| Author | Message | ||
     Unibear12r |
Best Wishes to All !!!! P.S. Anyone seen FB&D lately ??????    | ||
| Hotdog271 |
Hi everyone, I am in the market to by a Buell and wanted to know if anyone could help me in my decision. I own a Harley now, and have had one since 2003. Before that I had a Kawi, ninja. The two bikes I like are either the Lightning long, or City Cross. I am 6 foot 1 inch, and 235lbs. I know the basics of both bikes and have ridden an XB 9 before. Is the handling and comfort that much better on the Long, or is it barely noticed? Thanks for your help. | ||
| Tdiddy |
Hotdog, I have the long and got to ride the City Cross while my Ss was in the shop. I'm 6'3",235lbs. The first thing I noticed, while just sitting on the City Cross is how much taller the seat is. To me, it felt like sitting on a dirt bike. I liked that. While riding the Ss, with the active muffler the tone changes as you get on it. The power always seems to be right there. The City Cross didn't seem to have the same punch but will still launch hard, good power, just not as much as the 1200. As for handling, once the suspension is set for you, they both handle razor sharp. I thought being as tall as I am, I needed the extra lenght, but the Cross proved I didn't. For me, the biggest difference is power delivery. The 9 is really good but the 12 can really burn up your rear tire. I prefer my Ss. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Anybody sit on a TT yet? Looks lower in pics than it actually is. Only about 3/4" lower than a Uly. | ||
| Jayvee |
Sat on one at the Cycle World show in San Mateo, CA. They didn't have any available for test drives, so I rode a Long. The TT feels right between the Lightning and the Uly. For me, I would change the bars to the Uly bars. With the new low seat on the Uly, it's pretty close between them. I still like my M2, neither the Uly nor TT is really any better. Just different. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"In case you guys missed this. . . Governor Doyle Announces $4.5 Million for Harley-Davidson to Expand in Wisconsin Tax Credits Tied to 200 New Jobs, Retention of 4,100 Jobs" Court, What a lot of HD employees hate about this is that they had to take concessions on health care and 401k in order for this expansion to happen. When it was first proposed, the Union rejected it 3-1, how it passed another vote is beyond me and alot of folks think that HD twisted some union arms to get those employee concessions. Harley is the largest company, profit-wise, in Wisconsin, why taxpayers and employees have to give them money is beyond a lot people's thinking. | ||
| Court |
John: Welcome to Badweb. I knew it has been approved, I didn't know the details. I'll be eager to learn more. As with many of these things there will doubtless be a good deal of "scuttlebutt" and urgan legend. If you get any articles or information, I'd like to see them. My initial reaction is that, even with some concessions, it may be a good thing. Most the people who will complain have not seen the huge new Harley facility in Bejing. Anything that will protect jobs and give the folks in Wisconsin an "in", is a good thing. Thanks for the "heads up" and welcome. Court | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Thanks man, I like the site, people seem cool. The main thing folks need to understand is that this expansion isn't protecting current employee's jobs, it's creating new ones. I live and work less than 5 minutes from the Motor plant in the Falls, I also have some close friends who work at HD, if I hear anything more, I'll let you know. | ||
| Bads1 |
Harley is the largest company profit wise in Wisconsin??? Johnson Wax my friend | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Then maybe JW should be giving HD money instead of us Taxpayers. | ||
| Blake |
Tax concessions offered by states and municipalities are nothing new. They are VERY common in the very competitive bidding to attract new business and more jobs to an area. | ||
| Blake |
So don't be angry at H-D for seeking such concessions, be angry at your government representatives for providing them. It's all on them. They may be looking out for the prosperity of the state/municipality, or they may be lining their pockets. Who knows? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I'm not angry, I'm concerned that companies, like HD, who have the money to expand don't need our help in doing so. HD is getting more than just tax breaks from Wisconsin. | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . the actual agreement has "tax credits", not tax breaks. There is a significnat difference. The credits are tied to new job production and based on 200 jobs. In other words, if Harley-Davidson expands they can earn a credit for each new worker. Now bear in mind that each NEW worker provides LOTS of tax revenue for the state. For instance, Spiderman will soon be graduating from college and let's say he moves to Brookfield. The moment he sets foot in the state he'll be paying property tax, highway taxes, gas taxes, sales taxes at Hooters and all sorts of things. He';; be buying beer which will create jobs in the stop-n-go. If Harley hires him, they get a TAX CREDIT. The net amount, what Spidey AND H-D combined, pay to the state may be a bit diminished but the overall take to the state is very postive. This, by the way, is the reasons states do this. I've called 3 of the union folks at Capital Drive tonight and the ones I'm talking to aren't aware of any arm twisting and see this as a very win-win deal. Not that if H-D should not MAINTAIN the existing jobs, all bets are off. Pretty good deal for the state if motorcycle sales slump a bit. I think someone perhaps snookered you on the info they gave you . . . | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
If it was Win, Win, why did it get shot down on the first vote? Badly. The folks I spoke with at HD, all union, were worried that this was an effort to break union wages...which it did, for all of these new employees. It also managed to decrease how much current employees are receiving in bene's. The kicker with new jobs is this. Our unemployment rate isn't that high here, so odds are the people who fill these spots will probably be working already and leave their current job for new ones. They're already contributing to the tax base. How many out of staters is this expansion going to bring..200 jobs? maybe 5%? | ||
| Blake |
Why do people who may be confused about an issue change their mind once they have a clearer grasp of it? So talk to your government reps. After reading Court's most excellent explanation, I don't understand your gripe. Would you be complaining if the new plant and jobs had gone somewhere else? Isn't H-D rated as one of the very best companies to work for in America? | ||
| Pammy |
I bet there's a lot of folks in Michigan and, for the same matter, the state itself that would like for a few companies, such as HD, to move on in and take advantage of them in the same way. | ||
| Court |
There's a pretty good reason that Harley-Davidson CHOSE to move a large amount of production to Kansas City. Think of it. . . why would you, if you really had essentially unlimited labor resources at your beck and call in MKE, move such a significant amount of manufacturing 990 miles to the West? We are in a great and interesting time in American business at the moment. Technology is advancing at a rate few can truly appreciate and, for the first time in history, we have 4 generations of Americans working shoulder to shoulder in the workplace. I've written and studied fairly extensively on the implications and opportunism. Harley-Davidson and Buell didn't get where they are simply taking a laissez-faire attitude of hoping for the best and saying "whatever" . . . they are PLANIING for the future in a very strategic way. One of Harley-Davidson's great strengths is that there are a group of folks there who have started commercial demise in the eye. My good friend Rich Teerlink would have been in bankruptcy court that final day when the last financing deal collapsed if HD folks thought like everyone else. Generally, in the history of organizes labor, there is a segment of the less read population who assume anything appearing to be good for the company is bad for labor. I, during I.B.E.W. negotiations one year, challenged a party across the table . . . "tell me ONE thing, just one, that is good for me and bad for you". After that we progressed swimmingly to a good deal. In addition, I'm fairly familiar (my first undergrad degree had a minor in Law and Legislation and I tutored law students for 2 years) with the Wagner Act and NLRA. I'd suggest, after reading the "arm twisting" assertion that you carefully read the rather all inclusive provisions of Section 8(a)(1) as it relates to acts by employers with regard to employees exercise of Section 7 rights. Me? . . . well, I'm not the brightest bulb in the world . . so I always go back to "T.I.P.S." . . "Threaten, Intimidate, Prohibit and Spy" to recall the board list of acts prohibited by employers. Frankly my 29 posts on your first day friend, your "arm twisting" statement looks like beer talk. I'm having a tough time seeing a company, voted BY IT'S EMPLOYEES, as one of the BEST companies in America to work for as laying it all on the line for a sum of money that is less than Monday morning pre-noon t-shirt sales. I'm not buying it. Court P.S. - Just to prove to you that I'm not just a "Pro-Harley" guy, I also feel quite certain that 15 years from now there will be less than 250 people working in Milwaukee for Harley-Davidson. Remind me to tell you that story someday. . . | ||
| Reepicheep |
Say men with guns come to my house once a year and take 50% of my stuff. After 10 years of this, and after finding out that if I move across the river that men with guns will only take 10% of my stuff every year, I decide to move. When my local men with guns find this out, they then tell me they will only take 20% of my stuff every year if I stay. Who, exactly, is robbing whom? (I know this is an oversimplification to the other extreme) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Frankly my 29 posts on your first day friend, your "arm twisting" statement looks like beer talk." Oh really? So the original proposal, which was EXACTLY the same one proposed again was shot down almost 3-1, BY THE EMPLOYEES, then out of the blue it passes 3-1? Looks to me, and to some employees, that just may have happend. So I have 29 posts in a day? Who the hell cares? Other than you of course. | ||
| Court |
I'd suggest you take a toke of some Richard Scammon's and Ben Wattenburg's The Real Majority. I know LOTS of folks at Harley-Davidson and am struggling to pick 3 names of folks I think could be "bought" or intimidated. You want me to believe that over 50% were "arm twisted" into voting against their conscious and personal interests. Kinda runs counter with the entire HD image, eh? | ||
| Ccryder |
John, you seem to be loosing your feeling you stated before: "Thanks man, I like the site, people seem cool." Please just try and keep things in perspective. This topic seems to be heading into a black-hole. Let's get back into Buell specific discussions so we can learn and enjoy what this site is really about (just my $0.02). How about...... my contact patch is bigger than your's!!!!!! Hmmm, Blake is it time to move this offf of GDB and into a sub-topic? Time2Work Neil S. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Well, lets look at the first vote...the REAL vote. That same majority was a minority wasn't it? | ||
| Court |
Well. . . I'll end it by saying that you and I obviously have VERY DIFFERENT friends at PDC. Mine would be pretty tough to muscle. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Maybe the Tooth Fairy came down after the first vote and gave everybody quarter? | ||
| Davegess |
The propsal that was accepted was different that the proposal that was accepted. different enough to chnage some peoples minds. I'm an old, very old, union guy. Been a card carrying member of the Steel Workers, amoung others. I gotta say the deal that HD offered was very fair. Employees have to pay more for health care. That simply has to happen. Until we as a nation figure out how to make the health car system work companies will need to rein in their health care cost or end up like GM, slipping down hill os fast they don't really have any idea what ot do. Is HD making money? Sure thing. Keep it up. Should Wisconsin give them a temproary tax incentive to grow here? I can't see any reason why not. More jobs, more taxes paid by the company and the workers. Should the union make some concessions to make their members jobs more secure? Yes, is that not what they do? Their are no job guarantees in the contract, so what? Those are worthless anyway. The only guarantee is a growing profitable company that has good relations with its employees. GM has all sorts of guarantees, they won't do you any good when the go bankrupt. | ||
| Rainman |
Hi folks, I've got three Canadian pennies to throw in. As a news reporter for 30 years and in six different states, I've heard both sides of the argument presented dozens of times. Since the tax credit/break thing became so big in Michigan in the 1980s to keep the car industry in check and a big deal in the South to draw industry in to increase employment, the same discussions are being held monthly in county commissioner and city council chambers across the country. Both arguments work in theory according to your political/economic beliefs but reality is this is how it works. Competition for corporations is huge. My old home town of Lansing Michigan gave special industrial revenue bonds, tax credits, tax breaks, tax incentives and other benefits to General Motors/Oldsmobile only to have Oldsmobile be killed as a brand and GM to almost vacate the area all together. I'm sure Wisconsin knew that Virginia, North Carolina and Mississippi would grant lots of breaks and credits and caved in. They all do. Reality doesn't make it right. It just makes it the way it is. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I know this, no matter what, who or how, I'm glad HD employees didn't lose jobs, If the majority of employees at HD are happy, who am I not to be happy for them? who knows? Your next HD motor may be made by yours truely thanks to the vote! | ||
| Swordsman |
Here's a general discussion for ya: how the heck do you steer this abomination? (notice the fuel lines running down from the tank... talk about top heavy!)  ~SM | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
The car pulling it speeds up around the curves? |
