| Author | Message | |||
     Jkhawaii |
This was a Oil analysis done by Blackstone labs of my primary/gearbox oil at 4,000 miles this was redline 75-90NS
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| Littlefield |
So I reckon Redline doesn't cause softening of the stator potting material like Mobil 1? Anybody else have long term experience with this? | |||
| Sloppy |
The problem isn't with the manufacturer, the problem is with the grade of oil, i.e., GL-5 -- no one has ever recommended a GL-5 oil in the Buell tranny that I know of. From Redline's Own product website on this gear oil: http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/10.pdf CORROSION PROTECTION "The extreme pressure chemistry used in many gear oils can be corrosive to brass and bronze used in synchronizers and bushings. Most gear oils are corrosive at temperatures of 200°F. Red Line Gear Oils are non-corrosive up to 300°F and the MTL® in excess of 375°F. A corrosive gear oil can shorten synchronizer life by half and can also contribute to rust problems." The way I see it, it's just a matter of time before it gets the stator terminals. I'm curious, why did you put this gear oil in your tranny... Redline has recommend their motor oil for Buell tranny's for approx. the last 3 years. Perhaps this has changed? Thanks. | |||
| Blake |
The way I see it, it's just a matter of time before it gets the stator terminals. I don't see it. I don't see how it could. The stator conductors are sealed against contact with the lubricant. Tranny lubricant as you well know accumulates metal particles and moisture. Any exposed voltage carrying conductor would have already failed if it were exposed to such an environment. That said, I'm now using the Formula+ extended interval and like it just fine. Buell transmissions don't have synchros. | |||
| Blake |
So I reckon Redline doesn't cause softening of the stator potting material like Mobil 1? Where/how did you conclude this? Actually I think you may have stumbled upon one possible root cause of stator failure. Ever ponder how much violence is happening inside your primary chaincase? There surely needs to be some give at the point where the wire leads become afixed to the stator to avoid extreme localized stresses/fatigue due to vibration induced flexure. If the potting is too sharply rigid it could cause high localized stresses as the wires vibrate back and forth. I applied some RTV at that interface to help alleviate that possible issue. Let's please maintain a fact-based view of this issue. Hearsay and guessing are not helpful nor educational. If there is actual evidence that Mobil-1 tranny lube degrades any of the materials associated with the stator, let's see it. Otherwise... it's probably more likely that if the potting on a failed stator is soft, it became so when the wires failed and started arcing/burning locally. (Message edited by Blake on December 11, 2006) | |||
| Blake |
Note in the oil analysis so kindly posted by JK, there is no listing for sulfur, which is the element of contention concerning corrosion of copper alloys. Does this mean that there was no sulfur compound in the Redline lube or that the lab didn't test for sulfur? | |||
| Sloppy |
I know there are points to disagree about on this, but I do know this. Neither the old or the new stator that I replaced had connections via the VC that were sealed from the lubricant. Covered? yes. Sealed? no. When I inspected my failed stator, the cover was still in place, but when I cut the cover open, the wires were coated in lubricant. Monitor the copper levels and see what happens. I hope nothing does... but I'm still curious under whose suggestion this lubricant was recommended. I may be mistaken on this, but aren't there brass rivets in the clutch anti-rattle disk??? | |||
| Blake |
Sloppy, I agree with what you know. I don't dispute that you found the wires of your failed stator coated with lubricant. Let's take a Columbo style systematic detective's view of the situation shall we? First, what is a "VC"? Second, can you please clarify what are you calling the "cover"? There is a protective sleeve that is in no way sealed to prevent lubricant from touching the insulation of the wires. Third, can you ascertain which happened first, the failed stator leads or the ingress of lubricant into them? The mere presence of lubricant on the copper conductor after a failure surely is not anywhere near conclusive evidence that the lubricant first leaked into and then caused the failure. Fourth, do you not in any way accept that the stator voltage carrying conductors MUST be sealed from ambient conditions, let alone the environment inside the primary chaincase, an environment that is expected to include metalic particles and moisture? | |||
| Blake |
My stator appears to be entirely sealed against contact with lubricant inside the primary chaincase. It's voltage carrying leads including their insulative/protective coverings have a short, about 4" (10cm), run from where they are potted/sealed to/onto the stator to where they pass through the sealing grommet, the plug that allows the voltage carrying leads to pass through the wall of the primary chaincase while maintaining a seal against chaincase lubricant leakage. Here's a picture of a spare tube frame stator I have:  | |||
| Sloppy |
1.First, what is a "VC"? VC should be VR (Voltage Regulator). It was late and I guess I had a momentary recall of Nam?  2.Second, can you please clarify what are you calling the "cover"? There is a protective sleeve that is in no way sealed to prevent lubricant from touching the insulation of the wires. Thanks for the pic. By cover, that would be the insulated wires attached at the pot. Basically, the potting / wire interface is not sealed from the lubricant. So it sounds like we all can agree that this area is not sealed from the tranny oil. Please note, that some people still disregard this fact. 3.Third, can you ascertain which happened first, the failed stator leads or the ingress of lubricant into them? The mere presence of lubricant on the copper conductor after a failure surely is not anywhere near conclusive evidence that the lubricant first leaked into and then caused the failure. I have no clue -- I don't think anyone periodically removes their stator to check if lubricant is on the wires . But, the wires I had were corroded -- rounded and thin tips. This was not a cold work fracture. Since GL-5 lubricants are corrosive to copper, it was a hypothesis that this was the cause. When more and more people had the same failure type (at the pot) while specifically using a GL-5 oil, the hypothesis turned into a theory. And there have been no reported failures of this mode when not using GL-5 oils. And here it rests, based on the fact that multiple people have had this failure while using a GL-5 lubricant and the fact that GL-5 lubricants can be corrosive to copper. And it still is a theory since people have reported the use of GL-5 lubricants with no failures. And here it stands -- it's a theory based on facts. As this is a forum to share ideas and not an SAE request for White Papers, I feel it is in the best interest of all to be cautioned against the use of GL-5 lubricants in the tranny based on the facts. Hence the advice of: "Only put recommended fluids in your vehicle. No one recommends GL-5's in your Buell and people have reported of problems with GL-5's." If anyone is looking for conlusive evidence, i.e., proof, I have none to offer. I would instead defer to the expertise of bonded Tribologists who, thus far, have not recommended the use of GL-5's in the tranny. 4.Fourth, do you not in any way accept that the stator voltage carrying conductors MUST be sealed from ambient conditions, let alone the environment inside the primary chaincase, an environment that is expected to include metalic particles and moisture? Hmmm, insteresting point, but oil is a very good insulator. Why would the wires NEED to insulated from ambient conditions (as long as they don't go to ground), oil is a great barrier from the environment, no? -- unless you choose an oil that is corrosive to copper  . From Wikpedia: "Transformer oil is usually a highly-refined mineral oil that is stable at high temperatures and has excellent electrical insulating properties. It is used in oil-filled transformers, some types of high voltage capacitors, fluorescent lamp ballasts, and some types of high voltage switches and circuit breakers. Its functions are to insulate, suppress corona and arcing, and to serve as a coolant." Sure with metal bits flowing around the tranny, it would cause the insulating properties to drop, but you tell me, what is the conductivity of oil after a service interval in the tranny? Your claim that tranny oil becomes a conductor is but a mere hypothesis, with no facts... Tell you what, next time I change my tranny oil I'll read its conductivity. My guess is that it will still read very close to infinity. Anyone want to bet? (Message edited by sloppy on December 12, 2006) | |||
| Littlefield |
I've got no facts. My question was based on threads I've seen on this forum. According to the prior discussions several folks have experienced degradation of the epoxy potting material around the stator when using Mobil 1 gear oil for extended periods. A chemical compatibility issue. Personally, I've run Mobil 1 products in all my bikes and like them. | |||
| Jkhawaii |
hmm... been some activity on this post lately. Redline recomended I use there 75-90 gear oil (though I used the 75-90NS) the lab I used did not or dose not test for sulfur, though my nose tells me there is lots in this oil. I'm running redline 20w-50 in the engine currently and went back to sport trans in the gear box. (dident like the sulfur smell) I dont know if its just me but the sport trans appears to be more slipery between the clutches than the 75-90NS and dose not grab as abruptly. dont know how the regular 75-90 would have been. | |||
| Sloppy |
This would be the third time that Redline has changed their recommendation. Initially they recommended Shockproof, then their Motor Oil and now it sounds like their gear oil -- I have heard of shops recommending their MTL gear oil line. I have a great respect for Redline products. I'll drop them a line and see what they say. | |||
| Djkaplan |
The shift forks look like they're made out of a copper alloy (sintered bronze maybe?). | |||
| Sloppy |
Yep, I confirmed that Red Line is recommending their gear oil for the tranny. I'm curious why they've changed their recommendations so many times, but, it's true. They claim that their GL5 is not corrosive to yellow metals even though their tech. sheet warns of it. So scratch my quote of "no manufacturer is recommending a GL5 lubricant" 'cause Redline now is. | |||
| Sparky |
If their gear oil is anything like their Shockproof line, I wouldn't run it in my primaries. Why not? Because the oil will deposit a green waxy-like goo on the stator coils. This will then lead to overheating & breakdown of its wires. Happened to both of my tubers. If it's not however, nevermind. As you were. | |||
| Blake |
Sloppy, I figure that before the potting goes on, an insulative sealant much like the varnish on the windings is applied, thus sealing the entire voltage carrying circuit from contact with tranny oil, no? If the potting adheres to the wire covering and varnish on the stator leads, how could it not act as a sealant? Seems to me it would be a fairly good sealant against ingress of oil. You know that when copper is exposed to sulfur it corrodes and develops a copper-suflide coating, But did you know that such a copper-sulfide coating then protects the underlying copper from further corrosion? If the sulfur cannot get to the copper, it cannot corrode it further. If the wire is flexing, the copper sulfide may crack and fall off. All bets are off. I don't agree with your anecdotal evidence summation. I figure there are plenty of failed stators for non GL5 gear lubes or oils. But like I said before, I'm using the Formula + now. This is just all for fun. Kill the @#$%! vile VC! Oops, must have had sympathetic flashback there. Merry Christmas and may all our stators last forever more.  |
Oil analisis