| Author | Message | ||
     Gearhead |
It's getting cold here and I've been eyeballing the race bike trying to figure out how the Thunderbike guys get their machines down under 410 lbs. My manual says that fully fueled a street XB weighs in at 460lbs! Now I've done the obvious stuff, removed the passenger seat, pegs, hacked up the subframe, hogged out the rear rotor holes, etc. but there is still a lot of weight to be shed to even lose 20lbs. off the bike. Is anyone willing to share any ideas on this?? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Well, there is a lot you still have open to you, it depends on how far you are are willing to go, and how deep your pockets are  On the cheap: strip out excess wiring and components in the electrical system. It does take a lot of time though. There are places you can remove excess material here and there, and swap out steel for lighter fasteners where there is lower stress on it. It gets expensive from there. Internal parts is where a lot of weight gets lost. Crank, rotor etc. Then there is really extreme: getting rid of the starter, starter ring on the clutch, and using a little bitty battery. (Message edited by diablobrian on November 13, 2006) | ||
| Gearhead |
Diablobrian, Thanks for the input. I'm currently bidding on another wiring harness on Ebay right now with that very thought in mind. I got outbidded on the last one with seconds to go so I hope I get this one. I figured it would be a good winter project. I originally considered removing the charging system but have since been advised not to and you're sure right about the cost of the internals! I guess I'm just going to have to go on the Pedrosa weight loss plan, of course I'd have to lose a few limbs to get to his weight! | ||
| Ironheadsporty |
would a capacitor work like in car stereos? | ||
| Diablobrian |
If you were running an old style total-loss system a capacitor is what was used. I don't think a capacitor can keep up with the demands of the ECM, Coil, and injectors without causing fluctuations in the power that the ECM doesn't like. I could be wrong on that though, I think the battery differs from capacitor in it's ability to keep a steady power output where the capacitor is good for providing a surge. In car stereos the capacitors store a charge and discharges it if the voltage in the system drops. It then needs to recharge because it has zero charge. Effectively, the capacitor is kind of an all or nothing device, and your ECM won't tolerate that kind of power. In older bikes that used the capacitors the electronics were much simpler, and had smaller demands that were less sensitive to the power fluctuations. Of course I could be wrong, and if anyone has better information I would be glad to hear it!  | ||
| Diablobrian |
Removing the charging/starting systems is a BIG gamble. It makes the bike lighter, but if the bike stalls, or you low-side it is very difficult to bump-start the high compression race motors. You do not want to have to push the bike a 1/4 mile during the race to get a start on hot pit lane! However, if everything works right the reduction in weight is a competitive edge. It's the old "You pays your dollar, you takes your chances" in action. | ||
| Reepicheep |
A capacitor would work just like a battery (provided you still have your voltage regulator intact). It would even (provided it was big enough) work just like a battery after the engine stops, for a little while. The difference is that capacitors charge and discharge *very* quickly. A battery is designed to charge up over an hour long period, and then hold that charge for weeks. A capacitor is designed to charge up in milliseconds (probably seconds for the big ones), but they bleed off and loose that charge fairly quickly (maybe 5 minutes for a big electrolyte). The car stereo deal would probably keep you ready to restart for 5 minutes or so, which might be good enough for a race application. A capacitor will take a lot more current faster then a battery will to charge up. I don't think that would blow a Buell voltage regulator, as the capacitor could never draw more current then the stator can produce, and the voltage regulator has to handle 100% of that current regardless (either shunting it to ground or shooting it towards the bike and battery). | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and one more thing to note. If an electrolytic capacitor fails catastrophically, it makes a big bang. We would sit there in the lab in college and (when we weren't shorting them out to weld them to door frames) we would reverse bias them to about 2x their rated voltage. Even little ones went off like a firecracker. Can't imagine what one of those beer can sized units would do. And if you were to short one of those things out somehow, you are talking instant mig welding. A battery will smoke and get pretty dramatic, but that would be nothing compared to what a good capacitor would do. Yikes! | ||
| Bud |
we striped or xb dragbike to the bare minimal and with the long swing arm ( heavy ) it makes 389 pounds on the scale .. and that's still with starter motor and battery and with one regulairy headlight and taillight how long is your race ? remove the stator + rotor + regulator ( i think about +/- ten pounds ) on a full battery you can run at least 45 min. you will need a good charger.. start here up with jumper cables to keep a full battery load ( pull out the lights fuses or remove the lights completely ) it will even make your bike a little faster we did not experiance any negative effects by removing it.. but thats just dragracing (Message edited by bud on November 15, 2006) | ||
| Anonymous |
Removing the alternator will save weight and engine inertia -- your engine will rev quicker, and you'll have more engine braking as well. Acceleration will improve slightly. Not a bad idea if you can keep the battery charged, but you'll want the factory slipper clutch offered for the XBRR to fix the engine braking -- it bolts onto XBs as well. | ||
| Anonymous |
The other anony says, here's where the RR pays off for the R racers with hardcore racing parts. Lose the stock starter, and go to an RR remote endurance racing starter setup which you can by from Henry -6lbs. Or use a more traditional remote starter cart -2 more lbs. Really want to get after it, remove the starter ring gear on the clutch -1 more lb. Go to an RR battery and battery box, which fits in the stock R tail -7lbs. The little battery won't start the bike with stock starter, thus the first item above must be done in combination with this, or use a large remote battery to plug in the bike for starting. RR Mg wheels -6 lbs. Call Henry RR chain drive swingarm kit, with the endurance racing axles adjusters, and Ti rear axle. You'll also need the RR rear rotor - 1 lb. Call Henry. Note the last few items are unsprung weight. email www.mettec.com and let them know you have a Buell RR or R. At some point in the near future they will be offering all the RR (thus most of the R) threaded hardware in Ti. (Axles, swingarm pivot, isolator bolts, everything)The -lbs are budget dependent. Machined/lightened stock RR foot peg supports -0.5lb for the pair. Call Henry Soon a l/w race muffler as seen at Mid Ohio on an RR, but with an inlet tube for a 1203. -14lbs over a stock 12R muffler. Call Henry Got some spare pennies laying about? Buy a a complete RR engine -40lbs  Call Henry Some of this is not yet in the RR catalog, but should be available over the next few months. | ||
| Gearhead |
WOW!! That's what I get for asking!! Thanks everyone!! | ||
| Gearhead |
Bud, I forgot to add that the races I run are 8 lap affairs, well within the 45 min. limit you spoke about. My road race bike has no lights, etc, not that different from a drag bike except for the long swingarm. Thanks for your thoughts and experiences!! | ||
| Sleez |
check these out for replacing batteries on a race bike! http://www.batcap.net/Indexnew5.htm they aren't cheap, but wow! | ||
| M1combat |
"Got some spare pennies laying about? Buy a a complete RR engine -40lbs Call Henry " •••• YEAH BABY!!!! (sorry Blake... That's the only word that does FORTY POUNDS justice ) THANK YOU BUELL . Forty pounds? Really? I'll bet it's dead reliable at 125RWHP too huh? Come on... I know you've tested it . Best new I've heard all year. CONGRATS to the engineering team. GREAT work . | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Also remember to go to the bathroom before the race. | ||
| Diablobrian |
That kills incentive to hurry to the finish line though! Actually, it is very important to remember to use the bathroom BEFORE putting your leathers on if you can. It will save you a lot of frustration | ||
| Jscott |
If you really need to lose fat, go see NCR! http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Nov/061116o.ht m They trimmed 84 lbs off of this Ducati SportClassic Sport 1000S. | ||
| Jscott |
Were it legal, there "Millona" would be an welcome addition to Formula Xtreme. http://www.ncrfactory.com/en/index.php  | ||
| Trojan |
Why wouldn't the Millona be legal for FX? It probably wouldn't be powerful enough to compete at FX though as it is based on the air cooled 1000DS. Now Thunderbikes would be another matter I think one of these came third in the Italian Supertwins race series in 2006. It was beaten by a MotoGuzzi MGS01 and a Vyrus 2D (Bimota Tesi lookalike). How cool is that for a top 3! | ||
| Jscott |
"Why wouldn't the Millona be legal for FX?" José should probably answer that question, but I will assume because of it's use of an aftermarket frame? "It probably wouldn't be powerful enough to compete at FX though as it is based on the air cooled 1000DS." Probably not, but DucShop racing had some success racing against 749R's and 675's with former VR1000 pilot Mike Smith onboard their Millona. http://www.ducshop.com/ducshop_racing.php "I think one of these came third in the Italian Supertwins race series in 2006. It was beaten by a MotoGuzzi MGS01 and a Vyrus 2D (Bimota Tesi lookalike). How cool is that for a top 3!" Xtremely (pun intended) cool! I think that is what most of us would like to invision the Formula Xtreme class looking like. With the XBRR being ontop that is! (Message edited by JScott on November 21, 2006) | ||
| José_quiñones |
I think it would be legal, it's a production race bike like the RR. If the RR was declared legal, so should this one. They say it weighs 295 pounds (wet? Dry?) as long as it is above the minimum FX weight of 350 pounds, I think it would be legal. Ducshop raced it in WERA/AHRMA this year, who knows, maybe they'll try the AMA next year. | ||
| Jscott |
"I think it would be legal..." and there you have it. "They say it weighs 295 pounds (wet? Dry?) as long as it is above the minimum FX weight of 350 pounds, I think it would be legal." That weight increase would probably negate any advantage that it has though. | ||
| Jscott |
José NCR just released a new Milona that has been further reduced in weight to 260lbs with 121hp! http://www.rubbermag.com/news/0611/061120_05n.html | ||
| Xbcrazy |
I put my race XB9R on a diet last winter. In the previous season, my bike weighed in at 425 lbs on a CCS scale topped off with fuel. I removed all unnecessary wiring, alum front fairing mount, alum rear sub section, a Yuasa battery and carbon kevlar full fairing. Bike went back on the scales this year at 403 lbs topped off. The battery was the single biggest savings. The stocker is 11.5 lbs. The Yuasa is 5.2 lbs. It starts the bike with no trouble even when I don't ride the bike for a couple of weeks at a time. I will get you the model number if you want. Pete | ||
| Xbcrazy |
Oh yeah, I also converted the belt drive to a chain drive from grandstanddesigns.com. The sprockets are much lighter than the belt pulleys. But i guess the chain is heavier than the belt. I wonder what the total weight savings of the item is? See I might have something to do at work tomorrow after all! | ||
| Neb25 |
Xbcrazy, Could I get that Yuasa number of the battery? Thanks | ||
| Xbcrazy |
The Yuasa battery is YTX5L-BS. Here are a couple of pics of the parts described above.     | ||
| Gearhead |
Xbcrazy, Thanks for your ideas! Your bike seemed light to begin with, now it is really light! Do you run a charging system or stock starter? | ||
| Diablomichael |
My bikes (xb12r) comes in at 400 pounds w/ gas Lost the starter little battery total re wire job 4 pound out of the crank wave front rotor alum. rear sub frame rear rotor drilled all bolt cut to the min. or we used nylon when possible. Michael | ||
| Ceejay |
have you ever seen that milona in CF? May even cause more of a weight penalty.-beautiful bikes...amazing that they can get them so light considering some of the nifty trinkets-concentric shock mount? I'd think the XB cases can go on a diet-but then that's why the XBRR engine is so much lighter huh. cool stuff. | ||
| Xbcrazy |
Gearhead, I run the stock system with starter and all. The bike has a 1169 big bore with Millenium cylinders and a host of of nice parts, but nothing that would lighten the motor. All my weight savings came from stripping the bike of all non essentials and the mods listed above. | ||
| Aeroe |
Anyone have a lot of experience with CF? Where does its strength lie? like tension, compression, shear? As you can tell, I have no experience with CF at all. Any and all knowledge would be appreciated. | ||
| Diablobrian |
CF for what? For bodywork : of course a cf piece is much lighter than a comparable plastic of fiberglass part, most of us are on a tighter budget than would be needed for a set of CF bodywork. The money can be spent more effectively elsewhere. For structural parts : the only real place you could use it on an XB is on the fairing stay, and for the rear subframe. I don't think that there is a lot to be gained over the tubular aluminum rear sub-frame or the skeletonized magnesium fairing stay weight wise to offset the cost of custom fabbed carbon fiber alternatives. remember you need at least 2 on hand so a crash won't end your race weekend. You can't weld CF or make a good structural repair at the track. (Unless you trust JB weld to hold the tail on while you hang off in the corners) As far as strength goes if can vary widely depending upon the quality, weave, and method of manufacture. Here are some specifics: http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/v823/rpt/106099. pdf The specifics of the individual part is dependent on many factors. Beware of the many purely cosmetic carbon fiber parts on the market. Ebay is loaded with these parts. Spend the money on good parts if you want it to have any weight or strength advantages. | ||
| Trojan |
As Diablo says, there is CF and then there is CF There are a few ways of making carbon fibre parts, some much stronger and lighter than others and better suited for racing purposes. The very best and the most expensive is Pre-preg carbon. This is already impregnated with resin (hence the name) and is kept refrigerated to keep it workable. As soon as it is taken from the fridge it starts to cure. This is laid up into a mould then placed into a vacuum bag to remove all the air bubbles. It is then put into an autoclave and baked. F1 parts and most professional race bodys are pre-preg and it is incredibly strong for its weight compared to glassfibre or even aluminium. 'Wet lay' carbon is basically dry carbon cloth on a roll that is laid up in the same manner as fibreglass matting. This is the cheaper version, and alhtough still strong it is nowhere near that of pre-preg and is heavier. Carbon does have some disadvantages, such as low abrasion resistance. This can be improved by adding a layer of Kevlar into the mix (as in our frame protectors) or by making the part from carbon/kevlar material (although Kevlar is hard to trim and tends to fray at the edges if not done properly). If you are looking for 'race' quality carbon bodywork then either Ilmberger or Sebimoto are a couple of the best around. Some of the very best, and a lot of what is used in MotoGP etc, is made in the former Eastern block countries. 'Structural' carbon fibre parts such as subframes are not cost effective for club level racing. | ||
| Slaughter |
I work in advanced non-metallics research engineering at Lockheed. Work in design/development/test/evaluation of materials and that's ALL I've done since high school and college. Did my time in motorsports in the late 1970's (met DuHamel and Pridmore when doing racebike development back then... and I'm talking Yvon and Reg) I've seen the carbon fiber stuff that Matt and Al sell and it is WITHOUT COMPROMISE - highest quality. You will pay more for it than fiberglass however - 'tis the nature of the beast. Carbon (generally) is stiffer for the same section than fiberglass, stronger, but (generally) more fragile. I can get free carbon fiber and build my bodywork out of fiberglass. Matt's totally right about the wet-layed up carbon. Save your bucks. It's just bling. The RR bodywork is also vacuum-bagged and autoclave processed. I've thought about building a different seat/subframe as a unit - save a little weight but just haven't gotten around to it. I'll just wet lay it up out of fiberglass KNOWING that I'll have to replace it once or twice in a year. | ||
| Blake |
Slaughter has carbon fiber in his veins. As to it's strengths, from a purely engineering view, it can be configured and oriented (layed up) to meet whatever stress environment is required. They build aircraft out of the stuff. It's lightweight and strong and stiff. But when it breaks, there is no yielding, no forgiveness; it just fails all at once. I have an old declassified video tape of a B2 Bomber structural test where we ripped apart a carbon fiber webbed - titanium capped spar section. That would make a good youtube submittal. At a couple hundred thousand pounds applied load, the fasteners holding the caps to the web like to turn into bullets. (Message edited by Blake on December 15, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
May I respectfully offer a slight rebuttal from the impecunious corner. First of all, I wish I had enough money to have a Buell race bike. I had one once, but the engine was so fragile that it was just too expensive to keep going...and I was just doing track days. These engines work much better on the street than at WFO all the time. My Honda F4 is a much more reliable track machine IMHO and the parts (the used market is huge) can be had for a song. I bought a slightly wrecked parts bike with 12,000 miles for $600! The only problem is that I have to buy a case of balloons when I do a track day, as they will only last one session when tied to the spokes to make the proper sound. If one is club racing on a Buell, having the most expensive CF body parts verses the wet layed-up "bling" CF isn't going to matter. How strong does a fairing have to be, as they are all going to crack if they make contact in a crash. The bling stuff is so much cheaper that you can have spares. You aren't talkin' about B2 Bomber (or XB for that matter) structural parts here. In club racing Buells, bling works just as good as autoclaved since the lap times are much more effected by the rider than a couple of ounces (the freakin' flywheels weigh 20 lbs)...so save your bucks and go with the cheap stuff...nobody will ever know you did. And if the truth were known, the main reason that you wanted CF on your race bike was for the bling factor anywho...now come on, fess up.  jimidan |
