| Author | Message | ||
     Bomber |
God bless Italian motorcycle manufacturers. At least they try their damned hardest to please the people that buy them rather than fill the pockets of fat cat shareholders , many of who don't even own a motorcycle. wow -- I had no idea that the stock market, investors, and their money existed soley to provide amusment to consumers -- all this time I thought it was about profit, and building wealth (at whatever level). Ducati makes what many believe are the world's best motorcycles -- that's a truism. they also lurch from financial debacle to fiscal failure. another truism. while I'd much rather own a 1098 than a bagger, if I was a betting man (wait, I own a 401k, IRA, Roth, etc, so I guess I am!), I'd put my money on HDI, not Ducati it's two different conversations that have become mingled due to Ducati's fiscal health apparantly having a negative impact on the availability of bikes, spares and parts . . . . . . HDI is doing what it's owners want it to do -- making them gobs of money -- I fail to see how that is in any way wrong but I'm just an ignorant capitolist petrol head, rather than a source of the truth, the light and way | ||
| Vagelis46 |
This thread is really interesting. It seems that when people are asked to give little money for a cause, they find it extremely difficult to reach their pockets. Pity!!! Ducati are no robbers. They just manufacture the best racing bikes and so their road bikes are as close to a factory machine as possible. That is why people love Ducati and buy their bikes. The XBrr was condemned from the start. There was no way for such an ancient engine design to be successfull. Buell needs a new engine if they want to stand a chance to be successfull. So now, I see a reason for the factory to step back from the FX series. There is no real reason spending money and labour on a racing machine that does not worth it, and that will never be competitive. Imagine Ducati trying to make it with their air-cooled engine in the Superbike series. They could stand no chance, even completing a race without the engine melting! I hope that everybody at Buell are working on a new engine so revolutionary, that when introduced to the public everybody will be amazed. Just the way everybody was amazed with the introduction of the XB9R 4 years ago. I know Erik can do it, and wants to do it!!! At least this is something I want to believe. Some people mentioned a liquid cooled square 4!!! That would be really something!!! If Buell does not spend money and labour on a new engine, and stays only with the H-D engine on their range, in my opinion it will be a disaster. Buell will remain a brand just to fill a hole in the H-D range, on the sportier side of the range. And that is it. Slowly the world will lose interest, and only H-D fans will buy them. They can change the brand name to H-D and still make no difference. That will be a disaster for a man like Erik, and all the efford he has done. But I think he will not let this happen. The whole XB concept is really good. A production bike with the fuel carried inside the frame ?? AMAZING !! .The missing link for the project to be completed is a modern engine that suits the chassis. Then take the machine racing and start improving it. So that after 3 years they will talk about the new Buell as they talk about the new Ducati 1098. I hope the engine is where Erik is putting the money, the labour and his mind on right now. I agree, lets forget the XBRR. It could not succeed much anyway. | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan cont.: Saying the the bike will get developed in CCS or ASRA is not going to make it a competitive FX bike (with no disrespect to the guys that race in these classes). That is like trying to develop an F1 car at a go kart race. Now, come on...there is plenty of disrespect in that statement. Over the top, over the top! Condescencion doesn't become you either. jimidan I wasn't being disrespectful or condescending at all Jimi. Remember I am also involved in club level racing and I know the effort and time that people put into it. What I meant was that to develop a race bike to compete at FX or MotoGP level you need to compete at that level. Winning a bunch of lower level races will prove nothing and will not improve the bike or the rider. | ||
| Jimidan |
T-man, I know what you meant...but it was the way you said it that I found condescending. F1 to go carts is not equal to Fx to CCS/ASRA...in any book. jimi | ||
| Daves |
I'm really good at bumper cars. Can I go race NASCAR?  | ||
| Buell920 |
I guess this means that you never have had a conversation with Erik Buell then, right? Or read anything he has written? Or read any interviews? If you had, you would not be coming to that conclusion.} jimidan well I must have missed the one were he states A) I have no money to go racing B) I want to build a bike that will beat all other brands in any race. C) I wanted to support racers but HD said NO! D) we have no money to develop better product because we are just making it as is. | ||
| Rocketman |
they also lurch from financial debacle to fiscal failure. Then prove it Bomber. How about you Court? You guys appear to know so much about Ducatis tentative future. Care to share it - with real facts? Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
Rocket -- future? I know nothing about their future. Fact -- they've been purchased a number of times over the last 20 years. Most often by fat cats with little other business interests in the motorcycling world. Fact -- they've received a bailout from the Italian government on at least one occasion that I can remember -- Non-scientific polling of Ducati owners reveals difficulties in getting parts and spares in a timely manner on a number of occasions, said occasions generally coinciding with time of uncertainty regarding Ducati's fiscal future. this tempast in a teacup is not interesting enough for me to do any degree of research, so I shan't. I do know that industry in general in Italy is, how can I put this, less predictable than in some other countries -- labor and governmental issues contribute to this, I'm sure, but I would imagine there are other factors in play, as well Again, past performance is no indicator of future performance, so I know nothing of their future. You, I'm sure, have had it revealed to you. My advice to you, if the future looks good, invest. Perhpas you, too, can become a fat cat ;-} | ||
| Davegess |
From Reuters. This is a 10 million euro loss for this year and they restate last yeat to indicate a 3 mill lose. Sales are down 3% over last year. These are unaudited so could be wrong. http://stocks.us.reuters.com/stocks/keyDevelopment s.asp?symbol=DMH Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. Issues FY 2006 Guidance Below Analysts' Expectations 2006 Nov 13 4:57 PM Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. announced that for full year 2006 it expects to report revenues of EUR 310 million, EBITDA equal to approximately 10% of revenues and a loss equivalent to approximately 3% of revenues. According to Reuters Estimates, analysts on average are expecting the Company to report revenues of EUR 338 million, EBITDA of EUR 29 million and a net loss of EUR (10) million, for 2006. Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. Issues FY 2005 Guidance Below Analysts' Expectations 2006 Nov 06 2:07 PM Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A. has announced that for full year 2005 the Company expects to report a pre-tax profit of EUR -2.0 million. According to Reuters Estimates, analysts on average are expecting the Company to report a pre-tax profit of EUR 6.7 million for full year 2005. And this link outline the 100 million loan they have set up to cover 54 mil in debt and provide operating money. http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID= 7556 Overall not a picture of financial health. | ||
| Davegess |
Not financila news but a comment form a knowledgable source. http://www.superbike.co.uk/racing/ama/Superbike_Du cati_AMA_news_news_93369.html "Further proof, if proof were needed, that Ducati's financial affairs are in a less than perfect state comes with the news that the manufacturer has decided to opt out of the AMA Superbike Championship from next year." | ||
| Rocketsprink |
While you argue over the financial well being of Ducati, they are still more successful in racing than Buell thus far. With a lot less money behind them on top of it. | ||
| Jscott |
If a constant state of near-bankruptcy can bring this kind of creativity...  ...bring it on!  | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I also predict they will be more successful for years to come. Hope I'm proven wrong. Only time will tell. | ||
| Court |
I think that tri-color is a gorgeous motorcycle. I like Ducatis. . . ALOT. That's no secret. The company is in a frickin' financial mess and has been in and out for a while. That's no secret. They are no currently making Ducatis, or are making them at a significantly reduced number. This was done to stop the inventory that was piling up with dealers unable to sell it. That's no secret. I hope they come out smelling like a rose. I was sorry to read in DEALERNEWS that the local Manhattan dealer had pretty much dropped them because it was simply not possible to have the bikes consuming floor space for extended periods of time waiting on common parts. That's no secret. I was sorry to see Ducati's top-of-the-line American "flagship" store turned into a deli. . . it was fun to hang out there. I live in the largest city in America, Ducati's sell ike frickin' hotcakes here. . . but no dealer will touch them. I dig the bikes. The company is a mess. I hope they race, win, excel and pull out of it. It's one of the funnest bikes I've ridden. PLEASE don't take my word for any of this. . . this is the fact depraved internet. . . . zoom on over to the Ducati Factory Site (by the way, it's likely one of the BEST motorcycle websites there is and light years better than Buells) and read about the financial debacle yourownself. It's no secret. | ||
| Daves |
I know a dealer that used to sell Ducati. He stopped because of slow parts delivery and slow payment of warranty work. It just wasn't worth it anymore, to him. | ||
| Court |
Absolutely. No one has ever, as best I can read, said, inferred or otherwise suggested anything other than that. | ||
| Davegess |
With a lot less money behind them on top of it. Ducati has, probably because they have been good at racing for so long, 1978 was one of the first big wins if I remember right, is able to attract top sponsor dollars and pay for racing without taking money from the factory. In fact Ducati Corse, the racing department is now a stand alone company that is actually paying money to the factory. The company was set up a year or so ago to avoid dragging the race team into the financial mess the company was sinking into. Corse agreeded to pay a set amount to the factory to buy itself from them thus making sponsers happy that the moeny they gave to the race team was staying with the race team and not paying for brake pads for the spare parts department. I am pretty certain that all the MotoGp and WSC bikes running were bought from the factory. | ||
| Rocketman |
Ducati accounts from 1998 through to the present are viewable at ducati.com Ducati are not bankrupt or anywhere near. That is absolute poppycock. Ducatis Classic range has sold out. Their popularity convinced Ducati to maintain production into the future. The Ducati Sportstouring ST3 gets ABS and more power for 2007. The Monster range because of its huge success is getting another revamp. Top Monster for 2007 is the more advanced than previous S4R, the S4R S Testastretta The Multistrada is getting a face lift and a more powerful 1100cc engine. Two models available, top model being the 1100S. The soon to be launched Hypermotard gets two 1100cc models. The S gets Marzocchi 50mm forks with Titanium Nitride coating, race spec Ohlins shock, Brembo Monobloc calipers, carbon fibre fork protectors, timing belt covers, rear tail section and front fender. The 1098 Superbike is available in three versions, 1098, 1098 S, and the Tricolore with Termignoni race kit and ECU. A limited edition production Desmosedici RR is due July 2007. AND IN 2007 DUCATI ARE GOING RACING IN LITTLE KNOW 'CLASSIC' DOMESTIC RACE SERIES, WHICH DUCATI SPONSOR, AS WELL AS RACING IN MANY OTHER RACE SERIES THE WORLD OVER, RIGHT THROUGH TO MOTO GP. No one but Ducati financed this huge offering. The Italian government didn't just give anything. Ducati sold their product, and sold it very well for at least the last 15 years. Get real people. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
In fact Ducati Corse, the racing department is now a stand alone company that is actually paying money to the factory. The company was set up a year or so ago to avoid dragging the race team into the financial mess the company was sinking into. Corse agreeded to pay a set amount to the factory to buy itself from them thus making sponsers happy that the moeny they gave to the race team was staying with the race team and not paying for brake pads for the spare parts department. I am pretty certain that all the MotoGp and WSC bikes running were bought from the factory. Dave, that's the daftest thing I've ever read about Ducati. Are you drinking laudanum or something? Ducati Corse is a subsidiary of Ducati Motor Holdings S.p.A. and has been for some years. That's the same as your Chevrolet main dealer service department charging the sales department for a service on a used Chevrolet before the vehicle is sold out of the door. It is a simplified way of keeping track of each department within the company and knowing the expenditure of each department. There is absolutely no hocus pocus going on dude, lol. Have you been talking to Court? Rocket | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocket, go take your meds; you are living in possibly the most distorted world I have ever attempted to see. No one but Ducati financed anything they do? They are in great financial shape? | ||
| Davegess |
Rocket you are correct that Corse is still a part of the holding company that owns Ducati. I misunderstood the sale of the Corse brand to Ducati Corse. There is seperation there, somewhat like Buell and HD are seperate companies under HDI. As far as doing well, Ducati may have funded a bunch of neat bikes but their very own financial report, the latest is not yet posted but others are, clearly show losses last year of 10 million Euro and 3 million so far this year. Overall bike sales are down. They have borrowed 100 milllion E and over half of that went to pay off previous loans. The have sold more shares which dilutes the value of the company especially when the share price is going down. The company is not doing well. I don't say they are broke or going to go broke but I wouldn't buy stock. | ||
| Jscott |
"The company is not doing well. I don't say they are broke or going to go broke but I wouldn't buy stock." What is the moral of the story? Buy stock in HD, buy motorcycles from Ducati? (Message edited by JScott on December 21, 2006) | ||
| Cluckcluckpush |
I would hope Pegram contests the whole AMA FX season, and be in the top ten. Too bad the Dealers and Buell don't have the racing "passion" like one flat-track kid from Ohio, and a company that supposedly can't balance a checkbook. The lone David against the huge japanese Goliath. In the meantime, I am excited about the number plates on the "new" XB, but the 1098 looks like a bike a privateer could race with some success, and how about a DS1000 air cooled 2 valve winning the Moto St GST class.....now who's first to fire back....blake? court? harvey mushmann???? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
This is a BUELL website. Lets talk about Buell......... and Buell's future. Let Ducati alone. They seem to know what they are doing. | ||
| Mcgiver |
I wish I had the time to just sit and write about all the wisdom I think I have, but I'm to busy working my ass off , so I can make a decent donation to Buell Racing. Maybe that's what Buell, and H.D. is doing also. My $300 probably equals their 1 million. Brian | ||
| Cluckcluckpush |
I though it was the racing section of a buell site, and apparently they have no future in racing. I gave a decent donation to the salvation army and the red cross, where it does some good. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Not content on spending their marketing dollars winning AMA dirt track and NHRA Pro Stock Bike championships in the US, the mother ship is considering a UK Factory Dirt Track team..... Gee, win on Sunday (XR750), sell on Monday (XR1200), what a concept. | ||
| Rocketman |
Busman, why does the Ducati thing rattle your cage so much you feel the need to throw insults at me? I'm not the one slagging Buell off. I'm just defending the ridiculous comparisons some seek to make with Ducati in an effort to make Buell look the better business model. Fine by me - until bullshit about Ducati is fed to the board. Any company spending huge amounts of THEIR PROFIT from previous years achievements on RESTRUCTURING the COMPLETE line up of motorcycles is OBVIOUSLY going to show a loss whilst the BENEFITS of RESTRUCTURING THE ENTIRE PRODUCT RANGE comes to fruition. Obviously one does not put all their eggs in the basket. They seek to guarantee their future by borrowing money whilst their company is buoyant and able to do so. That of course comes at a price at payback but isn't that how all finance houses make their money, off the back of the loan? You try borrowing huge sums of money when your company is on its arse and you'll be laughed out of the door. At least Ducati give the people what they want. Especially when it comes to racing. Not bad for a company that employs less than a thousand staff wouldn't you say? Sorry if this offends, but maybe it's time you started listening to what Buell fans really want. Give yourself a kick up the arse. Take some risks. Get out there and fight the good fight, and earn some respect for doing so. You know, like Ducati do. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Well Jose, they won't be spending much money if they do. Peter Boast has got big plans, but he's only got the one track, and it's in the arsehole of the UK, South Wales where not many will travel to see the spectacle. Pity. Mind you, it can't be too far from HD UK's head office! Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Not content on spending their marketing dollars winning AMA dirt track and NHRA Pro Stock Bike championships in the US, the mother ship is considering a UK Factory Dirt Track team..... Gee, win on Sunday (XR750), sell on Monday (XR1200), what a concept. That just highlights two very obvious facts about H-D/Buell UK: 1. This year we approached Buell UK for support for the UK Thunderbike series and got absolutely nothing. This just shows where H-D UK's priorities lie. 2. The UK Short track series runs on 1/4 mile or less Speedway ovals, with just one round scheduled to take place at this new 1/2 mile oval in deepest Wales. An XR750 would be a complete liability on all circuits except the 1/2 mile, and even then wouldn't even stretch its legs. This just proves that nobody at H-D UK has a clue about motorcycle sport, period. |
