| Author |
Message |
    
S1eric
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 06:34 pm: | 
|
Xl1200R It takes alot to be competitive in the dirt market. Yes we all owned dirt bikes in our lives, including HD Buell execs.
But i think your missing my point.
Buell is a relatively small company with a niche market.
There is alot of R&D that goes into dirt bikes. It might not seem like it from the outside.
The other manufacturers of dirt bikes have alot more vested time in the making of dirt bikes. And knowing the product.
They have spent decades improving their product.
And to think you can just drop in the market and be successful is, Using blakes term BOLD.
Case in point, Cannondale.
You ever ride one ?
Actually a decent product.
Very innovative fuel injected 4 stroke dirt bike.
Where are they now.
The market was harsh to them.
Do you remember the last time HD took a swing at the dirt market. I do.
Nothing to right home about. lets put it that way. They had some decent riders at events but----------
The got passed up in the market because someone developed a better product.
Is -- Or can Buell keep up with a market that changes that fast. Were talking lots of R&D here.
When they won`t field a road race team for the XBRR. ( I wish they would I think it would be successful )
I think the XBRR has more potential than the racing world sees right now.
But with out a full blow effort ----
We may never know.
And as for the comment about no one out their could possibly have my experience.
All I ever said about my experience, Was that i`m a motocrosser from way back.
I`ll go into it if you want. Lets just say I grew up on the race track.
Maybe thats what i like about my Buells.
They remind me of why I like riding dirt bikes. Fun easy to toss around nimble handling great to wheelie. And they stop fairly well to.
All I`m saying is It`s a tough market to just jump into half way. Or even to start from scratch. The competition has A nice head start.
S1Eric |
Budc
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 07:46 pm: |
|
Hey CityXslicker,
I don't know about a discount but I did check on the Nightster parts for you. We won't see a parts catalog on it for probable a month and I'm not sure when the parts will actually be available. But check back with me in a month and I should know more.
Looks like a cool project.
Thanks,
BudC |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 10:02 pm: |
|
Hey, not to jump in the middle, but S1Eric, if you look back at your post that lit off someone, it was:
"And they buy out someone. Thats the only chance they have.
I`m a dirt biker first always will be. This just touched a nerve.
Buell and dirt bike ?
Must be a joke."
That doesn't sound like "it's a tough market" That recent statement from you is reasonable. Now if you are surprised that someone was upset with your first post, maybe imagine someone with a lot of MX experience working on this project who sees you call it a "Joke".
I prefer to leave the performance opinions out until we see it.
Anyhow, calling the project a joke and other endearing terms is pretty sad in my opinion. I'd love to see an American dirt bike. Maybe Buell can do it. Some people say Cannondale came close. And, remember, Cannondale was not a motorcycle company, nor had they built 100,000+ motorcycles before starting to build a competitive race bike. |
S1eric
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:30 pm: |
|
Points well taken.
I actually had a Cannondale mountain bike for some time. great for training purposes.
I too would love to see an American dirt bike.
But I would also like to see an American made and BACKED sportbike in road racing.
I think Buell can do it.
Maybe their working on it. They have the back round and experience for the road racing part of the venture.
But how many irons do they want in the fire.
I would like to see them develop the XBRR further. Again it looks like it has lots of potential.
Is the dirt bike venture taking away R&D capital from the XBRR ?
S1Eric |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 02:01 am: |
|
Budc, I work for a dealership way out in the wooley west. We are getting two XL1200N's this week, rumor is that we get to pimp one out. I am jonesing for the take offs, cuz I know that they will likely load it with chrome (true to HD fashion).... mmmm black parts coming my way, I can almost smell them getting ready for my Sportster. Parts cataloque wont be til the next supplement I bet. That is too long to wait. Besides my CityX is about to hit the garage for some lighting and bag items. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 02:08 am: |
|
What a dope I am at times. BudC, I will see you in March for the CityX rental  Court I will be riding out to the Buell factory for a walk around. See you all in March.... Now were did I put that XR750 stat sheet that I was drooling over? |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 05:34 am: |
|
>>>>But how many irons do they want in the fire.
ANSWER - (based solely on personal opinion): Quite a few. Buell is a company founded on and driven my principles of innovation and creativity. There are some ripe opportunities it some markets where folks have come to view the way they are doing it as the only way. Buell has hired TONS of incredibly talented young engineers. These are folks who didn't learn about FEA in a seminar 5 years after college. . . they cut their teeth on it there sophomore year. The level of intellectual talent at Buell is amazing. Couple that with the fact that most the folks are enthusiastic motorcyclist . . . well, I predict some very neat stuff. Bear in mind the patent for the XB frame sat dormant for nearly 17 years until talent, $$$ and manufacturing technology was capable of building what Erik Buell had thought of. He's no where NEAR done.
>>>>I would like to see them develop the XBRR further. Again it looks like it has lots of potential.
You will be thrilled. The XBRR is an ACTIVE program with significant ongoing progress. After having their noses rubbed in "being too enthusiastic and hype" last year, don't be watching for any leaks or public information. . it just doesn't warrant the headaches of dealing with the crap like the team took. The XBRR is a wonderful motorcycle with LOTS of promise.
>>>Is the dirt bike venture taking away R&D capital from the XBRR ?
The answer is "kinda". The XBRR program, like anything in the corporate world, competes for R&D funding $$$. This year there was a slice of pie with Buells name on it. There were choices that had to be made that were quite similar to what Stephen Covey would refer to on page 54, to wit:
quote:Effectiveness lies in the balance - P/PC Balance. P stands for production of desired results, the golden eggs. PC stands for production capability, the ability to produce golden eggs"
In instant case, unfortunately, one choice was "t-shirt and a suite at Daytona this year" (Cost = X) or "advanced testing to ensure developing product is as perfect as possible" (Cost = X). You can see, for a publicly owned company making a profit that emotional desire to mount a full blown "factory race" effort might be a tough sell when it becomes an "either" choice competing with innovative future product.
The good news is there are some exciting developments taking place with the XBRR. No one invested millions to develop the XBRR, see 4 DNF's at Daytona and throw in the towel.
That's the short answer based purely on my PERSONAL OPINION.
Make sense? |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 08:12 am: |
|
You will be thrilled. The XBRR is an ACTIVE program with significant ongoing progress. After having their noses rubbed in "being too enthusiastic and hype" last year, don't be watching for any leaks or public information. . it just doesn't warrant the headaches of dealing with the crap like the team took. The XBRR is a wonderful motorcycle with LOTS of promise.
Make sense?
Sorta, but how do you make significant progress with a racing machine by sitting out the season? That seems to be counter intuitive.
I watch how other companies develop their racing machines, like Honda, for instance. Nicky spent most of last year developing the new 800cc machine by trying out those parts on his 990cc bike under racing conditions. Honda's riders and the rest of the MotoGP teams have been testing their butts off for a couple of months now at the various tracks they rent. Development of their bikes will not stop when the season begins, but will continue throughout the season under rigorous racing conditions.
It would appear that the XBRR will just get farther and farther behind the teams that are racing and developing this year, and this machine wasn't exactly dominating last year.
jimidan} |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 08:19 pm: |
|
Full range means one thing to some, different to another. I would think that rather than building a 125cc, 250cc, 500cc bike offering that we are going to see one platform tweaked for different applications. Ala the KTM 450 that comes in three separate versions. Just my 1.3468 cents worth (inflations hurts) |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 02:06 am: |
|
These are folks who didn't learn about FEA in a seminar 5 years after college. . . they cut their teeth on it their sophomore year.
Dude. Though I am one who is closer to the latter--I think I first encountered FEM/FEA in my Junior year at SMU--than the former, that is neither here nor there when it comes to engineering competence and talent.
Have I ever told you about the Jet Propulsion Lap (JPL) PhD engineers who expertly modeled a 100m diameter radio telescope. They provided their computer model to all the bidders to aid in weight and cost estimating efforts. The winning bidder made good use of the JPL FEA model. The winning bidder ended up spending around $20 Million over their bid before going bankrupt. The end product came in just a million pounds or so over the original weight estimate gleaned from that JPL FEM. Oops.
It was a very tough and expensive lesson that reinforced one of the most profound of basic structural engineering principles, that you cannot push on a rope, or more specifically in that case, that what amounted to piano wire may be light and strong, but it wouldn't carry compression very well.
Learning to run a FEM/FEA program on a computer is different from understanding how to use it correctly; FEM/FEA can easily be as dangerous as it is helpful. Letting young engineers loose with FEM/FEA is akin to handing a loaded rifle and a hand grenade to a raw recruit. They may look good, but you better be ready to protect yourself when the trigger and/or pin are pulled. In the end, it's just another tool, nothing more, nothing less.
I wonder if Bert Rutan himself ever used FEM/FEA. 
Have I ever told you about the confident young master's degree engineer who was proud to have found a solution via FEM/FEA for a long structural strut that defeated the typical problematic resonance. The trick was in reducing the mass while retaining all the cross section and material stiffness. Oops. A simple two minute hand calulation showed the impossibility of the design. I think he spent the better part of a day modeling it on the computer.
A real feel and intuition for how actual structure behaves is by far the most valuable trait in any structural engineer. The rest is just book learnin'.
(Message edited by blake on February 02, 2007) |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:19 am: |
|
>>>A real feel and intuition for how actual structure behaves is by far the most valuable trait in any structural engineer. The rest is just book learnin'.
I agree. Much of FEA history has been plagued with over assumption/simplification of modeling. FEA could be the home away from home for the cliché' :garbage in-garbage out".
The underlying theme of one of my favorite books on the subject is that "if the assumptions, constraints, conditions, sub-models, boundary conditions and so forth are not valid the end product will be of more danger than value.
|
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:48 am: |
|
I wonder if Bert Rutan himself ever used FEM/FEA.
Yes. Was even beta-testing CosmosM
Dan Kreigh is his go-to stress/analysis guy though. |
|
