| Author | Message | ||
     Indy_bueller |
Court: When a company like Buell has 8 programs under way Interesting, very interesting..... Pup: sportbikes have no reason to have fuel in the frame and oil in the swingarm I'll agree with the oil in the swingarm part. That is definately true. However, gravity effects Japanese and European bikes just as much as American. Continuing to mount a fuel tank up high is simply Engineers refusing to break with established paradigms. In that respect, the XB was certainly ahead of its time. Note that they all jumped on the underslung exhaust bandwagon after the XB came out too. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I don't know that the XB was ahead of it's time in 2003, but it was certainly among the most innovative bikes availible. Still is. The XB engine provides some interesting problems to solve that other bikes don't need to worry about, and the execution was incredible. The bottom line is they still are among the best handling machines out there. Being able to hold that spot with essentially no chassis changes (on the short models) is pretty remarkable. | ||
| Xlcr |
Hmmm...'alternate' front suspensions have been around since before telescoping forks. All of the early bikes had leading or trailing link set-ups, and the Ner-a-Car of the '20s had an automotive-like multi-link design complete with a steering wheel! But if you must know, the first bike with telescopic forks was the English Scott in about 1908. It also had a water-cooled two-stroke vertical twin engine and chain-drive with a two-speed foot-shifted gearbox. Impressive for the time. Fuel injection appeared on many bikes in the early '80s, though all of them dropped them in the Great Slump but BMW. Adjustable Handlebars, seats, AND pegs appeared on the Brough Superior in the '30s. Four-valve oil-cooled heads first appeared on the DOHC Peugeot twin of 1912, Harley and Indian followed with their famous 'eight-valve' racers a few years later. Fractured rod-ends appeared on cars in the '80s. Now here's a really tough question. Name something the Japanese invented. | ||
| Mcgiver |
"Now here's a really tough question. Name something the Japanese invented." Sushi!  Brian | ||
| Firemanjim |
And I always thought a dry sump system made for more HP,Nascar,drag racers,lots using dry sump.It keeps the oil off the spinning crankshaft for less parasitic drag. | ||
| Rocketman |
I challenge you to name ONE other PRODUCTION bike in 2003 that sported fuel in frame. The Brit's had fuel in the frame, a pressed steel frame at that, back in the 1920's. Granted that wasn't in 2003, but they were ahead of Buell by 80 years. Nothing's new. Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
Indy,IL4 sportbikes have the fuel nice and low between the frame behind the cylinders.Buell did a good job solving some problems associated with using a 45 degree twin,but these are problems IL4 sportbikes don't have. (Message edited by thepup on March 02, 2007) | ||
| Cycleaddict |
XLCR ,BMW uses all of the innovations (prev. post) on most of their production m/c's now and still make m/c's today, bear in mind we are discussing current m/c's not defunct "relics" or one of a kind racing/experimental m/c's. oh . .the japs invented products that "work properly"that have the features we like and are cost effective ! they also invented the american made japanese car & m/c. (toyota, honda gold wing etc.) detroit offered us the"three on the tree" until the imports offered us floor shifts.imagine the world of m/c's with-out imports ! | ||
| Court |
>>>>As for the ZTL,rim mounted disks have been around since the 60's True. In the hands of folks who wracked their brains trying to figure out a way to make it work and commercially feasible. I hate to use my Steve Jobs quote again but . . . .
It's what plagued folks who had the potential, say John Britten. If you want to be **IN** the motorcycle business. . . being a genius is a great head start. If you don't eventually move it in the commercial market . . you're relegated to being pretty much a philosopher. I personally have enjoyed watching one manufacture try to figure out the ZTL braking system and underslung muffler. Honda wants that stuff so bad they can't stand it. But. . . if Florence never left the starting blocks she'd have never been a champion. The internet serves up its own shining examples of folks who are willing to cast themselves as "authorities" but when challenged to name one positive contribution they've made. . . well, they pale away. Buell has taken some elegant engineering principles and actually refined, designed and packaged them to the point where you and I can walk in a store, buy them and avail ourselves to the advantages. That's huge news. Huger news is that while the part of Buell visible to the consumer, i.e. the retail product has benefited a lot from this. . . the part of Buell you DON'T see (and many processes at Harley-Davidson) has benefited much more . . . it's what's called INVESTING IN YOUR FUTURE. It's when you have guts enough to give up something you REALLY WANT (Racing this year) to focus your energy and talents on insuring you won't be in the top 10, but you'll be the leader. Dave Gess said it best . . . most folks, comfy to be pundits taking pot shots, have no comprehension as to what is taking place at Buell. Of course. . . I'm a construction worker . . so I'll defer to folks wiser than I.  (Message edited by court on March 02, 2007) | ||
| Xl1200r |
detroit offered us the"three on the tree" until the imports offered us floor shifts ??? American car manufacturers have been putting shifters on the floor before most japanese car manufacturers even exsisted. What I have noticed when it comes to Japenese vehicles is the don't really invent or innovate all the much - they are masters at production and quality processes, and are able to copy others designs with perfection, and then make slight improvements that somehow become "revolutionary" or something. If you look at a Japenese sport bike, bothing has really changed in a long time. The styling has progressed, but nothing radical has really come down down the pike in a long time. Gone are the days of the Honda Six (and I'm not talking Goldwings). When I look for revolutionary or truely innovative designs, the Americans and Europeans always take the cake. If you really want to look hard enough, I bet you'll find that nearly any mechanical technology existed before now. Fractured rods and all. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
xl1200 please read my previous post completely. the japs & other successful co.s are offering the consumer what they want NOW ,not yesterday. i had a'77 chevy p/u with "3 on the tree". crazy huh! | ||
| Ridrx |
Thepup, I didn't ask if the japs had "reason" to use fuel in frame, the question was "who is building PRODUCTION bikes in 2003 with these designs"? "...but these are problems IL4 sportbikes don't have." I never said fuel in frame was THE way to go, but when was the last time a jap bike saw a MAJOR design change? They are built with the same design that's been used for years...they must be perfect. Rocket, You said it yourself"granted it wasn't 2003." Any of those stamped steel fuelers in production today? You won't be happy until you get a 300hp fusion powered bike that weighs 150lbs and looks like a Ducati, will ya ? M1combat, "...it's overrated bro..."  Cycleaddict,Firemanjim, Am I to understand oil in the swing arm is a BAD thing? I would think the swingarm to be cooler than the engine cases thus extending oil life, falls right into the simplify upkeep column. I doubt you would see a gain of more than 1-2 hp using dry sump on the current powerplant, besides we are talking about daily ridden, consumer serviced bikes. Dry sump systems are not cheap either. If BMC could've found substantial power gains by using dry sump I feel certain they would've used it. The cost versus the gain just cannot be justified. | ||
| Freezerburn |
Oil in the swingarm might increase the unsuspended weight but that most of the oil is held closer to the swingarm pivot it probably has little negative effect. I think it is thoughtful engineering in a way that eliminates extra parts i.e. gas tank or oil tank, that really leads to refinement. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Ridrx,you misunderstood me. I was replying to Cycleaddicts statement in regard to wet sump motors as being a "good" thing. Wet sump is just easier and cheaper.No separate oil tank and hoses.Pretty much any high performance vehicle will be trying in some way to keep the oil away from spinning parts. It causes parasitic drag(ever run your hand through a tub of water) and aerates the oil. Deep oil pans,crank scrapers,windage trays,all devices to keep that oil off crankshaft.Wet sump is not some hi tech idea to be embraced. | ||
| Spike |
Which of the big 4 implemented that on the 2003 models? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up, the answer is none. The CBR954RR, GSXR1000, YZF-R1, and the ZX-9R all had the fuel tank mounted directly above the motor with the airbox below. The IL4 may have a different solution for moving the fuel than storing it in the frame, but it's a solution they didn't implement until later. Up until that point, fuel storage was a problem for the IL4. Even now as many of the big 4 have moved their fuel tanks rearward and allowed them to sit lower within the frame, the fact remains that a good portion of the fuel is still located above the frame. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
a wet sump motor needs no "additional " container to holds it's oil ! now that's effcient use of space ! | ||
| Ridrx |
Firemanjim, Sorry if I misunderstood your comment. However the fact that hoses are still needed to plumb oil to/from swingarm sorta makes it a hybrid wet/dry sump doesn't it?...wonder if a true dry sump is even possible with this engine? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Am I to understand oil in the swing arm is a BAD thing? I would think the swingarm to be cooler than the engine cases thus extending oil life, falls right into the simplify upkeep column. I doubt you would see a gain of more than 1-2 hp using dry sump on the current powerplant, besides we are talking about daily ridden, consumer serviced bikes. Dry sump systems are not cheap either. If BMC could've found substantial power gains by using dry sump I feel certain they would've used it. The cost versus the gain just cannot be justified. Uh...What? The Buell (as well as every other current Harley - save maybe the VROD, and pretty much every HD from years before that I can think of) uses a dry sump oiling system. That's what the external tank means. The oil is not stored in the engine cases. a wet sump motor needs no "additional " container to holds it's oil ! now that's effcient use of space ! No additional container? I don't know about you, but there's a big honkin' oil pan sitting right under the engine in my car. Is it an efficient use of space? Sometime yes, sometimes no. A wet sump oil pan can only go in one place. A dry sump oil tank can be shaped to fit in any available space you may have. Regardless, the dry sump design on HD engines is more likely a relic from the past than anything else. Bikes don't really need them because the g-forces tend to always push straight down on a motorcycle. In a car, when you have high lateral g's, a dry sump makes a lot of sense to be sure that you don't uncover the pickup tube - Hence why the new Corvette Z06 uses a dry sump system. That said, I still like how dry sump oil systems give the perception of high performance, and still addresses the parasitic drag problems posted above. Does my Buell need it? No. Am I glad it still has it? Yes. (Message edited by xl1200r on March 02, 2007) | ||
| Ridrx |
Cycleaddict, If the XB motor is a true wet sump why is the oil in the swing arm "in a separate container"? Should it not be in the crankcase, nice and low? The benefits of the oil in sa are many...cooler oil(less maint./longer engine life),less oil for crank to push through(lower parasitic loss),and I would think added oil capacity(you gotta fill those lines with oil too). | ||
| Thepup |
"Which of the big 4 implemented that on the 2003 models? I'll save you the trouble of looking it up, the answer is none. The CBR954RR, GSXR1000, YZF-R1, and the ZX-9R all had the fuel tank mounted directly above the motor with the airbox below. The IL4 may "have a different solution for moving the fuel than storing it in the frame, but it's a solution they didn't implement until later. Up until that point, fuel storage was a problem for the IL4. Even now as many of the big 4 have moved their fuel tanks rearward and allowed them to sit lower within the frame, the fact remains that a good portion of the fuel is still located above the frame." Spike,I have a 20 year old yamaha FZR that has the gas low between the frame rails.The XB holds the gas pretty high when there is a full tank,it's not like the XB holds all the fuel low. | ||
| Ridrx |
XL1200r, Admittedly my HD knowledge is LIMITED to put it mildly. I have never been inside an HD twin, but my initial belief was they WERE dry sump. I agree with the point about lateral G's uncovering the pickup in a car and not so necessary on a bike, I also agree that while my Buell doesn't NEED it, I'm glad it has it...like you said "perceived performance". Are there any other bikes using dry sump...or is this yet another item I can brag on as a Buell only feature? | ||
| Court |
Review the identity property of multiplication and then read the formula for how a force moment is calculated. The swingarm is elegant engineering. Big old void with excellent thermal transfer properties sitting right there barely more than couple inches off cg. . . elegant. | ||
| Spike |
Plenty of bikes have stored the fuel elsewhere at some point or another, but the modern trend has been to leave the tank above the engine. Buell broke away from that with the XB, and suddenly everyone else starts moving their fuel tanks around.
  I realize these pictures are pretty rough, but it's quite clear that the XB is still holding its fuel lower than the R1. While the XB platform didn't introduce any new technologies to the world in 2003, it was clearly an innovative use of technology. Why even try to argue that? | ||
| Thepup |
Spike,what part don't you get,Japanese sportbikes have been putting the fuel low in the frame for 20 years,so unless my math is wrong,they were doing it before 2003. | ||
| Spike |
What I don't get is why you can't distinguish between a singular existing technology and the implementation of multiple existing technologies to make an innovative product. It is the simultaneous use of many innovative existing technologies that makes the XB unique. No one is making the case that Buell invented some singular new technology and therefore the XB is great, but that's exactly the point you're arguing against. It's a perfect example of straw-man argumentation. | ||
| Ridrx |
I guess the underslung exhaust is a relic too, after all cages have been doing it for decades. Must be why Suzuki started doing it...yea that's the ticket. All this time I thought Buell was an innovator and to find out he's been copying japs all along...give me a break. No jap bike with a traditional tank will EVER carry fuel as low as my XB.You wanna go frame to frame in a torsional rigidity test with your fizzer? Carrying fuel low is a goal for ANY performance machine(C.O.G), and only ONE aspect of the "Trilogy",combining that with underslung exhaust,low unsprung weight,chassis rigidity,etc. is the point, not that fuel in frame means instant handling..."the sum of the parts is greater than the whole"... has never been more true than on an XB IMHO. My original statement "ahead of it's time in 03" was not meant to imply Buell invented all these ideas, only that he was the first to incorporate them successfully into a production motorcycle that I can afford. | ||
| Thepup |
Riderx,I sure would like to see torsional rigidity test between the two,would be interesting to see how far ahead the XB is to 20 year old sportbike frame.Does all the "innovations"Buell uses really make the XB handle better than any other sportbike?Guess that depends on who is riding it. | ||
| Ridrx |
"guess that depends on who's riding it" SOOO VERY TRUE. I never claimed the XB handled better than any other bike( I used to own an FZR 400, and have ridden a Honda NSR 250SE,both astronomical cornering bikes). I do believe that "all the "innovations" Buell uses" make it easier for us street types to get thru the corner faster,fact is my bone stock XB12R has more ability than I have skill(but I'm workin' on that ). | ||
| Thepup |
I agree Ridrx,I have a XB too and no doubt it has more ability than me. | ||
| Xl1200r |
xl1200 please read my previous post completely. the japs & other successful co.s are offering the consumer what they want NOW ,not yesterday. i had a'77 chevy p/u with "3 on the tree". crazy huh! I read your post fine the first time and my point still stands. American auto manufacturers didn't sell 1 model of car with a floor shift, then ignored the consumers and made everything column shift (like your truck). They've been making floor shifts all along, regardless of what the competition was doing. And to build on your point - I don't think the Japanese are selling bikes that people want (as far as sport bikes go). They're selling bikes they've convinced people to want - those are two different ideas. There is a very small population out there of pure performance enthusiasts - people who want race this and race that and are willing to sacrafice everything to have it. I'd say that at least 98% of the population are NOT these people, but somehow they come to realization that they just have to have a race bike to be cool. I'm smarter than that (as are you since we all ride Buells here). Ever notice how as a general trend, riders start out with sportbikes and as they get older they move into Sport Tourers, Touring bikes, cruisers, etc.? People's tastes don't change that much, they just realize what motorcycle is all about, and it's not 180mph freeway jaunts and constant wheelies. They realize they'd rather be able to ride spiritedly all day than like a maniac for 40 minutes before thier back is sore. |
