| Author | Message | ||
     Sportyeric |
Rippin. At risk of being insulting, when did you change spark plugs last? I've been accepting that my old motor was on the verge of expiring of old age and abuse, vibrating like crazy while I picture ovalized conrod ends, etc. I threw in a new set of plugs while doing my rocker box repair and it now feels like its rubber mounted! I hate to return to the Bad Web on such a stupid post but WTF. | ||
| Al_Lighton |
Did a bunch of work in my primary/transmission on my 98S1W..new 2nd gear ratios (2000 spec), Baker XL 5 smooth shift kit, new starter clutch assy, and a new primary chain adjuster. The primary adjuster was the old style one, hadn't broken yet but was pretty worn for 12,500 miles. The starter clutch was probably not necessary, the grinding problem had pretty much gone away with the new battery. But I'd already bought it and the other had gotten beat up pretty good if the sounds were any indication. The new 2nd gear set feels good. It wasn't horrible before, but the 2nd to 3rd shift is more natural now, very smooth with the new baker kit. The Baker kit is a good improvement, but isn't perfect. Shifting force is definitely lighter and snickier, but one still has to shift with authority and with good technique or you may get some grinding and/or in-between gears. I like it overall. The Baker kit didn't come with instructions, the shift drum had a less than perfect surface finish (some light pitting), and I have some reservations about their aluminum detent plate, might not wear as good as the stockers. But the shifting performance is better than stock to be sure. If you put one in, don't follow the manual blindly. You don't need to remove front belt drive pully to remove the transmission, but the manual said to remove it. You also don't need to remove the countershaft torx bolt that they would have you remove. Everything else is very straghtforward. Unless of course you put the whole thing all the way back together and realize that you didn't put the ball bearing on the end of the spring in the starter clutch assy....DOH!!!! Al | ||
| Orion |
Al: Was there any change in the neutral-to-first "klunk"?? J.D. | ||
| Al_Lighton |
J.D., Mine isn't particularly klunky to begin with, but I don't think it changes the nature of the klunk. The smooth shift kit consists of a new shift drum with a new detent plate and lighter indexing spring. The detent plate is more like the older HD plate in lobe size, but with slightly more defined lobe apexes as on the newer HD plate. Hard to tell the differences in the shift drum fork locating grooves, but I'm sure there are some geometry differences there as well. The gears are all the stock ones, so the "dogs" (or whatever they're called on the sides of the gears) aren't changed by the kit. Bottom line: if you shift with authority, the feel is better. I liken the kit to installing a hair trigger on a gun. A novice wouldn't want one, but someone that already has good technique and wants to make that technique a little easier to perform would benefit. For shifting, I define good technique as three things: timing with the clutch activation/release, a quick unambiguous application of pressure to the shifter, and proper follow thru (i.e. not releasing the pressure on the shifter until AFTER the engagements have all occurred). If your technique is good, the shifts will be easier. If you shift lazy, the lighter pressure required makes it easier to be even lazier and more grinding noises could be likely. I like it overall. BTW, I do think finding neutral is MUCH easier with it, especially when stopped. Al | ||
| Spike |
Well, I finally got around to changing my primary chain tensioner today. Pictures are up here. Thanks to all who offered suggestions and help. The project went smoothly with the exception of snapping the end of the clutch cable housing. Not a bad way to spend an afternoon, and certainly better than leaving the bike at a dealer for a week. Spike '99 M2 | ||
| Bullitt |
Any of ya'll know how to determine whether or not your scoot has the updated primary tensioner, short of taking it apart and inspecting? Is there a VIN or production date cutoff? | ||
| Bcmike |
Weather cleared so I finally took the Buell to the dealer to have the excessive vibration problem checked. (It wasn't a motor mount, afterall.) The mechanic recognized the problem right away. The crankshaft sprocket nut had loosened off. Not enough to make noise, just cause the vibration. Threw me the keys for a 01 XL and said call back later. He pulled the primary cover, inspected everything, retorqued the nut and pronounced all is ok.(?) Said if was any worse, It would have required a new crankshaft and probably Buell would of replaced the entire engine under warranty. He did just that recently, to a 00 M2 with the same problem. It was clunking badly by the time that owner brought it in. So beware of an unusual vibration, get it checked quickly. Once you hear noise, it could be too late. (A real bummer if off warranty) Pissoff is, my bike still vibrates worse than before, very buzzy over 3,000 especially when cold. 01 M2,18,000km | ||
| Stevem123 |
Hey BcMike, That sounds like a major problem waiting to bite you in the butt! Vibration above 3,000 RPM isn't normal in my experience. My 01S3T is smooth as silk at that point other than the usual valve-train noise. In my way of thinking, if the crank sprocket came loose enough to cause vibration, then surely the fitment of the sprocket to the crank would have been loosened up a bit, allowing the sprocket to be ever so slightly off-center and thus could make the crankshaft and or sprocket out of round in a very short time. Bottom line is that the harmonic vibrations caused by this could result in a catastrophic failure of the crankshaft and or the sprocket. The only way I can think of how to check for sure is to remove the cover, and sparkplugs. then use a dial indicator to measure runout and roundness of the sprocket while rotating the engine with the starter. If you get more than 0.0005 (rough guess) with either measurement I would seriously consider taking it back and demanding a fix. This is the kind of problem that can take a long time before it breaks and of course by then you are out of warranty so its out of pocket to buy a new engine...OUCH! I bet some would probably agree but this is just my .02. What do you think guys/girls? | ||
| Blake |
I STRONGLY agree! | ||
| Bcmike |
Bummer....thats what i was afraid of. It was ultra smooth before. So must still be a problem as you say. Guess I'll take it back and leave it with them. If the crankshaft is damaged, should I push for a new engine or just a replacement crank? Has this happened to others recently? Like I said, this happened to a local guy with a 00 M2. He rode it way to long and the dealer did replace the engine. How can this be prevented from reocurring? It was torqued at the factory to 210 lb.ft. and red loctite was used but still came loose??? The consequences are very serious and expensive if the crank gets screwed so quickly and easily. I only rode it home, a few miles and parked it until could get to the dealer after I noticed the vibration. This sux! | ||
| Anon_R |
Bcmike I sure would want to be sure my dealer is/was aware of service bulletin B-043 | ||
| Stevem123 |
Blake, Thanks for confirming my post on this subject. BcMike, Sorry for being the bearer of bad news but I felt better by letting you know what could possibly happen. I for one would be really bummed out if this happened to my bike as I use it daily for my primary means of transportation and hate to think how much down time would be involved. I would personnaly do the measurments myself and document the results by posting the results here in order to protect myself just in case your dealer trys to needle his way out of this one. Good Luck! | ||
| Bcmike |
I did a search on the SB you mentioned. Came up with this by Hoser.... >>Hoser Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 11:28 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob: Your engine sprocket nut may be loose , the primary cover has to come off to check this. I have seen this happen to a few bikes and can damage the splines on the crank. While you are in there , update the tensioner shoe to the latest part. All: A service bulletin has been released about engine sprocket nuts backing off ( finally !?!? ) , apparently ? a number of engines were assembled with an incorrect nut , causing torque reading that may allow the nut to loosen !. Affected models are late 2000 and early 2001 twins and singles. The bulletin is B-043. What bothers me is this does not address my concern about the possibility of the engine sprocket nut backing off on ANY ! model year , " correct " nut or not ! Jeff >>>> I'll bring it to the attention of the dealer, thanks to all. | ||
| Bcmike |
Steve, I'll do that. I have a dial indicater and a well equipped shop. Thanks for the advice, I'll post what I find. (0.0005" aint much) | ||
| Stevem123 |
Bcmike, I just went through the service manual and it seems they allow up to .005" end play (this is an allowance for side to side drift of the crankshaft) and .002" runout of the shaft at the flywheel end. I guess my original guess was way off base but these machines are still mostly handmade and arent held to rigid tolerences that I would expect. | ||
| Bcmike |
Thanks Steve, I plan to go thru the service manual tomorrow and pull the primary cover for a look see. I'll be in touch. I got to admit, its disappointing. I thought Buell finally had the quality control level up to standard for 2001 models. So far the bike has been excellent, as reliable as any Metric. Now to find out the 'wrong nut' was installed in such a critical area....sheesh... 01M2...18,000km | ||
| Bcmike |
Steve and all, I checked the runout at the crankshaft. Shows .005" (5 thou) If .002 is max allowed, its over. I took the reading at the protruding end of the shaft beyond the sprocket nut with a dial indicator. Could this be enough to cause the vibration?? Its much worse when cold, the mirrors are trying to break off much like a sportster... Smoothes out to almost normal when fully warmed up. But still buzzy at the footpegs, unlike before was very smooth as is the norm. Also, was very surprised to see the wear marks on the inside of the primary cover from the chain rubbing. I was always anal about primary chain adjustment and yet it still happened. The adjuster shoe is grooved about 1/32". Is that acceptable? I suspect it is the new improved adjuster seeing the bike is a 01 model. I guess its impossible to tell by looking if the sprocket nut is incorrect as per B-043 service bulletin. Its tight as of the visit to the dealer. | ||
| Stevem123 |
Bcmike, According the manual the .002" tolerance is the max service wear limit which means that for a practically new engine you should see much less. Now think of this: assume that the bearing in the case where the shaft protrudes through is now acting as a pivot point for a slightly bent crankshaft. That would mean that if the outer end of the shaft is moving about its rotational center by .005" in 360 degrees of rotation then the middle of the crankshaft would be doing about the same, thus the counter weight of the shaft is moving at least part of that distance in an opposing direction as compared to the outer end of the shaft. That is a lot of unbalanced weight which would account for the vibration. I know of a method for testing vibration using an accelerometer as a sensing device and a data aquisition software to graph the results in real time to do the analysis. A peak or spike that has a period equal to the RPM would a definite giveaway of the bent crank. Well sorry for the long rant. If I had the equip I'd do it for you and measure a good engine for comparison but unfortunatly the sensor alone is about 2 grand and way more than I can afford for just playing around with. Aah maybe someday. Good luck! HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! | ||
| Hoser |
BCmike: Vibrates more when it's cold ?? , and smoothes out to almost normal when it's fully warmed up ? , .......... like when the isolators warm up ? . Isolators are quite stiff when cold and transfer more vibration to the frame and rider , as they warm up they become much more complient , this is more noticable in our climate ( Canada ). When measuring shaft runout its better to take your measurement close to the flywheel , as in , the further out you measure , the worse the runout will seem leading you to beleive your flywheels are toast when they may not be . I have taken brand new flywheels out of the box , measured runout and found them to be at or beyond the service limit , depending on where I set up the dial guage . H.D. wants us to measure the runout close to the flywheel in the area where the bearings run , .002" or less here is what the factory recommends. When possible it is desirable to have less than that of course but it may not happen that way due to varying circumstances , like , it could be a warranty job , flat rate or the Tech having lower standards / skill level. Bulletin B-043 , .......... some one here must have this saved , I will see what I can do , but it does have an illustration of the nut in question and an incorrect part can be identified . J.D.H. | ||
| Hoser |
BCmike: I forgot to mention , both my Buells did that "vibrates when cold" thing in the cold weather , I fixed it by putting a furnace in my garage. Jeff | ||
| Hoser |
Mike: You got mail Jeff | ||
| Bcmike |
Steve, I appreciate the info, it ain't a rant. I'm calling the Dealer tomorrow to see if he knows about the service bulletin. Happy New Year to you too! We had our Polar Bear Ride today. Rained like a monsoon here on the coast, but I was dry in the car.... the Buell has no primary cover at this time... Hoser (Jeff), I wish it was as simple as cold stiff isolators. But it was fine in early Dec cold weather. And it rarely gets down to freezing here on Vancouver Island. Just started the big shake recently, even at 45 degrees. Maybe there's two problems, the crank vibes amplified by stiff mounts, or just a bad mount, I don't know... I got the SB you sent, thanks. The bike has the right engine sprocket nut, but the dealer could have changed it last week. It was loose when he pulled the cover. I'll find out tomorrow. Interested in seeing what they say when I tell him it is still shaking like an old rigid shovel. No kidding, I let go of the handlebars at 3,000 rpm when still warming up, and the grips start oscillating like a tuning fork, I thought the mirrors would snap off.... Someone suggested spark plugs. I tried a new set, no difference. Other than the shake, it runs fine, same power as before. | ||
| Blake |
Mike: Is your primary chain properly adjusted? Too tight or too loose can cause bad vibes. | ||
| Bcmike |
Yes Blake, Primary chain was adjusted to spec. I changed the Sportrans fluid only 1 k miles ago. All was fine then. Also the dealers mechanic had the primary cover off last week, when he tightened the sprocket nut. I would hope he checked the adjustment. Still shook about the same afterward. I'm about to reinstall the primary cover. Questions....the SM instructs to loosen the chain tensioner before removing the primary cover (probably to gain clearance from the chain hanging in the grooved shoe). I didn't, but just gently rocked it off. Can the primary cover be reinstalled without loosening the adjuster? Or will it hang up on the chain? Can I support the chain with a hooked wire until it slides over the shoe? I know, its probably just as easy to loosen off the adjuster, But wonder if its necessary. | ||
| Pjmule |
My 2000 M2 with 12,400 miles on it has started pukeing out of the vent tube, it doesn't do all the time, just every now and then.I'm guessing that the crankshaft seal is the culprit but not really sure.Is there any sure way to determine what it could be? And if it is the seal, do you need any special tools to replace it?Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Pat Mullaney | ||
| Ccryder |
PJ: It is not too bad of a job but the clutch pack nut and crankshaft nut are high torque items. You need the sockets for both of them plus a means to lock the clutch pack and primary sprocket together. Of course H-D makes a tool, but one can be fabricated without too much difficulty. The S-M shoes what this looks like. THe new primary case crankshaft seal is the standard seal now. Neil S. | ||
| Jmartz |
Pj: Ride over to my house this weekend and I'll lend you the tools you need. Bring a seal, call... Jose 404 875-1006 | ||
| Pjmule |
Jose, It's 28 degrees outside! thanks for the offer though. I have tools here at home, just didn,t know if I needed a puller for the crank sprocket or clutch. Neil,I saw the sprocket locking link in my service manual,it does look like it would be pretty easy to make one. Thanks for the info. Pat Mullaney | ||
| Jmartz |
Pat: You will also need the primary cover gasket, shift shaft seal and oil. As for tools a piece of stepped nylon is the "special" tool I got from Jim's. You can tap-tap the seal but I have the special sprocket shaft bearing/seal installation tool. The clutch basket nut is reverse thread and is flat and thin. You need to mutilate a socket with a grinder and to eliminate the chamfer and make flat or you run the risk of rounding the nut. | ||
| Bcmike |
As you know, the dealer recently retightened the engine sprocket nut but the bike still vibrates. I removed the primary cover for a look. If I grab the clutch/ring gear sprocket, I can rock it back and forth about one quarter inch. Although the clutch drum doesn't move. Does this mean the clutch nut has also come loose? Did the mechanic miss this when he was in there? I read it should be at 70 ft lbs. Hopefully this is the cause of vibration. Could any parts be damaged with this assembly being loose? 01 M2 |
