| Author | Message | ||
     Spacecapsule1 |
Hey, So, I did the pcv line re-route to help clean up intake and the infamous oil drip problem. Now, I have oil dripping from my breather filter under the seat. It drips onto the wheel cover, the swingarm and everything in between. My questions are: 1) Why does oil drip from the pcv line 2) How much is too much? 3) how do you know if you have a more serious problem? Thanks, Jason | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
1) The oil is oil vapor that collects inside the engine from all the parts slinging oil around and blows out the crankcase breather. The crankcase breather is there because the engine builds up pressure and has to let it out somewhere. 2 & 3) Engines will vary on how much oil comes out the breather. Some engines will 'blow by' very little, some alot depending on how close everything got at the factory. If your rings are bad (low compression) a lot more oil will blow out the breather. A compression test will let you know if thats the case. Using the incorrect grade of oil (too thin) will increase 'blow by'. Overfilling the oil will also increase oil consumption. How much is too much is debatable. It really depends on the condition of the engine. Just because there is a lot (relative term) doesnt mean you need a rebuild. When I put on a new top end on the Blast, oil consumption decreased to almost zero! But tolerances were paid much closer attention to than at the factory. My other Blast blew out so much oil I reconnected the PCV to the airbox because I was tired of the mess (but didnt point it directly into the carb). The bike still runs good with good compression. (Message edited by gearheaderiko on March 01, 2007) | ||
| Slowhand96 |
Huh? "Using the incorrect grade of oil (too thin) will increase 'blow by'." If you are talking about oil consumption then I'm not sure about that. I believe the opposite is true. Thicker oil is more apt to cling to the cylinder walls and get burned off. "Blow by" isn't oil, (per se, some vaporization maybe) it's exhaust gas that seeped past the rings. Thicker oil may slow down "blow by" somewhat but mostly it is a result of loose rings or very high cylinder pressures. (straining the motor) I have seen incorrect breather or PCV baffling that actually allowed crankcase pressurizing to push oil out. The little plastic doohicky that Harley used as a breather baffle in the rocker box of my 2000 RK was cracked and installed upside down. This allowed any oil that pooled on that side of the head to be sucked up into my air cleaner and eventually drip onto my pant leg / boot and mess up all my shiny chrome bits... LOL.. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
"Using the incorrect grade of oil (too thin) will increase 'blow by'.""If you are talking about oil consumption then I'm not sure about that. I believe the opposite is true."Huh?! thicker oil increasing blow by? If that were true, adding thicker oil to an oil burning engine would burn more oil (definitely not true). Most Harley products (especially older) go through oil faster the thinner it gets, a lot of it coming out the breather! Maybe I tried over simplifying everything. Blow by will increase the amount of oil coming out the breather/PCV line. If the rings made a perfect seal then the crankcase pressure would only come from the piston moving down the bore (causing an opposite 'compression' stroke). If the rings are bad, then blow by will be increased, forcing more out the PCV line (along with the oil vapor filling the crankcase). If you ever want to see how much pressure and oil vapor is in the crankcase, try running the engine with the timing plug out! A good point about the rocker box scenario. If oil is allowed to pool there (due to some malfunction) it will certainly increase the oil coming out the breather. (Message edited by gearheaderiko on March 01, 2007) | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Thanks for your replies. Here's my next round of questions: 1) The "stuff" that comes out of the pcv line is oil vapor or exhaust gas that leaked past the rings, or both? 2) How does the pressure get to the cylinder head? I suppose there's a passage of some kind that allows it to escape. 3) Why don't cars drip oil everywhere from the pcv system? I've seem them with nothing more than a line straight out of the crankcase, but they don't seem to be venting oil like my bike does. Is there a way to stop all the oil other than collecting it? Even then, it still gets all over from "the mist". I went for an hour long ride, 50-60mph average. Came home, oil dripping from the breather filter, and getting everywhere. Seems like too much to me. So the first step in checking things out would be a good ol' compression check? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
1) Ideally its just oil vapor, but it not being a perfect world it may have some exhaust gas, oil and fuel that leaked past the rings. 2) Yes there is a passage that runs up from the crankcase through the cylinder into the head. 3) Cars have the same (generally speaking) pcv line into the air cleaner. On older cars the PCV breather element gets very dirty and oily and needs to be changed regularly (though no one ever did). Newer cars have tighter tolerances which decreases a lot of the oil consumption.I dont believe there is a way to stopall the oil, but HD has done quite a lot in recent years to refine the breather system (less so on the Blast). Most engine manufacturers have come quite a long way from just running a simple line into the air cleaner. The EPA doesnt take kindly to oil (burnt or otherwise) getting out into our air!Re do the top end of your bike paying closer attention to tolerances and quality of parts and your oil consumption will go way down. Yes, check your compression along with your oil level and quality/weight of oil. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Oil level is just above the tip of the dipstick, whatever the dealer put in. I don't know. What compression reading should I be getting? | ||
| Swampy |
Compression, 125 psi. should be enough. Also, it takes a while for the Blast to get fully broken in. 4000 miles or so, so don't start worrying until 5000 miles. I seems to be the same way if you look on the Ulysses board. Always check the oil level hot, after you get done riding, there is a whole section on checking oil level in the Thumper Knowledge Vault. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Thanks for the info. My bike has 6000 miles on it. | ||
| Swampy |
Spacecapsule1, I see you live in South Carolina, I forgot to tell you "You suck!" LOL! I'm just going stircrazy, cabin fever, up here in the Northern Siberian wasteland. I am the last defence between Greater America and the invading Canadians! If it wasn't for us you would all be speaking with a canadian accent. What kind of oil are you running? May I make a suggestion? 20W-50 Synthetic, in everything, engine and primary. Route your crankcase vent tube to the atmosphere, say, to where your swing arm is, or build a catchcan. This would be a small vented container with which to catch the emmisions from your vent hose. There are a ton of ideas in the Knowledge Vault about crankcase venting, any of which will work, depending on where you want the goo to end up. If yours is really spewing, maybe run a vent tube to within inches of the ground. And to help with the break in process you need to run the crap out of it! | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Hahahaha! Well I guess I could say the southern folks are the defensive line between us and our South American invaders, but.... looks like a losing battle. haha. The coldest its been here so far this winter is the mid 20's (at night). Today was in the upper 50's. I really have no idea what oil is in the bike. Whatever the dealer put in it. I already routed the pcv line out of the airbox. I have it vented to under the seat, capped with a breather filter. I didn't realize it would still puke so much oil, so I may move it somewhere else. I do run the crap out of it. Really, I do. I've put 6000 miles on in the 6 months I've owned it. That might not be much for others, but it's all I can make time for. I'll do the compression test next week and let you guys know what I find. The dealer is supposed to come get the bike next week as well to fix the rocker/base gaskets leaks for the second time. We'll see how that goes. Thanks everyone for your replies, Jason | ||
| Swampy |
Make sure the rocker box gaskets are the metal ones, the paper ones start leaking about 1500 miles. Also the metal ones have to be installed with the writing facing up. Have the oil changed, or learn to do it yourself, its very easy to do. On the vent hose the dealer probably won't help you because its not an EPA approved thing to do. So I would either run it into a catch can or to the ground. You reall might just have an abnormal amount of moisture mixed in with the oil making it look larger than what it is. | ||
| Slowhand96 |
Erik I got an education this weekend, thank you. I have done a ton of research this weekend about viscosity, you are right about the thicker oil v.s. thinner oil. I seem to own the exception that proves the rule. I have this truck, I work it hard, hauling, plowing etc. I can't tell you how many times I've seen 000000 on the odometer. A couple years back I did a compression test and the results were anywhere from 100 to 150psi. A friend gave me the same advice as you, put in thicker oil. So I put in 10-40, the compression evened out but oil usage increased to 1 qt per 1000 miles and a slight blue haze out the pipe. When summer came I upped the ante to 20-50 and it appeared to get worse and began pumping oil into the air cleaner. I went back to 5-30 and oil usage went back to 1 qt to 2500 miles, the blue smoke stopped and no oil on the air filter. I'm doing some serious head scratching now? | ||
| Ezblast |
As long as I keep the RPMs above 5000 - both bikes puke oil - been the nature of the beast - I even had the head oil drain hole widened, the pcv valve seat chamfered, and all new lines rerouted up and then down - still pukes oil - lol GT - JBOTDS! EZ  | ||
| Slowhand96 |
I've been doing a lot of thinking about what Erik mentioned "If the rings made a perfect seal then the crankcase pressure would only come from the piston moving down the bore (causing an opposite 'compression' stroke)." In a single or a twin that shares a crank pin (like Harley's) the crank case is seeing + and - pressure pulses or doing a tremendous amount of breathing as the pistons move up and down in the bores together. Thinking about a kid bouncing on a beach ball... In an opposed twin or any other multi cylinder engine this wouldn't be so much of a problem because for every piston moving up there is a piston moving down to cancel the internal displacement. Obviously there is a lot of blowing out but is there a significant amount of sucking in? If so, our bikes are compensating for this positive / negative pressure pulse by breathing through the tiny little breather tube. Has any research been done on some sort of an accumulator? Erik, Ed, Am I way off base? | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
So what are you guys getting at here? use thinner, or thicker oil? | ||
| Slowhand96 |
Gearheaderiko is correct, I'm full of it. Thicker. Something like 20-50, synthetic is best. Try a search of the archives, there are lots of posts that concern breather mods, oil consumption, oil types, brands and viscosities for various seasons and areas of the country. It's all a good read. I have learned something every time I log on here, even stuff I didn't realize I wanted to know... | ||
| Swampy |
What were you using in it? You should be using 20W-50 synthetic. The "Old Guys" using 60 weight oil is for the older motors, using totally different warm up proceedures(read Looong) and low revs most of the time. I know that is probably not the case for most of us, other than a good warm up period, but normally we are riding the heck out of the bike bouncing it off the rev limiter all the time. Stop worring about it, and clean it more often, put that draft tube out to the ground. By the way, its not a PCV valve, it is a CVT, there is noting positive about it but the pressure....LOL! A PCV uses engine vaccum to draw the crankcase gasses into the intake manifold to be burned in the engine. The "Other" tube on a PCV system sould be a tube to the air cleaner to let clean air into crankcase to keep from creating a vaccum in the crankcase. On a single cylinder there isn't enough engine vaccum available to run a PCV system. So just run it like it was originally designed for, with a crankcase vent tube run to the ground. That way you won't get the oil all over bike.  (Message edited by gearheaderiko on March 03, 2007) | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Slowhand:I'm always learning stuff at Badweb and your truck is a puzzle waiting to be solved. The twins have a timed breather valve. Not getting the timing right can cause problems. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Swampy: I dont know if I disagree with you about the PCV or just the way you put it! It is a PCV valve as it only allows venting and it cannot suck in air (and it only went into the air cleaner for the EPA). So you dont really need a breather filter and you can run the tube to the ground without much risk of sucking anything in (on that we agree). It only sucks during cranking, once the engine starts, its all pressure (thats why we dont need a negative pulse vent).The simple VW's had a vent line and a vented oil cap (to even the pressure). The vent line was closed with a slit that would only allow pressure/oil to escape while not sucking anything in during start up. Much breather research has been done on the HD twins, but there doesnt seem to be a need on the single. I do suppose an accumulater could be built, but in actuality, the 'Twin Cam' (or TC) engines already have one. I hope all that makes sense! | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
PS The RaceBlast spews very, very, little oil out the PCV, mostly water/gas vapor! | ||
| Swampy |
A baffel of some sort might work up at the top of the rockerbox or in the elbow that plugs into the rockerbox itself. | ||
| Dentfixer |
Spacecapsule1, Here is a simple way to reroute your breather hose(s). $30 It works. http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t200/buffalobue ll/ Without seeing your setup I have to ask, do you have a drain tube running down from your breathers? Or just a tube running to a filter at the back of your bike? Remember the breather system is just an exit for the oil mist pressure that exists in the heads. A tube downward to the ground is a must and is perfectly fine as is. No need for a filter. But the hose must run downwards so gravity can pull the oil and dirt away from the heads. The Filter everyone uses is actually just a "vent" for that tube running downward. The tube ends with a plug or a catch can. The tube does not exit through a filter. The filter is just to vent the drain tube or catch can. Does this make sense? I know it sounds stupid but you'd never believe how many people do not understand the basic function of this breather system. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Thanks for weighing in Ron with some pics to boot! | ||
| Dentfixer |
You're welcome. I can always post pics of the "T" fitting at the top but I assume everyone knows to run both hoses into a T and then down. But if anyone wants pics, can do. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
No, I dont think everyone knows about the 'T'. My routing advice used to be run the line from the PCV valve up to a breather (at a high point on the bike), then another line down for a drain/collector. I got so spoiled with the raceBlast not using any oil, I forgot my own advice on the streetbike and just ran it out to the back of the bike (without the drain/collector). I quickly found out how much oil a stocker can spew! Your breather set up Dentfixer is great advice. (Message edited by gearheaderiko on March 04, 2007) | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Dentfixer, Yes I have a drain tube in addition to the vent/filter. They way I did it was the same most people seem to have done it, by using a tee and adding the vent line and routing it under the seat to keep it hidden, then the drain line continues on down the passenger foot peg and is plugged. I actually had to wrap a rag around the filter to help absorb all the oil that gets spewed out..... | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Have you tried running it with the drain tube unplugged? | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
No, haven't tried that. I wonder if that will that spray oil all over the back side of the bike, kind of like water does while riding in the rain? | ||
| Swampy |
On my Blasts I have an uncapped tube going from the rocker cover to the ground down by the foot peg with no breather. I don't have any noticable oil spew on the left side of the bike or any on the brake. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Oh, I think you'll still spew oil, I was just wondering if it just might change where the oil spews from. At least then you'd know if you ran it to the ground where all that oil would go. If you happen to be 'lucky' enough to have a bike that spews a lot, where do you want that oil, all over the back of the bike, the side, the rear tire or back through the air cleaner? Or run a vented line to a catch can. Some use a clear water bottle so its easy to see the oil level. Racey but not pretty! | ||
| Swampy |
Yeah, if your bike is letting off alot of oil then put it in a catch can. You could even find a cool place to attach it to like the swing arm. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
looks like i'm screwed either way i go. my setup is a vented drain line with a plug. with the catch can, you'll still need a vent, which is really the same thing except in a higher capacity. Through the vent is where all the gunk comes from, so even if a had a catch can, i'd still be venting oil mist....or does a catch can prevent that in some magical way? | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
I'd hoped that with the vent and drain it wouldnt spew out so much out the breather. Unfortunately the catch can isnt magic, but you really dont need the extra breather vent except that a hose straight from the PCV valve fits loosely in the top of the catch can (or the can is vented). Its just that if you're spewing that much oil it might be a pain to keep emptying the catch can. | ||
| Spacecapsule1 |
Yeah, I was hoping the same when I re-routed the line out of the airbox and added the vent. The problem is that instead of going into the drain line, the mist gets vented, and makes a mess. I guess for now I'll just keep a rag wrapped around the vent to catch the "mist". | ||
| Dentfixer |
I think the filter/vent should be as far down the "vertical" running tube as possible. I think it allows the mist to condense some so the thicker liquid will drip past the vent to the catch can or catch tube as in my case. No spewing from my set up yet. I do have the vent/filter on a 90 degree elbow which may make a difference too. Maybe I need to hold it to the rev limiter for a few miles to test it? |
