| Author | Message | ||
     Davo |
Roc, Thanks for the information. I will definitely take a look at the combustion chambers. I am not bringing the bike in. I refuse to own a dealer dependent vehicle. I have been working on engines since I was a kid. I work on bikes and I am inside the engines frequently. I have an XL that I like to tweak and I have an Ultra as well. I bought the Uly to have a stock bike that was pristine and I did not have to worry about. I wanted a bike that was American made, comfortable, quick, capable of going off road and as well as carrying gear. I now regret the purchase. I have had too many problems with the bike for being a well engineered bike. I know that Buell can't help me without going to a dealer so I will have to deal with it myself. I will pull the engine down as soon as I have time and the money to rebuild it. Buell sent me a signed windshield thanking me for buying one of their first Ulys. I just wanted them to work with me on finding a fix for all of us. If you read this thread you will see that there are others with the same problem. Did you guys cc Steve's heads and verify the compression ratio? Murraebueler, What is a normal AFV at 7500 ft.? I am running an AFV of 100 at 400 ft. and almost 10 degrees late. The reading should be quite a bit lower if the compression was normal. Don't you agree? | ||
| Roc |
Davo, Both front and rear cylinders were 150 psi on the first stroke. Front cylinder was 170 psi on the final stroke and rear was 165 psi. This is from the compression test procedure on 3-7. I appreciate your ideology of independence, I do what I can on my own to the extent that it drives my wife nuts, but it wouldn’t even cost you the money for parts if you let the dealer fix it. | ||
| Davo |
Roc, Thanks again for the data. When I pull mine down I will cc the heads and determine the ratio. I plan to either relieve the heads and/or shim the cylinders up in order to remove the excessive squish,....... if there is excessive squish. I will make book of my results. By the way there is an interesting "white wire" thread going on in the xb forum. I have done quite a bit of testing with the VSS and O2 circuits. Have you guys played with this on the dyno? The xb folks seem to think it is reserved for the 9s but I found it also applies to the 12s. Thanks again! | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- I find myself agreeing with Roc and not just for the money issue. Most dealers won't give you parts under warranty without installing them, so going will definitely save you time and money. The other issue is getting relevant info to the engineers at the factory. If there is a traceable issue, the more they know the easier it is to achieve a solution that benefits more owners. Shimming or reliving the heads may be a solution, but the bigger question is why do you need to do it in the first place. Bad casting? Head gasket out of spec? Anyway, just my opinion. We also see very few issues with the XB platform. As far as the AFV question goes, I'm not sure what you're after. As I understand the system, AFV is an arbitrary scale used to measure the air to fuel ratio in relation to the mapping and reflect a number that can be used diagnostically. The O2 sensor measures the post combustion oxygen in the exhaust stream and sends a signal to the ECM which refers to a table and based on load (throttle position) , engine temp, air temp, engine speed, etc. picks a map from another table and establishes it as the best parameter for the bike in those conditions. The AFV changes in this process. The AFV is affected by many things including ambient barometric pressure relative to altitude, air temperature, air density, fuel density,etc. Many of these "external" factors are represented in the residual O2 in the exhaust stream. The AFV, I'm led to believe, only changes under certain circumstances- essentially closed loop operation which occurs when the O2 sensor reaches the proper temperature (load), the engine is operating between 2800 and 3200 RPM and the throttle position is less than 30% or so. Sounds suspiciously like and EPA test mode. When all of these variables meet, the ECM sets the map and reflects an AFV value that can be read by a scanalyzer or a digital tech. As soon as the bike goes into open loop, the map "freezes" at the last choice until the bike is back in closed loop. I've also been led to believe that lower AFV is leaner overall mapping and higher is richer overall mapping and that an AFV of 100 reflects a stock bike at sea level in perfect conditions. Higher performance bikes, ie. bikes with greater volumetric efficiency would probably reflect a higher overall AFVdue to needing more fuel. As far as average AFV at 7500 feet, I'll have to check a bike but I seem to remember that high 70s to mid 80s is what we've seen on stock bikes. My hotrod S3 with 11:1 runs in the low 90s. It has also run as high as 125 at sea level. This seems to go along with the inherent power loss due to altitude- 3% for every 1000 feet above 500 feet above sea level. Here we're down around 20%. You also lose a full point of compression for every 5000 feet above sea level. In Death Valley I could power wheeling in the first three gears easily. Up here the bike will lift the front wheel in low gear only. I would still try another ECM with normal timing before tearing the bike down. I would probably also try different injectors. I've seen similar ,but rare, problems with both. Hope you figure it out. Be sure and share your info with the factory. Have a safe new year. Murrae  | ||
| Davo |
I have tested one other ECM and the parameters were the same. The bike that had the ECM was a pinger as well. Time will tell but I find it hard to believe that the trace carbon in Steve's heads is responsible for the amount of compression that was described. I hope that I am wrong though. I realize that I will have to pay for the parts to rebuild my top end but that is the price I will have to pay. The pay off will be that after I pull it down I will know exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. My dealer will not sell me a stock ECM and they want me to leave it in order to re-flash the existing ECM. Thanks for the information on the AFV. I have tested the AFV extensively and have found ways to manipulate and even prevent the ECM from learning new AFVs. Thanks to TechnoReseach the shade tree guys are still in the game. My biggest disappointment is that my relationship with Buell has been strained because I was willing to work with them on this issue and they did not reciprocate. We could have had a fix six months ago. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- I would agree on the trace carbon- a couple of thousandths off or on a surface won't make any difference either. I also know it doesn't take many cc's to change a ratio. I'm pretty sure I can get you a stock ECM if you want one. I can also reflash yours if you send it to me. It would be interesting for you to test a new ECM to see if there are any differences. I'd be interested to know. The 3/4 throttle thing still makes me think it's an ECM/injector issue. If you need cc info, you might be able to get it from Aaron Wilson or I can try to get it for you. Too bad about Buell, but I'm sure it's a liability/proprietary issue and nothing personal. The easiest way to defeat the AFV is to simply unplug the O2 sensor- we do it on the dyno when we tune tube frame bikes with power commanders. Keep us up to date. Murrae | ||
| Teeps |
Davo Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 My biggest disappointment is that my relationship with Buell has been strained because I was willing to work with them on this issue and they did not reciprocate. We could have had a fix six months ago. Davo, Rare is the manufacturer that will work with a consumer on a complicated problem, such as the pining issue. They have strict policies and procedures they are mandated to follow, usually by G'ment agencies, or their own legal department. So don't be angry or disappointed in Buell, as this is the world we live in. If you want to try a '05XB12 ECM, I have one you can borrow. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Try to use an 06 or later just in case the maps changed. That's the first year the factory claimed the bikes met '08 CARB standards. I'm pretty sure the part number changed indicating a revised/different version. Murrae | ||
| Davo |
Murraebueller, Could you please send me your postal address via a pm? I would like to send you my ECM for a re-flash if possible. I would be glad to review any new ECMs that are available. Thanks again for the information. Also FYI, If you disconnect the VSS the ECM will not learn a new AFV. If you disconnect the O2 after boot up the AFV value will drop to the lowest point. If you disconnect it prior to boot up the value will go to default or preset value. Have you experienced this on the dyno? | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- Done. BTW the engine loss at highway speeds also makes me think it's an ECM issue. We have sort of experienced the AFV scenario you mention on the dyno because we never run in closed loop with the O2 sensor disconnected. We run in open loop to tune without the hassle of the ECM trying to recalibrate the map. We then reconnect the O2 sensor and run the bike in closed loop to check the AFV. We always disconnect before boot up to default to the last AFV because we've run the bike on the road to get a current calibration. Murrae | ||
| Davo |
Excellent! Thanks for confirming the O2/VSS disconnect theory. | ||
| Davo |
Teeps, I think that you are right about the issues regarding the operation of a large company like Buell. Regardless, I will not cease in my pursuit. I will always try to treat others as I would like to be treated. If EB had a bike that would not run correctly I would do everything in my power to help him even if I didn't sell it to him. I was wrong thinking that the un-metric professionals would reciprocate to the level that I expected. I realize that there are many obstacles ie: labor, liability and the Feds. Though there are some good guys still out there. There is always a silver lining.... Murrae and Roc seem to be top shelf! | ||
| Firemanjim |
Murrae, running at 7500' elevation will cause rich,not lean change as you have less air available at that altitude. Running at Bonneville we are having to jet leaner than at sea level for this reason. Older carbed bikes really showed this when you went up in altitude. | ||
| Davo |
I checked a sea level AFV from a stock bike that had a pinging history. The AFV was 109.5. My AFV has been as high as 105 at 400 ft. above sea level prior to a intake seal replacement. After the repair the AFV has maintained 100 which is ideal. The curious thing is that I am running extremely late, about 8-9 degrees now. | ||
| Opto |
Davo, the '04 XB12 ecm will not change the AFV if the 02 sensor is disconnected. It simply retains what it last ran, confirmed this on my Lightning. It was delivered (export model) with the VSS wire disconnected. Haven't played with the Uly ecm yet. I still don't agree that an AFV of 100 is "ideal" unless the bike is stock, and that if you fit a higher flow pipe on it the AFV will increase, *if* the pipe flows more between 3k and 4k rpm where the AFV gets set. (Message edited by opto on January 01, 2007) | ||
| Davo |
Opto, I am bone stock. I am simply using the normal AFV of 100 while running almost 10 degrees late to demonstrate the likelihood of a higher than prescribed compression ratio....................Happy New Year! | ||
| Opto |
That is good then. Are you going to do a compression test on your bike? | ||
| Davo |
Yes, I have been planning on doing one for several weeks. Things have been kind of crazy here in the Northern hemisphere. I need to get in the shop and do some work on my stuff. What I plan to do is pull the engine out and cc the engine with a fluid measurement to determine the exact ratio. I will do a simple compression check first and post the results. I can tell that the ratio is high by the way the engine cranks and responds under load with pump (93 octane)gas before and after fuel additives. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- Be sure and let us know. I'll check with my sources and see if I can get an "average" cylinder pressure. If the cc's are fine, I'd still recommend checking the ECM or the injectors. The latest issue of Cycle World (Feb. '07)briefly mentions carbon buildup causing knocking in Kevin Cameron's column. Fireman Jim- I'm not sure what you're saying- more altitude means less air density (same percentage, less density due to lower atmospheric pressure) and less fuel is required for optimal combustion causing the ECM to move the fuel injection to a leaner (shorter burst) mix, thus adjusting the air/fuel ratio in the lean direction to achieve what the map has determined as the correct mixture. This , of course, is true if you're rising from sea level to a higher altitude. If you're coming down in altitude, say from Rocky Mountain National Park to Santa Fe, the adjustment would be to the rich side to accommodate the higher air density by injecting more fuel (longer burst). Higher leaner, lower richer. Is this what you're saying? This brings us back to Davo's dilemma- is the pinging being caused by higher compression, improper timing or improper fueling? Or a combination of the three? By the way, the cranking issue could be timing related as well. What happens to the AFV when you run the timing at null? | ||
| Davo |
I noticed slight carbon build up in the intake. I spent last winter breaking the engine in according to the procedure and I thought it felt like the rev numbers were low but I followed the procedure closely. In fact I never pushed the engine until I had about 3K! But if carbon build up was the problem then with late timing the problem should be worse. Bike runs good, never any pinging and AFV at 100! | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- Got your message and receiving is looking for it. Is return by ground OK? According to my contact, he sees average cylinder pressures of 150-165 but suggests that 180 would cause concern. If carbon is suspect, you can use an old tuners trick and warm up the engine to running temp and spray mist water into the intake at 2000 RPM. Any resident carbon will be instantly removed. He also confirmed that changing timing on a Buell can be highly detrimental and you should be seeking other remedies. He also felt the ECM may be at fault as some have been replaced for the same reasons. I will also be happy to report the cc findings and any other issues you find to him. Murrae | ||
| Jim_sb |
Okay, So let's see if I have this straight. My bike pings doing modest throttle roll-ons in just about any gear when in the 3,000 - 4000rpm range. If I whack it full WOT then no ping - but that is not always an option. I mentioned this to my nearest Buell dealer at the 1000 mile service and they told me "The timing can't be adjusted". So I need to go back to the dealer where I bought the bike and tell them: 1. Bike pings when warm between 3k and 4k during modest acceleration. 2. Check the compression (and reference hesitation when starting on first crank of the day). 3. Check the static timing with the Buell Digital Tech. 4. Write to Buell. Anyone have an email address? Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Murraebueller |
Jim_sb- ANY Buell dealer should be able to check the timing. Refer them to section 1-17 on page 1-45 of the 2007 Service Manual. Checking the timing is part of the 10K service. If they find the timing off and the bike is low mileage they should be able to file a warranty claim. Some bikes have shown up here with the same problem and all of the ones we've seen had the timing set improperly from the factory. A quick static re-time solved the issue. The starting hesitation could also be from improperly set timing. If the timing and cylinder pressure are correct, the problem may well be in the ECM which is also warranty. As far as dealing directly with Buell, you might have better luck finding a sympathetic dealer and starting there. Let me know if I can help from here. | ||
| Davo |
Jim, The timing can be adjusted but they can't change it. You don't need a digital tech. If you are pinging check the intake for leaks otherwise the only fix so far for me was to retard the timing until it quits pinging. It takes about 10 minutes. The folks at Buell claim there are very few bikes that have a pinging issue. I disagree, there have been dozens of Ulys that have had pinging issues this past summer. Some have been severe. Be sure to write to Buell. I wrote to them in October and I have not heard from them yet. (Message edited by davo on January 03, 2007) (Message edited by davo on January 03, 2007) | ||
| Davo |
Murrae, Ground is fine, I was just trying to get it to you guys as fast as possible. Until then I will ride the Ultra. I road it yesterday and it was kind of nice. I got a hopped up XL if I feel the need for speed. Thanks again. If you think I need a new ECM just let me know and I will make arrangements. By the way, can you get some specifics from your contact as to why changing the timing is a problem? I keep hearing that but no one can explain. I have been tweaking engines for about thirty years now. Yesterday I was working on a 2300 Ford that has the cam shaft advanced two teeth which is 18 degrees and it still will not idle below 1200 RPM. I have never put a light on it because it doesn't have any marks. Plug reads and the sound of the pipes is my dyno for now. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Davo- I'll see what I can do, but I seem to remember that it has to do with the map parameters in the ECMs. One would think that if you changed the timing in a "smart" system that the fueling would change as well to maintain the operational range of the map. If you're retarding timing and the pinging is going away, this would seem to not be the case. I'm also assuming that the change has not caused an engine light which would indicate that the ECM sees no "problem" with the timing change and probably hasn't made any map changes to accommodate the timing change. Did the AFV change after you retarded the timing? I will try to put your ECM into a known bike with no pinging issues before and after I do the reflash- depends on the weather here. | ||
| Davo |
Murrae, The AFV was 103.5 before I changed the seals. The AFV is 100 now. I did not check the AFV earlier because my pinging was so severe that I did not want to damage the engine. As soon as the pinging started, I went into the cone and started turning it counterclockwise 1mm at a time. The factory marks in the cone represent 10 degrees for each mark. 1mm=3 degrees. Now when I run the engine at idle and put a light on it and the ET hits 307 the front plug advance drops to zero and I am at zero on the flywheel. That is why I wanted to know what the initial built in advance was at CPS 5.2V. I wanted Buell to put a light on the engine so they would see that their numbers were in addition to the built in initial advance at CPS 5.2V which is aprx. 7.5 degrees. Therefore if the VDSTS reads 30 degrees it is actually 37.5! They told me to throw away the light. (Message edited by davo on January 03, 2007) | ||
| Treadmarks |
Davo, I have a 06 XB12X Uly factory ECM that is totally stock and has not been modified. It is from my never pinging bike. I have a race ECM and no longer need the stocker. PM me with your info and you can have it. I would like to know if it resolves these issues. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Jim_sb, I think I've touched on this before but my Uly pings like yours, CA gas is the worst in the nation so it probably contributes. BUT, it's January. Today with temp in the 50's riding home from work, headwinds and traffic on the Conejo Grade, RSS, at 75 mph I roll it on to pass and the rattling sang out... This is ridiculous. I informed dealer within a couple days from taking possession of my new bike last May that it pinged. I asked them to check into it at the 1k service. They proclaimed it "OK" but in July another dealer in another state found the timing advanced from standard, from the factory. Throughout the summer and early fall with high temps I dealt with it. But pinging in January? I'm heading out on a trip next weekend where we'll probably hit snow, if this bike pings in any way I'm parking it and dusting off the old BMW, or whatever. I love this Uly but whenever anybody asks me about it (a lot) I have to be honest. | ||
| Davo |
Treadmarks, Thanks for the offer. If my re-flash doesn't do the trick I will take you up on it. I would bet a dollar to a donut that the pinging is due to excessive compression. I have corresponded with many others that have had similar problems without resolve. There is a Australian Uly that has had just about every sensor and component replaced and it still pinged until the owner went with an after-market fuel delivery system. Check out these parameters: 1. ET-397F-401 2. rpm 3100 3. spark advance in excess of 60 degrees 4. tps-9 5. 60 mpg 6. 93 octane pump fuel 7. meets EPA regs w/o a Cat 8. compression at least 10.5 to 1 If it is too good to be true, then its got to ping! (Message edited by davo on January 04, 2007) (Message edited by davo on January 04, 2007) |
