| Author | Message | ||
     Treadmarks |
No problemo, Davo. Just let me know. I have noticed mine seems like the starter is weak lately. 1 or 2 out of 5 starts sounds like it has 12:1 pistons in it. I dont know if I am getting the carbon build up, or if the 5000 miles on the motor are providing a better seal. Since there are no pinging issues, I will check into a higher torque starter. | ||
| Davo |
Treadmarks, Make sure your battery connections are good and tight before you change the starter. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
I would bet that I have a pinger, but thankfully I live at 5300 ft in Albuquerque. My bike runs great here even when the temps are over 100 and there is nothing better than 91 octane at the pump due to the elevation. When I had it in Ohio on vacation and it was 85+ with all that humidity, it would ping under any load even running 94 Sunoco. Davo, I can second the water mist option to remove carbon. Back in my single days, my old roommate and I built up a Turbo Eclipse GSX for drag racing. We put water injection on it to help with the high intake temps from the monster turbo. We ran some high 11's in the car before blowing a head gasket. The motor was all stock except for the intake and exhaust mods we made and had about 60k miles on it when we started. After the head gasket, we pulled the motor apart and rebuilt it truly for racing and the pistons looked as clean as the brand new ones we put in it. We started disassembling everything on the intake to find it was all shiny and spotless like new anywhere after the water injection nozzle. I thought it was crazy to inject water into the engine at first, but the results showed it was well worth the initial trouble to get it going. It might be worth your time to try it. | ||
| Davo |
Jmhimkle, Interesting altitude comparison. As soon as I get my ECM installed and a 12mm adapter for my compression tester I will check the numbers. I agree with the value of water injection. I had 2.3L Pinto with a 4bbl 390 Holley and Edelbrock electronic water injection. The red line was way up there! Unfortunately the EGR won out as the anti ping device on street vehicles but the EGRs are much better now with fuel injection. In the 70's and 80's they would always clog up. H20 would have been better but PR was a problem as well as having to put alcohol in the water in order to prevent freezing in winter. | ||
| Teeps |
Count my Ulysses in on the ping club. Mine has the '07 airbox and '07 ECM Flash. It does not ping "that bad", as I can't hear it ping when wearing ear plugs. | ||
| Davo |
When I talk to representatives at HD/Buell dealerships and Buell customer service, they insist that the problem is not wide spread. It is my opinion that there are a significant number of people on this board alone with a pinging problem; enough to attract factory concern. It is important that Uly owners, with even minor pinging, contact Buell and make the problem apparent. | ||
| Justin_case |
Has anyone tried a thicker head gasket? | ||
| Teeps |
Until such time there is wide spread engine damage; caused by ("excess")pining; repaired under warranty, and it generates an abnormal blip on the warranty expense "meter." Or, it is determined that the pining problem violates EPA missions compliance. Determined by whom or how, I don't know. Expect no answers from Buell/H-D. Modified bikes need not apply either, would be my guess too. | ||
| Davo |
Teeps, Understood, but I wish I knew about this issue prior to purchase. I would not have purchased the Uly knowing what I know now. I realize that there are many satisfied Buell owners but I am not one of them and I work on bikes all the time. If I were dealer dependent, I would have sold it months ago. There have been many dealer techs that have been very helpful but I think the problem is engineered into the bike, but I may be wrong. I am giving it one more shot. | ||
| Teeps |
Maybe this is the answer to the ping: http://www.elektro.com/~audi/toluene/ My only concern would be the 02 sensor. | ||
| Teeps |
Or, maybe the answer is ride it like you hate it and let the pining take its toll... | ||
| Scooter808484 |
Teeps, The only problem with that is that the pinging might not break the motor immediately, but hammer the bottom end, weakening rod ends until they break, say 3 months after the warranty expires. Mine does it like one of the guys described above, strong throttle roll on, not WOT, starting at 3000 rpm. Mine is not particularly severe, but it bugs me. My AFV is running at 104 at sea level, so I might try testing for an intake leak or replacing seals at next opportunity. I'm moving to Washington, is there a dealer that might help in the Seattle area? | ||
| Davo |
Scooter808484, At 3000 rpm and Tps 9-11 the spark timing is 62 degrees when the engine is at operating temperature. The built in advance is at least 7.5 degrees so the total advance on the engine is actually close to 70 degrees at 3K! When you roll on the advance drops off at least ten degrees but there is a lean moment when the throttle opens and the combustion chambers are verrrrry hot after the extreme advance during the previous cruising parameters, | ||
| Teeps |
Scooter808484 Posted on Monday, January 08, 2007 Teeps, The only problem with that is that the pinging might not break the motor immediately, but hammer the bottom end, weakening rod ends until they break, say 3 months after the warranty expires. Of course "anything is possible" but I doubt the bottom end would fail from the kind of pining the Ulysses has. Maybe break a piece off a piston. Any failure would be bad regardless of what it is... | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hi Davo, If I am cruising along in 3rd or 4th gear at 3500rpm (with a warmed up engine) I can roll on the throttle and the bike will ping 100% of the time. It is not momentary either. I'll have to get more scientific but it pings until well into the 4k+ rpm range. This happens all the time if the engine is warmed up. No pinging at all with a cold engine. I don't accept the "CA fuel is poor" argument. Buell knows what kind of gas is distributed in CA and CA is one of the largest markets for motorcycles in the country - if not the largest. It is their job to get it right. My 11 year old FI Ford Explorer doesn't ping nor do any of our other FI vehicles. I think my 24 month warranty will be long gone before any damage from pinging would be evident. Having already been "pooh-poohed" by a dealer once regarding this issue I am, you might say, skeptical. I hope one of our aftermarket Buell guys comes up with something. If it was an intake leak I would think the problem would exist all the time, not just under specific circumstances. Again, even with a warm engine my bike will not ping if I simply "hammer" the throttle all the way rapidly. But it's not always possible to ride that way. If I really thought there would be no long term damage I could learn to ignore it - but I shouldn't have to. | ||
| Scooter808484 |
Intake leaks... since the problem is more than transient, ie it pings as long as I stay under those conditions, and since under load the manifold pressure actually increases, meaning there is less vacuum, I suspect that the intake leak isn't the real culprit either. Has anybody had this problem with an aftermarket exhaust? Especially something like a Drummer or Spec Ops that has a fair amount of pop in that 3000-4000 range? The reason I ask, and bear with me here, is that in my experience with those "other" 45 degree single crankpin V-twins, I had a very, very similar ping. Even sounded exactly the same. The funny thing was, the Delphi ECM, with ion detonation sensing, would not detect it as detonation. It would see other pinging, but not under these conditions. The other funny thing was that the pinging was right where the engine had a torque dip, primarily induced by the exhaust. Poor scavenging, reversion, contamination of the intake charge, all that good stuff. Since I had access to the spark tables I could make it go away, but once I changed to an exhaust with a "flatter torque" profile, the problem went away. (Wasn't really as simple as that, a head change and a couple of cam changes, but I think it could have been as simple as that, had I been less stupid.) This doesn't change the fact that a stock bike should not ping, but if one were inclined to make such a change, would it help? | ||
| Redrider |
Hello, I saw this post and I wanted to put in my two cents worth. I have a 2003 XB9 that has been a good bike. My brother bought a new 2005 XB12. From day one he had problems with pinging. This problem is more wide spread than Buell is letting on. After trying different pump gases, racing gas, fuel additives, the bike spent over 90 days in the shop the first summer while the techs tried to resolve this issue. They replaced the complete intake system, reset the timing and the tps numerous times and couldn't stop the pinging. The dealer brought in a regional tech from Buell and he said he couldn't hear the problem after riding the bike for 90 minutes. The problem was so noticeable that when I rode next to him I could hear the pinging. After that day the dealer's techs couldn’t hear the problem and refused to take any action to try and fix the ping. My brother filed a claim under the lemon law and the dealer bought the bike back and it is currently for sale in my area. It was our opinion that to have an engine ping this badly straight from the dealer is unacceptable. This is a very low performance engine (compared to Japanese bikes) that this shouldn't be happening period. You shouldn't have to buy after market parts to solve a manufacturing defect. This is 2007 not 1972. If I had this problem I would keep taking it back to the dealer for repair and I would investigate the rules of the Lemon Laws in your state. This problem is totally unacceptable! I live in Maryland and there are no fees for filing a Lemon Law case. My brother won his case so I would be looking hard into the Lemon Law option because he had the same problem you all are having and Buell has chose not to fix it. Good luck. | ||
| Teeps |
Scooter808484, I have a "self modified" stock XB12S muffler on my bike and it has the same characteristic ping as others, or so it seems. Muffler mod: removed the interactive valve. removed the inner exhaust tubes. installed 18" glass pack (cherry bomb)muffler. closed the stock can to appear as stock. | ||
| Jim_sb |
I will reiterate...... I really like my Ulysses. I have had great fun riding it and although it is not perfect it has been the best bike (for my desires) that I have ever owned. It would be nice if I had a Manifold Pressure gauge and a data gathering device that measured MP as well as throttle position opening. It is my belief that it would show that under conditions of relatively high MP (let's guess 24" or more but less than WOT pressure of say 29") with less than WOT is where the bike pings all the time. I really believe it is because of the fuel/timing map programmed into the unit. An intake leak should be leaking all the time, not just under specific conditions. The "extra rich" settings when the bike is cold is why I never have pinging under those conditions. The "extra rich" settings at WOT is why the pinging immediately stops when I snap the throttle wide open. As for why this occurs on some bikes and not others it could be: 1. Static timing on my bike is improperly set - I will check it. 2. Something is wrong with one of my sensors? 3. Something is wrong with my ECU? I read and understand about the high pressure issue but honestly there is no way a new bike should have that much build up in the cylinders. I am going to try to get it fixed by the dealer that sold me the bike. I am not interested in any lemon law discussions. I've probably owned the bike too long already anyway. I would be more likely to sell the bike, lick my wounds and not buy another bike from that manufacturer again. I do think the motor is TIGHTLY packaged in the frame - and it gets mighty warm in there and this issue is likely a result of having a tightly packaged air cooled motor running hot. Eventually if I cannot resolve the issue I will probably keep an eye on the forthcoming BMW 800GS bike. We'll see. I would prefer to keep what I have and have it not ping so darn much. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Not to be a wise acre, but is it possible that some of the pinging issues are due to mismanagement of the torque curve/characteristics with the clutch/throttle/gearbox during certain running parameters? Just a thought. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Yes, that's it! Mismanagement!!! Silly me trying to accelerate in 3rd gear at 3500rpm. What was I thinking? Hmmm.... I dunno. Maybe that this is my 2nd Buell and my 3rd HD made motorcycle with a Sportster motor? And this one has the all new gee-whiz super-duper Fuel Injection and it's the only one that pings? If that's mismanagement then I am guilty as charged. If I wanted a bike I would have to shift every time I wanted to accelerate I would not endeavor to purchase a "torquey" V-Twin.  Best, Jim in Santa Barbara Mismanaging Motorcycles As Often As Possible | ||
| Davo |
Jim sb, Just retard the timing until it stops pinging and/or use HD fuel additive. I have been running late for almost 5000 miles! The heat generated by late timing at idle is much less destructive than pinging under load. The rest of the timing curve is fine being as much as 9 degrees late. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Just a question, not a flame- I've seen it plenty of times and with people who have "owned lots of Harleys". Third or fourth gear at 3500 should not be an issue- 2500 in fifth on a hot day with a passenger might be. I also find that the XBs make considerable more mechanical noise at running temp than any of my tubers ever have. If you have the stock muffler is the valve working properly? I don't mean "no trouble codes", I mean is it working correctly. Just trying to think out of the box- we've only seen a couple of bikes with the ping and resetting the timing to spec cured the issue. Hopefully the factory is paying attention to this thread. | ||
| Thin |
guys I've had this very problem that you all are referring to on a 04 xb 12 firebolt. Let begin by saying I loved everything about my bike until this problem occurred. This was my second buell, I had a xb 9 that my brother has now and has about 15000 miles on it and never had a problem with. It started happening at about 4000 miles. The dealer did numerous diagnostics on the bike. They replaced the complete fuel system, and sensors and reset the tps numerous times. Over the course of the problem my bike spent over 100 days in the shop. This was over a 6 month period. The dealer ship recognized the problem and did everything they could to fix the problem. The actually fixed it for a couple months and it returned again. The regional service manager came to help out but knew as much about and combustion engines as a two year old. It was funny because he came to the dealership and then they gave up and started telling me it was normal. Needless to say they did buy the bike back from me....which I'm very happy about. I talked to other dealer ships and they said they did see the same problems on some xb 12's. I can say this when my bike was made there were parts that were bad that the techs at the buell factory knew about....one was the throttle body. It had air leaks. They told the service manager when he gave them the vin number. Search this website and you will find older post with people with this problem and I was one of them. Stick by you guns and don't take it's normal for and answer. Don't rule out getting an attorney to help you. It was really frustrating but worked out for me in the end. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hello Murrae, I don't feel flamed - nor was I flaming back. No worries. I too hope the factory is paying attention. I spoke with a friend who is a former Buell employee and he recommended "downshifting". But he was polite. I don't ride 2 up. I don't ride at 2500rpm unless I'm coasting down the mountain (zero throttle type situation). I would consider using throttle at 2500rpm to be borderline lugging the engine and I don't like to do that. My basic operating range is 3k - 6k rpm. If the bike is cold say 2800 - 3800rpm with cruising around 3000rpm until the engine is warmed up. I will check the muffler but I suspect it's just peachy because when I hammer the throttle wide open - even at 3500rpm - the bike just takes off and pulls hard with zero pinging. The ping only occurs with modest acceleration. I need to check some things I guess. I could run fuel additive but that just costs me money that I shouldn't have to spend. I'm already buying premium fuel. That should be enough IMHO. BTW, if I ride in "cruiser mode" all day no pinging to speak of there either. It's just at those in between settings - faster than cruiser but slower than full throttle where I get the ping. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Blake |
Jim, That king of ping under modest acceleration is indicative of an intake seal air leak. | ||
| Jim_sb |
Okay Blake. That is the first place I will look. I'm not going to do it this week though because I'm riding dirt bikes in the desert! Yes!  Best, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Murraebueller |
Jim- No worries here either- I just know how frustrating it can be, especially when there seem to be many more bikes out here without the issue. 3K to redline should be OK anytime. Maybe we're back to a throttle body/injector issue- we had several bikes here with that issue as well. The tuning on these bikes seems to be so specific that any small glitch or combination might cause an issue. | ||
| Davo |
Murrae, Have you ran into any throttle bodies that had leaks or is the problem with the injectors? | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- As far as I can remember it was just the throttle bodies. We replaced the injectors with one throttle body just to be sure- the customer was from far away and we wanted to cover all the bases. The run issues involved stalling, hard starting and pinging. Much like and intake leak. |
