| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
Rocket, The fact that no other manufacturer is currently using a chassis similar to the XB does not mean they are not interested or impressed. But each company carries its own heritage, so they stick to the staff they now that works and is like a trademark for them. I think it is unlikely to see a Honda superbike with steel trellis frame, or a Ducati with a aluminium frame. Both companies win races and championships at the highest level. So they both got it right, designing a decent frame that works very well. But I think that these manufactures (Ducati & Honda) sometimes wished to use solutions found to their racing rivals. But they DO NOT do it because of pride and because it would be admitting that they were wrong. This is the case with the XB frame. Maybe other manufactures know that it is a step forward (fuel inside the frame) but refuse to adopt it because they did not think of it first. There is nothing magic about the XB frame. The fuel is carried inside the frame and lowers the center of gravity, which is excellent. Thanks to the new technologies in casting this was made possible. But at the same time, unless Buell wins races at a top level, even Superstock or FX, then their claims of a "magic" chassis are not valid. As far as the XB12R is not fast enough, we both know it in NOT TRUE. My XB12R with raceECM + Micron + Open airbox with K&N, is faster than a Ducati 749. That is a fact. Also my XB12R is as fast as a Yama R6 with the high compression gasket and race pipe + Powercommander. The XB is slightly faster up to 220km/h and then the rev limiter kicks in, and the R6 gets ahead. I am sorry, but if this is not fast enough for you ...........you should buy a GSXR1000. But the best riders I know say that the GSXR cannot be driven at public roads. I think that Buell should go racing the soonest the possible, to prove themselves as manufacturers and us as their fans. | ||
| Ducxl |
Row,row row,'ya boat,GENTLY down the stream,merrily,merrily merrily,merrily,LIFE IS BUT A DREAM.........I'm dreaming of a WET BUELLL...just like the one that ducati maaakes.Where the power's greater...than say a Yami one liter....la,la,la..... HAPPY NEW YEAR BADWEBBERS! let's resolve to support Buell more constructively..WOO-HOO! | ||
| Ducxl |
RightO Vagelis,Ducati will never do away with Desmodromics.It defines them(or maybe more accurately their world championships). They also copied the Honda SSSA.But when Honda lawyers showed up,the Ducati engineers pointed to a long time scooter where they(Cagiva corporate?) used a SSSA......nothing new,just reinvented by Honda | ||
| Madduck |
I don't believe there were any "test mules" made up with an XB chassis and the v-rod motor. I know of several "tubers". My sources are somewhat limited but at that time security wasn't quite so "draconian". Having both an S2 and a Street rod in the garage at the same time it is possible to see how to work out the details of fitting the revo motor in that chassis. Have thought of doing that for "homecoming" one of these years but finances have been spent on real racing lately. I believe that would be an interesting bike to bring to East Troy. | ||
| Rocketman |
Vag, it is a well known fact that the Greeks invented every word in the universe, and they are the best liars too, or so my mate Elias never stops telling me, but prone to exaggeration I would never have put down to a Greek - until now. Vag, MCN's chief road tester, who has ridden just about every modern era bike under the sun, also last seasons Rossi and Capirossi GP bikes as well as a crop of GP, WSB and BSB bikes over the years says this about the R6, "A track is what the R6 was built for. From riding position to razor-sharp steering to searing top end performance, every aspect comes together to make thrilling races". Here in the UK we run the Virgin Mobile R6 Cup championship, where Franklin says the only modifications to a stock R6 necessary are Performance-Friction race spec brake pads, replica bodywork, Remus end can, crash bungs, Pro-Mach rearsets and Dunlop Qualifier tyres. To quote, "The end result? A bike that steered, braked, and fired out of corners like a full-on sponsored, factory supersport bike". You think if you put some qualifiers and race spec pads in a highly tunes XB12 it would be competitive with an R6? Or how about just leaving an R6 and an XB12 stock (or tune the XB) you really think an XB is as fast as an R6? You're dreaming - wake up  As for the XB chassis, I don't for a moment question that each manufacturer has what works best for them as their trademark but other manufacturers are not limited to one singular chassis concept that restricts what design you can bring to each model, which is the case for the XB. The XB chassis limits its design parameters which is why, as in Buells case, they need to keep its production life as long as marketably possible - which equates to Buell making the chassis popular for as long as need be. Such a design parameter might work well in the US domestic market where there is a great deal of patriotism towards American made motorcycles, but how long can rehashing the design, XBR, XBS, XB Ulysses, XBTT etc etc etc continue to interest an ever changing forever fickle hot bed of motorcycle buying public like we have in the EU? As fantastic as it might be from a riding perspective, that will never be enough alone to get it anywhere near longevity and high volume sales capacity, which is what Buell appears to need to go racing at some higher level than domestic club racing. As for my personal preferences towards performance. It matters not that a GSXR can't be ridden to its limits (or can it  ) on the open road. What's important is to know that the bike in your garage will break the performance margin you require should ever you want it to, even if it is nothing more than a bench race between friends. That's why racing bikes on Sunday has always sold 'em on Monday. Something I'm still waiting for Buell to do. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Steve, all the best to you too. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Paul, if what you say is true, then what multi cylinder engine have Buell put in an XB chassis? Unless of course the anonymous poster was lying when they answered my question and said it had been done? All the best to you too. Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
"This is the case with the XB frame. Maybe other manufactures know that it is a step forward (fuel inside the frame) but refuse to adopt it because they did not think of it first." The I-4 bikes do not need fuel in frame,they can get the gastank to fit between the frame rails and it sits pretty low,Yamaha has been doing this for 20 years. | ||
| Anonymous |
Such a design parameter might work well in the US domestic market where there is a great deal of patriotism towards American made motorcycles, but how long can rehashing the design, XBR, XBS, XB Ulysses, XBTT etc etc etc continue to interest an ever changing forever fickle hot bed of motorcycle buying public like we have in the EU? So far the XB is selling more in the EU than in the US. Not trying to argue, just pointing out that as of right now, the EU market is still on board with what Buell is doing. Also, your simplified explanation above of the motorcycle chassis, is that - very simplified (as I'm sure you're aware - no, that's not sarcasm). There is a lot more to motorcycle chassis design than what was described and that is where all the hard work into the XB chassis comes into play. If it was a simple as setting steering geometry, wheelbase and the like, and then simply connecting the dots, those OCC hacks could be doing sportbikes. I know you know there's more to it than that. You know that from your S1 - those tubes do a lot more than just connect the dots. Is it magic - no. Are there some things that the XB chassis does better than others that are not necessarily apparent at first glance - yes. - Different Anony | ||
| Blake |
Sean, You are hilarious. Never even ridden one, but they aren't fast enough? I didn't have you pegged for a spec sheet racer. I've ridden one. The handling must be tried to be appreciated. The steering response is unbelievable, truly 250GP calibre stuff. Do yourself a favor, get a ride on an XB12S and take it through a course where quick handling makes a difference. You won't believe it. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Better yet. Ride a XB Firebolt ... on a tight track where you can explore its capabilities without distraction. | ||
| M2nc |
Between my M2 and a Firebolt there is no comparison, the Firebolt has much better handling. The only reason I do not have one is I ride longer distances than most sport bike riders would ever want to go. So the Ulysses is perfect for me. Between the M2 and Uly the Uly handles better. I believe you must try out something before you write it off. Of course if you are looking for more straight line speed than the Buell's offer then it makes sense to pass. I agree with the sport bike fan that wants more motor than the Firebolt offers, but do not confuse the dated motor with the state of the art Chassis. It is truly marvelous and top notch! I would like to see Buell go the way of BMW and offer a new motor and keep the old one for those of us that like the character of the present motor. It would be cool having a Firebolt with a top notch motor sitting next to the Ulysses with its thumper! | ||
| Blake |
"I would like to see Buell go the way of BMW and offer a new motor and keep the old one for those of us that like the character of the present motor." Also add Ducati to that list, yes?  | ||
| Eboos |
I would agree with M2nc. Being an owner of an M2 and a frequent rider of a Firebolt, I must say that the Firebolt handles much better. I still need to play with the suspension settings and change the tires on the Firebolt to dial it in, but through the esses, it feels much better then my M2. | ||
| Rocketman |
Different Anony, thanks for a charming response. I won't argue with that. No hard feelings.  Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Rocket, what I am stating in these threads about my XB12 against the R6 are NO GREEK MYTHOLOGY. It is a fact ! The R6 I was refering to, is a 2003 mod., not a 2006. And yes my XB12R pulls the same (a little better actually) in a straight line than this R6 (up to 200 km/h). At the corners, when we come exiting corners from say 100km/h and up, I say goodbye. This particular R6 has Ohlins suspension, no lights and a racing suit, lower ratio sprockets, higher compression gasket(Supplied by Yama), race pipe and Powercommander. This R6 is faster (up to 200km/h)than stocks R6, Triumph675, Duke749. So my XB12R to run against this R6 is pretty cool ! I am going for rides with these guys on their R6,675,749 every weekend, WHILE I AM AWAKE. So stop saying that the XB12 has no guts, unless you have abilities similar to the GREAT LORIS CAPIROSSI and spend your life at the racetrack. A far as stock XB12R, give them just a K&N, cut the airbox around the filter, and up to 200km/h, simply send any stock R6 to HELL !!!!! Take my word for it, go to a dealer and ask for a stock XB12 with KN and open airbox. Even better, invite a friend with a stock R6,GSXR,675. Then ......... | ||
| Jscott |
Crevier has signed with Yamaha Canada for 2007. It's very unlikely that Deeley's will participate in FX next year. | ||
| Rocketman |
Vag, if you are awake, the only explanation that would explain ANY XB outpacing your mates 03 R6 in a straight line, out of the corners, or in fact anywhere, is his R6 is set up wrong and the tuning is not right by some margin as well as the gearing been way too low. You've chose the most race focused of all 600's and possibly the most formidable too to put your XB against. If what you say was true right across the board, Buell would be racing FX and they wouldn't need to do so on a 1350cc RR either, so that was a waste of money for Buell eh. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
You still don't quite seem to understand Rocket... I've learned that at this point you must be on your down swing . The 600's offer little to no competition to an XB on a tight racetrack or a tight canyon road (I mean one marked 35MPH with plenty of yellow 15's signs). They just don't. I spent a day at the racetrack and the 600's were a nusance. I found myself hunting down the 1000 twins and IL4's for the fun. Yes, it was a very tight track but that's where the XB's strengths shine. It's about choosing where to fight. You'll never see me pull up to a 1000 on a long straight and give him ANY shit. They'll run off and hide. Likewise, the guys on 1000's will indeed learn that they're in the same situation in the deep canyons. They offer nothing to the XB there. Apples and oranges. It all depends on where you ride and what you're doing. There are magazine articles that lament the fact that they took an XB9 out as a chase bike with the latest (as of the time of printing, I think 2004) IL4 1000's and couldn't keep the XB behind the 1000's. Even after that, one of the guys (that was using it to pass the litre bikes) didn't like the handling... Whatever. On another note... Straights this time... Coming out of turn four at Firebird international onto the "long" straight... The 600's (the new ones) would pull away by about 10-15', but only after I had gained 8-12' on them in the first third of the straight. There are two straights on that track that are preceeded and followed by low speed 2nd gear corners. That's where I was passing the 1000's. On those two short straights. On my favorite canyon road... there are probably 100 of those straights and only three that need third. I can only tell you what I have experienced Sean... Do the math. Oh yeah... That was my first time at the track but I do have a lot of miles on a road that has similar pavement and shape conditions (the road actually has somewhat better pavement). | ||
| Rocketman |
The worlds press have put up the XB as a fantastic cornering bike. One British magazine also placed the XB as having the highest cornering speed across the apex. Great fantastic most excellent indeed.....but Some of you talk of the R6 like it's another 600cc sportsbike but above and beyond that it is nothing else. The simple fact is, as very very very very very very very special an XB Buell is, with all that 250GP bike size / weight / geometry thing going on, Yamaha have found their comparable very very very very very very very special IL 4 600 and it's an R6 that has some of its lineage from Rossi's Moto GP bike. It's been through the speed traps at 167mph. Does 0 to 60mph in 3.5 seconds. Does 0 to 160mph in less than 28 seconds. No flat spots. No waiting for that motor to rev whilst a torque monster V twin runs away from it. Those are the old 600 days, and I mean old. An R6 weighs 161kg which is a massive 19kg, or 42lbs lighter than an XB. The R6's wheelbase is 1380mm, which is 2.3 inches longer than an XB, and yes the XB does have a tighter rake, but the R6 has a fearsome reputation for having razor sharp handling. The R6 is more aerodynamic too. I can only guess that those R6's that go to the track days across your side of the pond must be owned by ageing Harley pilots fresh off their iron horses, or by novices who just can't handle the awesome race bike level of performance and agility the R6 offers. Let's keep it real. Rocket | ||
| M2nc |
Sean, I agree that the R6 & R1 are great bikes, but Cycle World has pinned your home town boy, the Daytona 675 as King of the 600s. In their 2006 bike comparison at the track, not only did the 675 beat the R6, it also beat the R1. As a matter of fact only two other bikes beat the 675. The ZX-10R was only 1/10 of second faster and the Aprilia was was 3/10. Not a bad huh! The 675 made all its time in the corners, running up to 6mph faster than the two liter bikes in tight corners. The R6 was found to be peaky and the worse of the group for mid-range power. The fight for the 600 title was between the ZX-6R 636 and the Daytona 675. I second M1's experience but I have never "Raced" anyone so its hard to say what are the limits of the bikes. Through aggressive street riding on some of the best motorcycle roads in the world I can say I have been able to keep up with or leave any sport bike I have come across. I embarrassed a guy on an R1 the first time I went to Suches. Then a few weeks ago I rode with a group of sport bikes, RC51, GSX-R1000, Daytona 675, GSX-R1300 and Suzuki Bandit 400cc. Two of these guys are military pilots and excellent riders. Another guy is known as the world's tallest motorcycle circuit-racer. Mike is a great guy and owned a local Triumph dealership. At the end of the ride, Mike complemented the Uly and put me down at the same time. He said, "The Ulysses is a great bike. It's easy for anyone to ride it fast." I was nodding like a bobble head doll until it hit me, Hey! I want to ride a 675 and compare. It seems to be the media darling for handling to date. | ||
| M1combat |
I'd like to take a 675 for a spin as well... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
The 675 is very fast, has very strong brakes but compared to the XB12R : 1. Has less feedback to the handlebars 2. The back wheel spins more, when giving gas while having less torque. Thats why I like V-2 power. | ||
| Anonymous |
"To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, you must also be well-mannered." - Voltaire (the other anonymous) | ||
| Jscott |
"The personal insult is the last recourse of an exhausted mind." -Patrick J Buchanan | ||
| Rocketman |
Yes it won the Junior TT. The 675 is indeed everything you say, except it is not a 600, thus was not figured in the 'best of' 600's class I was quoting from. Without making the battle of the 600's a subjective issue, which of course - it is, that wasn't the point of the discussion. Because an XB only has 5 gears and 6000 rpm to play with, its only advantage over an R6 in performance is its roll on in the gears, but racing, be it on a twisty track or a canyon carving road, is not about staying in the gears. The XB is a clever way of making an old duffer power plant perform well. Very well even. But if you took an R6 to a pocket bike race track a Blata racer would beat it. That is to say, give an XB a tight technical track and a tight twisting canyon road and you are 'giving' the XB an advantage it has to rely upon to remain competitive, but no road in the real world no matter which canyon you're riding will not at some point remove that advantage. Now every road I've ridden, including Colorado canyon roads, it won't be long before an XB loses that advantage. And in the case of an R6, once you've lost that advantage to one, you will never regain it riding an XB. Proven fact - MCN UK (where they set up a road course of many types of corners over several miles). The XB was 8 seconds slower than an R1 after 8 miles. Reported on BadWeB about 2 years ago. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much". Rocket | ||
| Ducxl |
The XB was 8 seconds slower than an R1 after 8 miles. Duh,well of course,silly Rocket,you just compared a 1000cc Yami against a 1200cc Buell! How does the '06 600cc R6 compare? Too bad about my sarcasm,but the newest R6 is absolutely sick looking,lightweight,and 15000 RPM powerful | ||
| Jscott |
Is Dean Adams reading this thread? "As most web veterans know all too well, there's few things in the virtual world that are more entertaining than when two knobs from two distinctly different perspectives publicly argue their positions in full view of the on-line audience. Witness the Apple vs Windows debates when Windows '95 launched or the the semi-recent Buell vs Ducati on-line battles to see how things can quickly erode into name-calling and personal insults. And the occasional death-threat." http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Jan/070103a2.h tm | ||
| Court |
And this . . .today . . . on the 30th birthday of Apple Computers. |
