| Author | Message | ||
     Jbar |
How are the current owners/racers/mechanics tuning this bike? No 02 sensor, so no gas analysis from the dyno would make it tough, I would think... all comments are welcome... | ||
| Slaughter |
How are the current owners/racers/mechanics tuning this bike? No 02 sensor, so no gas analysis from the dyno would make it tough, I would think... The Buell race modules have always been this way. They really are HUGELY different than some of the simpler systems like we've heard of elsewhere here that only deal with enriching the fuel mixture. They need separate readings for each exhaust. You can make subtle tuning adjustments using a conventional sniffer in the tailpipe but you cannot tune it from scratch after major engine changes without separate oxygen readings for each cylinder. I am assuming the RR engine is like the other race motors in tuning (having only worked on my non-RR). You really cannot tune these machines without a set of pipes setup for dyno tuning with 2 oxygen sensors that you can read on your laptop or through the dyno's oxygen recorder. This set of pipes is ONLY used for dyno tuning. (or you could weld in 2 sensor bungs for the dyno and then plug them back up for racing) The motors really are tuned like two big singles. Different map for each cylinder. The ONLY way to really know is to have a set of pipes for tuning or to get a map developed for your motor configuration. Not knowing the RR motor - I have to assume that you get a map for each different RR engine configuration that you buy from Buell (for example, the de-tuning kit for MotoST HP limits and the Sunoco spec fuel) If you change fuel, you can re-tune with a single sniffer stuck in the tailpipe. Usually a fuel change doesn't require a full re-mapping, it might have you richen or lean the whole map - and that is just a simple change in one specific address for "Learned Fuel" Simple changes such as lowering/raising rev limit, enriching or leaning the whole map to compensate for weather or elevation, that's all simple stuff - 90 seconds on the laptop. You do have to have a good idea of how your motor will run at the different conditions and note them. If you are tuned at sea level, the first time you race at say 3000 feet, do a quick 2 or 3 pulls on the dyno with a tailpipe sniffer, adjust the learned fuel, do a couple more pulls and then note your changes. You will need to keep good notes - probably have a couple settings for different elevations and a couple settings for different temperatures. Changes are really easy from the laptop. Buell Racing is very supportive of racers but you have to realize that an RR motor is going to be pretty well sorted out from the factory... BUT if you have to tune it from scratch, PLAN on 2 full days on the dyno. (been there, done that on my 1169 motor) Nobody said racing was cheap. It's still early, haven't had second cup of coffee so I'll re-read this later today and probably won't make any sense to myself so if I've confused you, I apologize in advance. Some of the real RR racers will correct me. I'll have a chance to play with an RR motor after Daytona when Bartels gets theirs for Jeff Dixon. Heck, til I get my next cup of coffee, I doubt I'll make a whole lot of sense. (Message edited by slaughter on March 04, 2007) (Message edited by slaughter on March 04, 2007) | ||
| Slaughter |
Do you have your RR yet? Until Daytona is over (AMA and MotoST) - we won't see any hardware out of Buell Racing since they're buried alive with the start of the racing seasons. If you are interested in having some slave labor, I'd gladly travel up to Vegas to share in the learning experience since I'll have to be helping get Dixon's RR going for Bartels. Of course, the really good news would be to find that the motor COMES with a developed map which would then only require a couple pulls on the dyno with a tailpipe sniffer to verify overall mixture and then go racing! (Message edited by slaughter on March 04, 2007) | ||
| Jbar |
Hey Slaughter, thanks for all of the good advice. I don't have the bike yet; it's at LV H-D. They FINALLY got the special spring for the STM slipper clutch and installed it on Friday. Their engine wiz was supposed to do the prescribed pre-delivery heat cycles on their dyno, but they'd never done a Buell before (they do a ton of H-Ds and specialize in engine mods that take the Big Twin to 150HP and 150 ft lbs of torque!) and the dyno needed to be re-bolted to accommodate the Buell's short wheelbase. Monday's the day...! It comes with a factory map and I've installed the mapping program provided by Buell Racing (S/W loads on a laptoop and is called PCM Tool by Kimball Electronics...version 2.2.1.0). Needs to be connected to the ECM to work, but there is a saved map that i've loaded and it works OK... You comment about the O2 sensors on a separate set up set of pipes makes sense...i've heard that the leaded race fuel burns the O2 up, but that might be just track b/s... Thanks for the offer; i might take you up on it. | ||
| Slaughter |
The leaded fuel just works better in a race motor - a touch easier on valve seats. With no 02 sensors, you can run leaded. I think the RR does require higher octane unless you drop the compression (for MotoST or Club rules which restrict HP) It hurts to have to run $10-$12 a gallon fuel! (my motor is tuned to run pump gas but it has only 10.5 compression) I had run it on VP race fuel U4 (92 octane) - and it really loved it - though had to richen it up a bit because it's heavily oxygenated. There is just no need for O2 sensors on the racebikes once you get a map that works. Do you have the Windows version of the Kimball software yet? I'm still using the older DOS/Text-based program. Good enough but I got to see Matt Rasmussen running the new software on some of Hal's bikes at Autobahn and it's much easier to work. | ||
| Jbar |
The XBRR is set up to run on Rockettfuel 114 leaded only. I've heard that VP 110 is about the same. I have the Windows version. It's about 40 mb. Do you have an FTP? I'd upload it for you...I can send you the Word doc Manual right away if you have an email... | ||
| Jbar |
btw, the compression is 12.5:1 | ||
| Jbar |
Rockett Brand Fuel 114 (www.rockettbrand.com) is MON 110 and RON 119 | ||
| Slaughter |
As I understand the new software, it is tied to a "key" that is in the serial cable used on your bike... meaning your software only works on your system. That's just what I have heard. With the old stuff you could use one cable and one program to tune all the bikes. Go ahead and send the Word doc manual to my email. Could be good reading. I'm going to do the software upgrade after everybody's back from Daytona. email is: qedqed at verizon (dot) net Thanks! (don't send the program, there might be copyright issues - even if it could work) | ||
| Jbar |
I sent the manual. Let me know what you think... Also, trying to get AIM Sports (the "My Chron" people) to map their MXL Pista to the Kimball ECM...I bought one and plan to mount it inside the two air scoops ahead of the fuel cap. I can't find out any serial (RS-232 or USB)protocol specs to interface the Pista to the Kimball ECMs. Do you have the protocol, by chance? | ||
| Slaughter |
Got the doc. Probably won't read it til later tonight. I finally got my new laptop to work with the DOS based software (my ebay laptop I should say) You might see about getting the communication protocols from Dan Hurda or Matt Rasmussen when they all get back from Daytona. I talked to Dan about data acquisition through the module - is possible but not intuitive. I think the Pista can read a milivolt signal - the output from a thermocouple or O2 sensor - but I've never used one so am not much help there. You could literally use the track as a dyno if you could record throttle position, RPM and Oxygen from each cylinder. Actually would be better than a dyno! | ||
| Jbar |
I'll put Michael Jaynes from AIMSports in contact with Dan Hurda or Matt Rasmussen (are these Buell engineers?). He is very willing to program the Buell as a "plug and play" with the Pista similar to the inline 4 bikes that currently work without sensors. It does have a Lambda Sond input, as well as 8 analog inputs. That includes cylinder head temp, exhaust temp, etc. However, it's better if I don't have to duplicate sensors that are already on the XBRR and the Kimball ECM is using. I'll try to email you the electrical schematic out of the XBRR Owner's Manual after I post this... Good idea about the track as a dyno...the Pista also (with the external accelerometer that i purchased) will even show the actual "track" that the bike follows around the racetrack and play it back on a PC!!! | ||
| Slaughter |
They are both Buell engineers at Buell racing. If they can't help out, nobody really can. Again, until Daytona is over with, they're pretty much unavailable. He can call the switchboard in East Troy and leave a voicemail. | ||
| Tenracing |
VP MRX01 is what VP says a few of the RR riders are using with excellent results. | ||
| Slaughter |
You can send an email to VP Racing and ask for their equivalent fuel. Their tech director is very responsive. EVERY time I have sent an email in the morning before work, the answer was in my inbox when I returned home in the evening. MotoST has a Sunoco unleaded spec fuel that would require de-tuning of the motor (rules limit HP for the SST class anyways - I think Buell makes a detuning kit to do this) That Rockett fuell is not the only game in town - but if you get a fuel that is much different from it as far as oxygenation, you're going to have to either re-map or more likely change the learned fuel value - or what I believe in the RR software is the "Global Fuel Correction Factor." - rather than point-by-point remapping, it does an overall richening or leaning. Note: I'm trying really hard to learn this system too. I still use the old DOS based program and will be getting the software upgrades after the crew returns from Daytona. | ||
| Easyrider |
We made 2 small 8mm holes in the headers and will connect 2 lamda's for reading the AF. Today I am going to play on the dyno to first do the brake in off the engine and give her some miles. Then I am going to make the fuell map for the bike. As soon as i have some results, I will post them here.. | ||
| Easyrider |
I did not finished the complete story, today I hope to finish the Fuell map. here are some pictures from yesterday and a small explain. http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/artikelen.asp?aid=46 (Message edited by Easyrider on April 04, 2008) | ||
| Easyrider |
wow, I need this engine for my streetbike.. It's making wheely's in the 4th gear... It took me 3 days (after receiving the latest software from Buell Racing to make the bike run good. Because this engine has only 4 complete gas tanks of dyno and street miles I made the map on the save side, and very rich. It's making 141 RWHP and on 142 NM of OF torque. I need to remap the complete bike again, because at 3600 revs the fuell injectors are completly open from 60% TPS and higher and I need to make a enrichment over the complete fuel map to map it again. On the poorest area it's running A/F of 14. Wich is too poor from my opinion. I mad a special home made air system to simulate high speed airintake.. The difference is big if I just uses the blower for engine cooling only.. Tonight we take her to the circuit and tomorrow we go and make the setup for the driver to make her ready for our first race in the Ducati clubrace... Try some different tyres and setups for the suspension. I need to get the dyno posted later on. |
