| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
I don't see why you have to keep ramming the truth down our throats Blake. Especially when it is only part of the truth. I've followed the whole Buell racing fiasco as much as anyone to see the real truth now it is needed is the clever manipulation of two stories. Now that the race program is not happening for 2007 you seem hell bent on perpetrating that there was only ever one story. You're only setting yourself up as the fall guy in this play. Frankly I couldn't give a toss if Buell never race again. They haven't earned my support by giving me anything to cheer about. But what gets me is why you have to go out on a limb in support of only one side of the real events that occurred when all it does is show what a bull headed fool you are. All it does is prove that not only can you not be objectionable about your political and religious beliefs in other threads, you also apply the same false logic in your support of Buell. Just because you run the best Internet Buell forum on the planet doesn't mean you're obliged to support every damn thing Buell do. Especially when they purposely mislead those reading here to start with. You need to open your mind and realise how stupid you sound, and maybe it takes a friend to tell you this. Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
I don't get it Matt. You are a pro-Buell fan, no? Come on and enjoy the successes when we can get 'em! I am a 150% Buell race fan Blake, which is why it really pisses me off that Buell are resorting to half truths and PR speak regarding the XBRR project. I was as keen and fired up as the next man when the project was announced, and looked forward to seeing the bike compete at the top level for more than a few one off rides in 2006. None have made their way to the UK so we won't see any race over here, and now we won't see them on TV either because they aren't racing in AMA. I (and plenty of others) wouldn't be half as disapointed if the bike hadn't been hyped so much at the launch. We were given to expect a lot more than was delivered by the factory and although it was not announced as a full on factory team it was certainly implied on a number of occasions. Compare this to the Moto Guzzi MGS01, which is the only real comparison to the XBRR in concept, in that you can buy a ready to race big bore V-Twin direct from the factory. This bike has quietly got on with the job without huge hype and fanfare, and has won a lot of races (including at Daytona and a lot in Europe) and a lot of fans along the way. My point is that if the factory want to talk the big talk then they had better be prepared to walk the walk too. | ||
| Steve_a |
The MGS01 win at Daytona occurred after I had Jeremy pull his XBRR out on the last lap, per the earlier request of the AHRMA race director, who didn't want us trouncing his club members when we were there for testing. At that point, McWilliams was the full front straight ahead, and had been pulling away at four-to-five seconds a lap from the 999R and the MGS01 who had been fighting for 2nd place. I would never make a similar decision again, after seeing Moto Guzzi advertise this as defeating a Buell XBRR, and seeing Trojan cite this as a Moto Guzzi achievement. There is no air-cooled Twin on the planet that can run with an XBRR. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
"There is no air-cooled Twin on the planet that can run with an XBRR."   | ||
| Trojan |
Steve, The Guzzi win at Daytona is just one of the wins that they have had last year with the MGS01, but your reply highlights the difference between public perception and fact. The public saw the Guzzi take a win and the Buell retire. Regardless of reasoning behind it that is what people saw happen. The biggest single diffeence between the two bikes is the fact that so much was expected of the Buell because of the hype from Erik and from the factory at the launch. It was touted as a competitive racer for privateers in the FX class, and it has not achieved that goal. The Guzzi was never hyped as a competitive FX class racer, but as a limited edition track bike that people could race wherever the fancy took them and so is seen as a greater success because of it. Less is more  There have obviously been credible reasons for the apparent lack of success of the XBRR, but the public are not privy to any of this. Having hyped up the bike at the launch it was unfortunately almost inevitable that it wouldn't live up to the hype poored on it. Consequently the opinion of the public at large, and of plenty of racers and journalists that I have spoken to, is that the XBRR has been a failure and has joined the less than illustrious ranks of race bikes that didn't quite make it, such as the VR1000, Bimota Tesi and Honda NR500. Believe me, I am absolutely passionate about Buell and Buell racing, which is why this whole episode hurts so much. IN my opinion, the XBRR fiasco has done more to damage the reputation of Buell (certainly here in Europe) than anything since the recalls of the mid 90's. That isn't because it is a bad bike, but that the publicity has been badly handled. | ||
| Trojan |
"There is no air-cooled Twin on the planet that can run with an XBRR." Take a look at www.dynotec.de  There are also some very trick air cooled BMW racers in germany that would give the XBRR a run for its money I believe. | ||
| Court |
That's not an entirely accurate statement. . . what some would read as hype many of us saw, and see, as genuine unbridled enthusiasm. Buell had it's roots in racing, it's what moved Erik Buell to reject a far better paying job in the aerospace industry when he graduated from engineering school. There's not an account that lacks the words "left Harley-Davidson to pursue his dream of building an American racing motorcycle". When the resources were allocated for the XBRR program and folks like Steve were brought on board, you can surely appreciate that some of us who'd seen the folks at Buell scrape and beg for years were very enthusiastic. I make no apologies if Moto Guzzi doesn't have within their ranks such enthusiastic owners. I'd also submit that the XBRR, with all the disappointments, achieved more it's first year than any Britten or VR-1000 ever aspired to. I appreciate the fact that that statement, too, will be subject to the "where you were mentally standing" spin. That's fine with me and does nothing to diminish my enthusiasm.
Unfortunately, I have to give you that one. There are some awfully nice folks, with their hearts in the right place who failed in this regard. I, personally, think they did a wonderful job and were the victims of a combination of withheld resources sprinkled with a bit of sabotage. There are folks, within the H-D ranks, who are committed, in an effort to not draw attention to their own failures with the VR-1000, to seeing Buell fall short of it's lofty goals. I know you are a genuine race fan so I'll share a secret with you . . . . I have never seen Erik Buell lower his standards or give up and walk away from anything. As long as folks like Henry Duga and Steve Anderson are within the ranks, there WILL be Buell Racing. The commercial reality of doing "X" number of projects with "Y" $$, at present, puts the race program on a back burner. . . it does not extinguish it. Some folks at Harley-Dvaidson have been wishing I'd go away since 1994. Just my opinion. . . Court | ||
| Slaughter |
The level of support for the Club Racer at Buell is amazing. I NEVER got the support from Suzuki - dealer OR anywhere else that I can get just by picking up the phone or tossing out an email. Part of the reason I sold the Suzuki and still race the Buell. It's hard to put into words the emotions of the key players involved in Buell racing but they ARE enthusiasts. Fun group of folks. I'll be on the phone today wasting some more of their time as I try to sort out a motor with a new top end (giant valves, new porting) and now a weird "hole" in power in mid-range. On the SV - I could get some good advice from fellow racers, the stock response from Suzuki was "we don't do that - call the dealer, you've got non-factory parts - we're sure they can tune it for you." Of course there was the Suzuki cup - but I was NEVER a contender. For a "little guy" pretending to be a racer, the level of support is WAY out of proportion to what I give back to Buell in the way of publicity. Here's hoping I don't embarrass them too badly with my return to racing in 2 weeks after a couple years away. (yes, we DO race 12 months out of the year here) | ||
| Trojan |
Hi Court I do not doubt the unbridled enthusiasm of anyone involved in the XBRR project, from Erik right down to the lowest menber of any of the teams involved, and I know that they must be a hundred times more disapointed than any of us could ever be with the results so far and the apparent lack of support from H-D. Most people that frequent this board are more aware of the thinking and politics behind the XBRR project than those with only a passing interest in Buells, but we are a very small minority and it is these other 'non Buelling' people who make up the majority of the motorcycling public. They will form their decisions on the headlines they read and the results that they see, not the underlying stories behind these headlines. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: The whole premise of the thread, that Buell made a full season factory effort in AMA FX last year but has dropped out for 2007 is horribly false. There was no full season effort last year, no factory team, and so the premise is false. People are funny. It appears that the whole premise of your post is based on the false premise that the whole premise of this thread was that Buell made a full season factory effort in AMA FX last year. Blake is people too.  I don't recall anybody saying that in this thread, but I could be wrong. It certainly wasn't in the title. BTW, --hor“ri·bly adv. 1. Arousing or tending to arouse horror; dreadful: “War is beyond all words horrible” (Winston S. Churchill). I am not sure that your choice of that adverb accurately depicts the relative significance of this situation. Hey, if I am going to call Rocket on his over dramatizations, then I have to be fair regarding yours too. jimidan | ||
| Davegess |
"They will form their decisions on the headlines they read and the results that they see, not the underlying stories behind these headlines." Matt, yes they will and at this point it is out of Buell's control. The plan A did not work, the fallout is the fallout. Life goes on Buell will continue to support racers. You are correct, our disapointment pales in comparison to that in East Troy. | ||
| Court |
Matt: Well stated and I appreciate the insight folks like you and Steve Slaughter bring from a racers standpoint. I still, after all these years, stand in awe of DaveG's ability to articulate the mental climate at Buell. How a guy this quite and composed does it. . . I have no idea. Someday before I die . . I dream of Dave Gess getting so ticked off he starts screamin', yellin' and kickin' chairs. . . Nah. . . won't happen. | ||
| Rubberdown |
O.k., it's a new year and a new season of racing is upon us. There are many race series and types of racing. Buells will be racing. GO BUELL RACING!!! I also am going racing, not on a Buell, but I'm entered in this: http://sandblastrally.com/2007/ on this:   | ||
| Jeffnights |
You know, I get really sick of hearing again and again how "horrible" the VR1000 was. Yes it did not live up to expectations, yes it was not a top contender. But dammit, saying that the XBRR did more in its first season than the VR1000 ever did in its lifetime is just plain WRONG. Did the XBRR ever take a top-5 finish in its premier class(FX) Did the XBRR ever take a pole? The VR1000 did both of these, so please stop the hate. And besides, its primarily because of the Vr1000 that the beautiful Harley StreetRod sits in my garage. I'm not against the XBRR in any way, i want one for the street, however, this post is just a rant against all this negative VR1000 crap. Focus on the present. | ||
| Court |
How do you think the two, the VROD and the VR-1000, are related. I am unaware, beyond the fact that they both are water cooled of ANY relationship. Court | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
VR developement was not born from Buell racing. I'd love to have either a rr1000 or rr1200 for the garage though. Gorgeous bikes. I believe there's a rr1200 for sale in Franklin, WI for 12.5k.   (Message edited by Buellinachinashop on January 07, 2007) | ||
| Jeffnights |
"""$12,000,000 How do you think the two, the VROD and the VR-1000, are related. I am unaware, beyond the fact that they both are water cooled of ANY relationship. Court"""" I am speaking of the engine, Willie G. Says directly in his book "100 years of Harley-Davidson", that the Revo motor came from the VR1000, I will take his word for it. | ||
| Anonymous |
Actually, VR development was born from Buell racing, but unfortunately turned away. That will be a fun chapter in the book. The budget differences between VR and XBRR are not 1 but nearly 2 orders of magnitude, by the way. | ||
| Court |
Wille G ever get arrested riding one? | ||
| Anonymous |
No, but I did, didn't I? Let's see, the date of that ticket should be around here somewhere. Hmm, that would be interesting to compare with the V-Rod historical dates wouldn't it? So, is the ticket an insert for the book, or did they shred that sucker when I paid my way out of it?! 200 dollars for each ten over the speed limit adds up fast at the speed I was running!!! Sigh. Well at least that bike was saved from the dumpster and is hidden away for posterity. | ||
| Court |
>>>is hidden away Not well enough . . . Nice, I mean really nice American kids, are still burdend with guilt over giving up the "big bass in the pond" (I'm quoting Officer McClellen here) in consideration for keeping the bike. This chapter, bear in mind, has ominously familiar similarities to the day I tried to ride Barny through East Troy and the local PD wouldn't allow more than 25' between the Crown Vic and my carbon fiber inner fender. . . they'd made the mistake of llosing that race too many times and when they saw that S-1 this time. . . they were gonna snag the net. As good luck, in concert with good fortune go, I. . . ever the moral compass of Buell. . . had committed no crime and was simply escorted to the edge of town with a friendly wave. Dave Gess tells the story best. . . his, I'm fairly certain, will end up being the "official" version. . . our poor little innocent R&D test rider who came to recover the bike is too innocent to be drawn down into our lair. Hey . . . . since there is so much controversary. . . maybe I'll claim credit for the VR? Nah, then I have to answer up for the 37 minute pit stop. Best film Miller and I ever DIDN'T appear in. . . Harleywood was there filming. . I was standing with Miller. The minute I saw what was happening, it seemed like a great place NOT to have your picture upon returning to the office next Monday. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, "The biggest single difference between the two bikes is the fact that so much was expected of the Buell because of the hype from Erik and from the factory at the launch." Can you point me to this "hype." To my recollection, all the hype was pretty much self-generated by us Buell enthusiasts, not the factory folks. In fact I recall them doing their best to play down their efforts. | ||
| Blake |
Seriously, the only "hype" I recall was that they all sold pretty much the first day they were offered up at the dealer show, yes? | ||
| Paint_shaker |
It was cool to see a Buell in the 200 last year. I had never been to a motorcycle race before last year, but knowing that a Buell (well, 4 actually) was running, I was drawn to be a spectator. It was exciting trying to keep up with how the Buells were running, even when there was just 1 Buell left in the race. At this point I remember it very well, I was directly across from McWilliams' pit when he pulled in. As the front end fell off the stand, so did my hopes of seeing a Buell place high in the finish order. But all was not lost that day as it was still exciting that Buell had a race bike, plus there was going to be a Buell gathering at VegasBueller's place. You may recall VegasBueller suffered an accident and the BBQ almost wasn't!!! It was a great BBQ and was nice to meet so many infamous badwebbers and Buell riders! Unfortunately, I had to leave before Mr. Buell himself showed up at the BBQ... There is another BBQ at Vegas' place this year. I plan to attend. But unless there is a Buell fielded in the 200, it is highly unlikely I will attend the race... Here's to someone stepping up and fielding an RR in the 200!!! Go Buell Racing!!! | ||
| Davegess |
Anon, somewhere I have a picture of your and Brooks Stevens with that bike. Probably have a date on it also. When we all retire we can have great fun writing the dam book! | ||
| Trojan |
Can you point me to this "hype." To my recollection, all the hype was pretty much self-generated by us Buell enthusiasts, not the factory folks. In fact I recall them doing their best to play down their efforts. Blake C'mon, the hype was everywhere. Even the Buell.com website was full of how the XBRR was made specifically to compete in FX. Erik gave interviews to pretty much every motorcycling publication in the world and a large proportion of the worlds press were at Daytona where more interviews were given and expectations raised (and then dashed). The self generated hype from Buell enthusiasts only came about because we were given to expect great things. As for all the bikes selling out straight away, I think you'll find there are still some left unsold, as I was offered a brand new one just before Christmas by Buell UK at GBP17,900 (US$34500). Nice to get a bit of discount isn't it! | ||
| Tpoppa |
Blake C'mon, the hype was everywhere. Even the Buell.com website was full of how the XBRR was made specifically to compete in FX. Erik gave interviews to pretty much every motorcycling publication in the world and a large proportion of the worlds press were at Daytona where more interviews were given and expectations raised (and then dashed). The self generated hype from Buell enthusiasts only came about because we were given to expect great things. That is how I remember it. | ||
| Elvis |
It seems a discussion like this can easily be backed up with facts. Anything that was published a year ago should still be available. Here's the release: EAST TROY, Wis. — (Monday, January 23, 2006) Erik Buell and company come full circle with the introduction of the 2007 Buell XBRR, a limited-edition production racing motorcycle designed exclusively for closed course competition. A spiritual successor to Buell’s first motorcycle, the 1983 RW750, the XBRR is poised to change the face of privateer racing with a professional-level, race-ready, production-based platform featuring top-shelf racing technology and typical Buell innovation. “The XBRR combines the current culmination of Buell’s leading edge chassis technology and Harley-Davidson’s air-cooled V-Twin powertrain development in a platform designed by and developed for dedicated racers,” said Erik Buell, Chairman and Chief Technical Officer, Buell Motorcycle Company. For Erik Buell, the XBRR marks a return to his racing roots. As a successful privateer road racer early in his career, Buell eventually built his own race bikes for the AMA’s then-premier Formula 1 class. The RW750 was a hand-built race bike, and it became the first official Buell motorcycle. Two were produced before the AMA discontinued the class after 1985. Buell then translated his race-bred design principles into a line of successful street bikes leading up to the current XB platform. The Buell XBRR features a modified XB Thunderstorm 1339cc (103.6mm bore x 79.4mm stroke) air/oil-cooled V-Twin motor rated at 150-hp (measured at the crankshaft). The engine is fed by a dual-downdraft 62mm throttle-body electronic fuel injection system and a ram-air intake system integrated with a new wind-tunnel developed carbon fiber fairing. The XBRR is the first production Buell since the 1988-89 RR1200 to feature a full fairing. Its lightweight carbon design integrates ducts for cooling of the engine and oil cooler. The fairing was extensively wind tunnel tested to improve aerodynamics and reduce drag. The XBRR chassis is the revolutionary XB design with fuel-in-the-frame and oil-in-the-swingarm, modified with a billet axle adjustment system and chain-drive to allow gearing changes for different race tracks. Suspension travel is managed by fully adjustable Ohlins units, with 43mm front forks and a remote-reservoir rear shock. A new ZTL2 (Zero Torsional Load) eight-piston front caliper grabs a standard XB front rotor providing outstanding braking performance, but with less weight than conventional designs. New XBRR six-spoke magnesium wheels weigh 33 percent less than standard XB wheels. Instruments include tachometer, indicator lamps for shift, power on and low oil pressure. The XBRR features a unique Buell Racing paint scheme. Buell XBRR features: * 1339cc (81.7 cid) Thunderstorm Powertrain: o 4.080 inch (103.6 mm) bore and 3.125 inch (79.4mm) stroke o 12.5:1 compression ratio o Dual 62 mm down-draft fuel-injection throttle bodies o WAVE-analyzed header and mass-centralized muffler o 150+ peak engine horsepower at 8000 rpm (per SAE J607) o 100 ft. lbs. peak engine torque at 6500 rpm (per SAE J607) * Black 6-Spoke Cast Magnesium Racing wheels: o Front: 3.5 inch (88.9mm) x 17 inch (431.8mm) wheel with 120/70R-17 tire o Rear: 5.5 inch (139.7mm) x 17 inch (431.8mm) wheel with 190/55R-17 tire * Buell ZTL2reversed rotor front brake with eight-piston Nissin caliper * Ram Air system integrated with full racing fairing * Carbon fiber bodywork * 43mm Ohlins adjustable front suspension with inverted forks * Ohlins fully-adjustable rear suspension with coil-over monoshock with remote reservoir * 55-degree lean angle (hard contact) * 30.5-inch (775 mm) seat height * 21-degree rake and 3.4-inch (86 mm) trail * Cast-aluminum swingarm with billet axle adjustment system o Center position wheelbase 52.8 inches (1341 mm) o Range wheelbase 51.8 - 53.8 inches (1315 mm - 1367 mm) * Buell Racing paint scheme * To accommodate eligibility in a wide variety of racing classes, an engine modification kit will be available to help conform the XBRR to a wide range of class regulations. Buell will produce 50 XBRR motorcycles with a short initial run in late February and the balance made in April. U.S. MSRP is $30,995. Sure the wording is a bit flowery, all press releases are, but I don't see any mention of Formula X-Treme. Granted there was a lot of talk of Formula X-Treme when they entered Daytona, but how much was in the initial hype? If that was the primary goal of the bike, shouldn't it have been mentioned in the release? We've got Buell's words, why don't we reference them. If anyone asserts that Buell made claims that weren't valid, where are those claims? | ||
| Davegess |
Matt, Erik got a bit excited. So did a lot of us. It sure seemed like FX was a doable deal. It didn't work. Nothing can be done to change it now. Getting HD to fund it because Buell cannot (IF that was even possible) would truly be a Faustian bargain. It is certainly past the time to let this go, we are in the world of "coulda, woulda, shoulda" and I am ready proclaim the horse dead. | ||
| Trojan |
This is from the original press release given by Buell to Roadracing World (amongst others) The Firebolt XB-RR is expected to produce over 150 horsepower and over 100 ft.-lbs. of torque at the crankshaft, to weigh approximately 362 pounds dry, to have its engine be durable enough to race an entire season with only routine maintenance and be versatile enough to race in several different classes from AMA Formula Xtreme to American Sportbike Racing Association (ASRA, formerly known as Formula USA) Thunderbike and several other club and endurance racing classes. Ther are a few points there that are seriously open to question. For a start, anyone who has raced even a modified stock XB will tell you that running a whole season with just 'routine maintenance' on a 150bhp Buell would be unlikely in the extreme, and, of all the classes mentioned the XBRR is/was not legal for any except FX, so it was misleading if not exactly hyped. Then there is this from Erik Buell, again in a press release to Roadracing World: The entry of four independent teams in the Daytona 200 brings to fruition the original goal of the Buell XBRR program: To make affordable bikes for privateers who want to compete in the prestigious AMA Formula Extreme class and other pro-level road racing classes. “Although Formula Xtreme has seen some exciting and very fast motorcycles from the factories, the gap between factory riders and privateers is pretty large,” said Erik Buell, Chairman and Chief Technical Officer, Buell Motorcycle Company. “We talked with the AMA and asked them if we could modify bikes at the factory and sell them to privateers, and that we wouldn’t be running a factory team. The reception from the AMA to this was quite positive.” I'm sure I could spend all afternoon digging out quotes and press releases but can't be bothered. |
