to strip them on that end as well. I never had my primary tensioner be loose when I went for my regular adjustments, it always held. Never felt like it was getting close to stripping. Wouldn't blame anyone for wanting the right tool to be sure they had it right either! (Message edited by reepicheep on April 13, 2007) |
