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Jimidan
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 03:09 pm: | 
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Buell2001b pukes out:
"JIMMYDan and TROJAN, take your sorry JAPPY bikes out of here. this is BUELL, you wnat to talk about your japp bikes go to another forum."
Wow, it looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the rock. You got your head on bass-ackwards, there sonny. This particular thread was not exclusive to any brand of bikes, and I believe that my Buell and Honda racebike experiences are germane to any newby who is contemplating racing. I still have two (2) Buells in my garage right now. Explain the usefulness of your post to us again...I must'a missed it...
PS- when you preview your message before you post it, those words highlighted in yeller are mispelled...do the best ye' can. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 05:25 pm: |
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Buell2001b,
Uncool. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 06:02 pm: |
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Must have missed the post in question.
I've always been amazed at the out-and-out bigotry about brand/type of bikes.
Folks wanting to get into racing are going to be going through a totally different set of decisions than those who want to go street riding. Even the "Buell Faithful" (and I can claim to be one of them) also know that when starting racing, the Buell isn't always the best answer... UNLESS you can get one really cheap. Remember, you MUST allow for a few crashes in each season and have to consider replacement costs.
Starting racing with a $2000 bike that only uses $300 worth of tires in a year - compared to a $10,000 bike that uses $350 in tires a weekend... you have to be NUTS to start racing on a Buell. (yeah, I know because I STARTED racing on a Buell!)
If you just want to get started, there are many bikes that do well in different classes - the Honda Ascot in Vintage and Singles classes, the FZR400 in various small displacement classes, the SV650 in Twins and light superbike classes... all have their place.
Of course, once in a while you CAN find a burned out XB that you can do a top end rebuild and go racing. The suspension is up to it without a ton of re-work (the SV needs $1000 worth of suspension to go racing) - you can find used race-ready bikes everywhere - ride 'em hard for a season and THEN go out and grab your "real" racebike - sell the original bike for almost what you paid for it. |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Monday, January 15, 2007 - 08:49 pm: |
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Not_purple_s2
Slaughter and several others are correct on the cost of getting an XB race ready.
I bought a salvage title bike that had been rebuilt and on the road when I bought it so I paid a fair price for it. I then added $3200.00 to it.
New oil lines - the ones on it were a little tough looking
New plastic parts, air scoop, oil cooler scoop, rear pillion cover
New Drummer muffler and used header - both mine were dented
New battery
Buell front number plate and belly pan - DaveS
New plugs, wires and check up at local dealer
Vinyl numbers and backgound vinyl
Safety wiring pliers and wire
Buell race brake pads - DaveS
Used set of wheels, bare for spares, then bought all the rotors, sprockets and related hardware - price that sometime!!
Two sets of Pirelli DOT race tires - got a deal, buy 3 got one free.
Rear PitBull stand, my wife bought the front one for my Christmas gift
Extra seat - Ebay - cutting it down to help me get lower
Extra wiring harness - Ebay - removing unneccesary wiring, I'll sell my complete street harness later
Forks and rear shock upgraded - Ed at Trackside Engineering
Granted some of these things would be needed regardless of what you race but this is also why buying an existing race bike can be a real bargin. Now I knew all this before I jumped in but I wanted to race a Buell so I had a good idea what I was in for before I started. I learned a lot of this by watching the Racing threads here and talking to several of the folks on this board.
I did recoupe $300.00 recently by selling off all the street parts on Ebay and the stock front tire to a fellow BadWebber.
I've only raced one day so far and haven't had to replace crash damage or other parts. I also already owned a good pair of boots, gloves, leathers and helmet. I have a new truck but borrow a friends trailer to haul the bike. I've still got to purchase a set of tirewarmers and a generator this winter so I still have money to invest to do it right.
This is not a cheap hobby and it is a hobby for me, I've got a ways to go to get back any contingency money. But before you throw in the towel on your dream, price a new leasure boat, golf clubs and a cart or anything else that folks do for a hobby. Fun costs!! But I'm glad I'm doing this!! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 04:37 am: |
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I have to agree with Slaughter & Gearhead. The Buell makes an excellent race bike, but takes a fair amount of work to get it track ready and competitive. Parts are harder to find and are generally not as easily available from trackside vendors as the equivalent jap bike parts. This is very important, as it means that you either have to invest in a larger stock of spares to carry with you or risk going home early just because you have broken a minor component and can't get another one.
If you race an SV/FZ/CB the chances are there will be 50 other people racing the same bike who can help you out with parts if you are really stuck, whereas with a Buell you are often on your own.
This is not a criticism, but the Buell will probably need more maintenance than an SV or similar too. I know plenty of riders who have done complete seasons on an SV without ever doing anything other than fill up the fuel, some of them major championship winners. The SV engine is pretty much bulletproof and allows you much more time to to concentrate on riding rather than up to your armpits in engine components trying to get everything back together in time for your next race. When you first start racing you will benefit more from talking to other riders, watching what others do and concentrating on the job in hand than you will from stripping engines and stressing about parts etc.
I'm not saying the the Buell is unreliable, just that it takes more looking after.
Lastly, you have to consider that, having tried it, you may not like racing and need to sell the bike. There will always be a bigger potential market for jap racers than there is for Buell racers and it will be easier to shift the bike if you need to.
On the other hand, racing a Buell is a unique experience and certainly brings satisfaction that you just don't get racing jap bikes 
(Message edited by trojan on January 16, 2007) |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 03:30 pm: |
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I started upon the race endeavor all the way up to doing a track school. I wanted to race a regional CCS series but had to put it aside for now. The biggest killer is tires, IMO. Even for track days it is best to invest in race rubber or in the least DOT race tires. Street specific tires can get killed in one day and are generally not up to the task. The best compromise if you must are some of the newer street/track tires out there (especially the dual compound types).
Go a step beyond the minimum prep and safety wire all critical fasteners as well as every fastener in the exhaust system. Running around the racetrack is like a constant dyno session...things come loose that generally don't in normal use.
Like it's been said above, a spare set of controls, pegs, and handlebar are a good idea. If you ride your bike on the street a spare set of track only bodywork is a wise investment as well.
The one piece of advice I didn't take was waiting for engine mods. It's more of a handful but a hell of a lot more fun off the track. It definitely doesn't help the learning curve.
I plan on going opposite of conventional wisdom...buying a cheap, reliable Jap streetbike so I can thrash the Buell on the track!
I agree with what's been said in response to fast street riding. On the street the guy with the biggest balls can be the fastest...on the track it's a mix of natural ability, mental aptitude, and true learned skill. It's a real eye opener. |
Buellrcr
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 04:01 pm: |
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i got race take offs for sale 65plus shipping. 208 and 209 gpa. |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 07:26 pm: |
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So how do you know when race tires are bad? Unlike street tires, they can still have tread on them and not be any good...greasy. I have asked tire reps at the track this question and nobody can give me a straight answer. They talk about heat cycles, blah-blah-blah, but not how to look at a race tire or feel it and tell if there is still life in them.
I see folks selling "race take-off's" all the time, but I figured that they were for posers who put them on their street bikes and rode down to the local hangout where they pretended that they did them that way on the street. Yeah, right.
If the tires are still good for racing why did the racers take them off to begin with?
I am not saying that anybodies' race take-offs are not good, but I wouldn't put them on my race bike even for a track day...I need all of the help I can get.
My theory is to buy race tires even for track days, and then use tire warmers between sessions so that the whole day is just one heat cycle. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 08:40 pm: |
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The BEST collection of "newbie" information EVER put together is Duke Robillard's guide:
http://www.motoracewiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=N ew_Racer_FAQ
This is almost universally referred to in racing BBS FAQ sections.
Duke speaks the truth! |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 08:46 pm: |
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I would recommend against race take-offs unless that is the only thing standing between you riding and not riding. (I know what it's like to be under-funded!)
Traction is unpredictable.
If you're mounting them on a single with less than 50HP, you're probably not at as much risk as on a bigger bike. You don't want to be adapting your reflexes to a totally different handling bike each time you go out. Better to stick to one type of tire and dial in the bike from there.
Get a divorce, sell the kids into slavery.
Just my $0.02 |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 11:30 pm: |
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I'm still in love with my wife, and we don't have any kids.  |
Buellrcr
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 11:40 am: |
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good for track days and pratice, ur not runing 100% in pratice |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 02:07 pm: |
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Some of the sponsored club racers will get new tires for every 8-lap sprint race. In that case, the take-offs are still very good to go. |
Nsbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:35 am: |
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I have the same questions about race tires Jimidan. I've got three sets that came with the race bike I just bought that all have good tread but I don't really trust any of them. I'm thinking of just starting with fresh tires and using the others for spares. How long can you keep a tire before it's no good? I'm storing them in my unheated garage, is that bad for them? |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 07:44 am: |
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What Blake said is true. IF you know the racer and are buying his take-offs directly from the racer, life is good.
If you're buying them out of the pile stacked up at the Pirelli, Dunlop, Bridgestone, Michellin operation, you don't know WHAT you're getting. Amount of tread left isn't nearly as big a deal as heat-cycles.
Talk to the person you're getting the take-offs from.
Saving money on rubber is a big way to keep costs down but I still think having uncertain traction is a bigger impediment to learning... but if saving $200 a month in rubber means getting another 300 miles on a racetrack each month, it's probably not a bad trade-off BUT when you start getting a tad quicker, the drop-off in traction is not a good thing until the time that you're comfortable enough to actually WANT to get practice sliding the bike. (and that's probably the second phase in your racing where your incidence of crashing will see a bump upwards while you are learning to slide the bike) |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:04 pm: |
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As a TRUE novice, I pay for everything so the whole tire issue is very important.
I recently spoke to my tire dealer about some options for the coming season. Pirelli produces a high quality trackday tire, Corsa III's which sell for $275.00 per set compared to the SuperCorsa Pro DOT race tire which sell for $330.00 per set.
My dealer tells me that the Corsa III is a good alternative for the beginning racer as long as tire warmers are used. Their life span will be longer than the Pro's but they are not a full on race tire.
I'm considering them as an early season tire since it will take me a few weekends to get familiar with the bike and racing. As the season and my confidence progress, I can see moving back to the Pro tire.
It's still in the thinking stages right now but this move would certainly save some cash and maybe keep me from pushing the bike over my head until I've had more seat time. |
Josh_cox
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 07:04 pm: |
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Gearhead. The Corsa III is a pretty good tire to get for track days. If you are using this only as a track bike though, I'd say just get slicks. They last much longer than tires with a tread pattern. At least get DOT race tires if you can.
I have a good hook up for Pirelli slicks if you don't mind buying several sets at once. |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 08:22 pm: |
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That's interesting, Josh, I'd never thought about running slicks. I didn't realize they had a longer life span than treaded tires, either. I'm not sure if I can run slicks in the CCS classes I compete in but I'll check it out.
I've heard that slicks will change a bikes handling, though, any thoughts on this?
Thanks for your suggestions!! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 05:12 am: |
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Slicks don't last longer than treaded tyres. In fact, depending upon compound chosen they can actually wear out quicker than treaded tyres, you just don't see the wear so much.
Slicks offer MUCH more grip than even supersport spec treaded tyres, and will also highlight any chassis problems you may have so setup becomes more crucial.
We ran slicks for most of last season and the diffeence in lap times definitely made it worthwhile.
We found that in a weekend's racing (4 x 10 lap races plus two 10 minute practice sessions), we would go through one front and two rear soft/medium compound Pirelli slicks. Some of our competitors (with more money than us obviously!) would change tyres after every race.
Hard compound tyres are available but are a waste of time/money unless you are running endurance length races or in extremely high temperatures.
Heat cycles are very important and it is this that dictates the life of the tyre, not just the visible surface wear. The heat cycles change the molecular structure of the tyre and once it has gone through more than around 8 cycles it has lost most of it's 'stickiness'.
This article gives a good explanation of heat cycling and tyre wear in race car tyres, although it is also valid for bike tyres: http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt3.ht m
Like everything else in racing it comes down to this: BUY THE BEST YOU CAN AFFORD!
I know plenty of club racers who run all year on used race tyre 'take offs' that they buy from the top teams, and they are happy to do that because that is what they can afford to do. I also know other club racers who go through new tyres like they are going out of fashion, but are still slower than the 'take off' guys |
Josh_cox
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 09:31 am: |
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Gearhead,
As Matt mentioned, it REALLY depends on what kind you use. We are endurance racing, so depending on the length of the race, we are using greens (soft) or yellows (medium). You can get white (qualify), blue (supersoft), green, and yellow. and A green front has been able to last us around 8 hours of running time before we start wearing the sides out. The yellow rears are around the same. Green rears, however, get eaten in around 4.5-5 hrs by the XBRR.
Whatever tires you use, talk to your trackside vendor to get good feedback on what works best for what purposes. Also, buy tire warmers so you can hit it hard starting from turn one! |
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