| Author |
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Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 11:40 am: | 
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Blake ,
Not sure I understand you thought there,
As If ya put mods on the bike like the Warrior guys do ya just like I said add fuel or ya can subtract and they don`t have sny more air injection or Cats than the buells do..??
Being a sport bike or not doesn`t change anything??? |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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I'd be very surprised if the Warrior or any motorcycle that provides for fuel mixture tinkering doesn't ship with some serious catalytic converters and air injection. Buell motorcycles don't utilize either.
Being a sport bike makes tacking on additional stuff/mass much less desirable compared to adding stuff/mass to a cruiser or street rod type of machine. No? |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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Maybe its early or something Blake but you are losing me here, not following your points.. No cats or air injection on the warrior, Buddy of mine has one he can change pipes, air filters the list goes on and makes changes as easy as 123 through his ecm.. my question is why can`t buell/Hd do this , is it that they just want their expensive download $$$$$ for doing so on the HD`s and not even available to do so on the Buells?.. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
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There is nothing on a motorcycle that has catalytic converters in it that prevents one from changing the pipes. You change the pipes, you get rid of the converter(s) and then have a motorcycle that won't pass EPA regulations for anti-pollution performance.
I don't think you or I know exactly what the system you are describing on the Warrior really does or includes.
My point is that the EPA would not approve of any such fuel mixture tinkering unless it, even in its richest mode, still met EPA regulations.
From that logic one may then conclude that if such a fuel mixture tinkering system exists as an OEM feature, the bike must also include countermeasures to maintain the EPA compliance of the machine, most likely in the form of catalytic converters.
Where can I learn about this Warrior fuel mixture tinkering system? Yamaha says nothing about it in their online literature.
Buell nor any motorcycle manufacture may provide OEM stock equipment that violates EPA regulations.
Is your buddy's ECU OEM stock? If so, what exactly/specifically does it do? Or is it "for offroad use only"?
(Message edited by Blake on October 31, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 04:55 pm: |
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As to why H-D/Buell doesn't offer such a system... Either they deem it inappropriate, unprofitable, or maybe Yamaha thought of it first.
The whole thing, again from an EPA compliance standpoint, sounds very dubious to me.
(Message edited by skully on October 31, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 05:00 pm: |
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Google turned up nothing about an OEM Yamaha ECU that offers adjustable fuel mixture controls. I bet your buddy has one of these, or something like it. |
Josh_cox
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 05:00 pm: |
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Blake,
I knew about this feature in the 03-05 R6 ECM also. It is not advertised at all, in fact, you void the warranty by altering the map. There are something like four adjustments that make wide changes to the map. This is for fuel and ignition, and per each cylinder.
I hope your buddy is doing this on a dyno. He can ruin his warrior pretty easily if he can't see what is going on.
BTW the ecm thinks it's in diagnostic mode when making these changes. You have to remove wires from the ecm pins and such to get there.
There are much better ways to tune a bike, and truthfully, they are much less likely to cause damage. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 05:13 pm: |
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Josh_cox,
You are right , its just not the warrior as I have been told other metric bikes can and do as well, Blake when it all comes down to it I think it is a Dollar issue more than you say EPA thing... Every time HD. does a little mod on the HD. guys rides they hit them up for a stage ( like stage 1,2 and so on... ) download around this neck of the woods its like a 300.00 dollar for a 15 min. total labour charge.. Go to the warrior forum if ya want more info on it..
Don`t want to get an argument over this with ya, its there and its stock item,, Yes you have to take a wire out and jumper it took him like 45 seconds to do it..
Then he could add fuel etc. to each cylinder one at a time... IF the Japs can do that , then Why not us North Americans..
All epa has to be within the same I wd. think IF the metric bikes can be sold in the USA etc. same as Buell ? Yes or No??
I go back again that it is a $$$$ thing... Sorry...! |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 05:19 pm: |
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Here Blake,
HAve a look around in here if ya want...!
You may have to reg. first no Biggie...!
http://www.rswarrior.com/ |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 05:35 pm: |
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I will say, I do not know on how far ya can go with this stock setup, but for pipes /air filters it works for that ,Now for big bore I don`t know, or even if they have big bores, Its just I saw him adjusting his and he showed me after I replaced his belt for him which he Snapped after a burn out, but then again it had 41,000 hard miles on it...
But there are other bikes out there that you can adjust within the stock computer just by like what was said up above on that 600 etc.. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 06:35 pm: |
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What Josh says sure doesn't sound like a great feature to me. Certainly not the simple/easy OEM feature you made it out to be. I'd rather pay for Direct Link and be able to look at stuff on a computer screen.
What 600? 
I'm sorry, I just don't buy that any EPA compliant vehicle would allow easy tinkering with the fuel mixture, at least not unless their were adequate countemeasures in place to address EPA requirements.
I'm not interested in surfing around the rswarrior site looking for information on this issue. If you have a specific link, please that would be appreciated. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 07:26 pm: |
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what 600 =I knew about this feature in the 03-05 R6 ECM also as Josh said up above ya know R6= 600 does it not....?
Well Blake they do sorry to say, at least on the Warriors, Seen it done he can add fuel to each cylinder if he likes OR subtract Now I don`t know by how much, but for air filter/ exhaust mods he can...
If I get time or IF I get ahold of my Buddy whos on that site down the road I`ll get him to post me a link, But I`m like you enough time spent on the computer and all as well as in here on this forum and another Hotrod forum etc... Plus still trying to have a life away from the computers...
someone else perhaps can go searching... |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 07:40 pm: |
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OH btw...Certainly not the simple/easy OEM feature you made it out to be As you say.
what takes him like 45 seconds to a min. to get it done to where he can start the adjustments say a min. at tops whats so bad about that, takes like a min or so to get the seat off...Wow then you there seems pretty easy to me, I don`t think the direct link is that fast is it?
I'd rather pay for Direct Link and be able to look at stuff on a computer screen as you say... once again we are talking about paying are we not? Warrior no pay included in the purchase price when ya buy the bike... MY point Buddy is... IF Warrior and the likes can do that for simple mods THEN HD>/Buell should be able to do it as well, Instead of their rip off download stage 1,2,3 and so on for their downloads for Hmmm pipes and air filter etc..
Like I said I DO NOT Know how far one can adjust these values up or down but for simple mods ya can... NOW direct link comes into play here as well BUT can also use that for BIG BORES etc. right.. then one could buy that etc. Simple mods Should be able to to do so within either the stock ecm like above or at least be able to buy a RACE ecm say OFF ROAD USE only as Buell titles theirs now and at least be able to make these adjustments then..Follow me..Anyways enough on this. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 09:02 pm: |
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If this function really is on Japanese bikes, the reason they don't talk about it is that it is absolutely illegal by EPA/CARB/EU rules. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 10:23 pm: |
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I`m sure that Direct link or if the power commanders would work on the buells that those are far better units for playing with the ecms ( maps ), I do think what I was talking about with regards to the warriors not sure about the R6 up above that it does indeed add or subtract fuell ...But only through the whole curve from idle to redline...
So even that is not what we want in a perfect situation since one may have to add or subtract in between... Hope that clears abit up there Blake, I stand corrected perhaps in saying that it is the Cats meow... However I still wd. like to see a better ecm and funtions for it from Buell...
Doesn`t hurt to ask, who knows he does watch in here from time to time! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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Please define specifically what you mean by "better." |
Hogs
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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Hey Blake,
I think I allready said up above... Perhaps all others can chime in here for what they wd. like to see including yourself! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 01:35 pm: |
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Those features would be illegal. I'd like to see them too, but they are illegal.
Direct Link isn't that expensive.
I still like my carburetor best. |
45_degrees
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 02:09 pm: |
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Hey I like carburetors as well... I like how the Wakan is currently using a carburetor. Many times I've wished my XB was carbureted. But, what would really be nice is direct-injection, which would allow a higher-compression ratio and more power.
My bike was running way too rich at my altitude (would cough out little black puffs when I'd rev it up, and the exhaust tip was collecting far too much soot in a very short period of time). It's still running a little rich even with the O.P.S. and performance air-filter I installed. But this is a problem I've had with many motorcycles I've owned. I run my carbed bikes a little on the rich side so when I go down to the coast I don't have to worry about running too lean. Carburetors allow simple easy correction, so...
Why not just use a much smarter/more advanced ECM that can better compensate and adjust by itself without having to tinker with it all?? That way you would be sure you always had the optimum fuel mixture, no matter what mods or altitude... |
Hogs
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 02:59 pm: |
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Blake,
I Agree with ya 200 PERCENT On the Carburetor...!!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 05:31 pm: |
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Slaughter will soon be by to instruct us in our misguided ways.
But yes, we special few know what all truly wise men know. Carburetors rule. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 06:04 pm: |
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I for one do not see this as a good feature to have. Especially not from a manufacturer standpoint.
So you have an adjustable ecm that johnny jackoff is tinkering with in his garage and now that the fueling is all screwed up he melts a piston. Who do you think he is going to blame? Not his own dumbbutt self, he'll blame the manufacturer and try to get it warranteed, or he'll piss and moan to everyone and start ihatethismotorcycle.com to bash the product.
Now I'm not saying that it wouldnt be nice for tuning sake, but I mean REAL tuning, on a Dyno.
Tinkering with the mixture in a garage is not a good idea for the life of your motor, even if Mr. BrilliantTuner from ilovemymotorcycle.com said that these settings netted him 136 extra horse power and made the mileage 3.4x better, just not a good idea. |
45_degrees
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 06:22 pm: |
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Like I mentioned... "Why not just use a much smarter/more advanced ECM that can better compensate and adjust by itself without having to tinker with it all?? That way you would be sure you always had the optimum fuel mixture, no matter what mods or altitude..."
There should be no reason anyone should need to tinker with the fuel mixture on a fuel-injected bike... especially a street-legal, road-going bike. The ECM should be able to handle everything by itself. Mine couldn't as it was running super rich... so I believe a smarter/more advanced ECM is needed. I would rather have that to one I'd have to mess with to find the optimum mixture... and then have to tweak again when I got down to sea-level. That would suck. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 06:36 pm: |
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Mack (45_degrees),
Sounds simple huh. It ain't. The Buell DDFI-II is state of the art when it comes to an adaptive EFI system on a motorcycle.
Something is likely wrong with your O2 sensor from the way you describe your experience. |
45_degrees
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 06:50 pm: |
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I dunno Blake. I think my oxygen sensor is fine. I'll have to check it out.
But still, if the DDFI-II is that great, what's the point of Hogs complaint? I still think a "smarter" system with better software will come around. It sure makes no sense for it to be something the rider has to tweak... |
45_degrees
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 07:01 pm: |
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Of course... if drastic changes are being made like big bore kits and the like, then I can see when there is a point when one would have to start "tuning" and "tweaking" with different size injectors and the like. As they are now, I really don't care for fuel-injection on motorcycles... unless it was direct-injection, because the benefits would be great with direct-injection.
I really just don't like how complicated it is to figure out what's wrong with the added complexity of FI. If my bike is running rich with a carburetor... no problem, I have the knowledge and required tools to correct the problem easily. No computers or software required. |
Karstenfarley
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 08:43 pm: |
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Blake, kinna taking a rabbit trail on this thread... As you know I live smack in the middle of the city. In every direction I must ride through said city and spend alot of time in the 3000 to 4000 rpm range. I also know that this is in the range of the "learning mode". Why is the bike so jumpy (chuggy) while in that range? As soon as I get over 4K, its a smooth as glass. Can an ECU learn and not be so "obvious" or is this symptom even a function of the ECU? I think Al acutally found that the ECU continues learning (probably should be more like adapting) as high as 4500 but, at least on my bike, I don't notice the jumpiness up there.
Here's what I know from explanations from Skully. If, on day one, you ride home from work (30 min. trip) and its 100DEG F outside, the ECU may decide that it needs to pump in extra fuel, to keep the engine temp down. Now, on day two you wake up in the morning and blast off to work but now the ambient temp. is 60DEG F, it makes perfect sense to say that the ECU now decides that the previous value is too much and backs down on fuel. I've experienced this very situation. However, in the morning I can stay in the learning range and the bike will "adjust" all the way to work. Yes there are obvious solutions (speed up/slow down/upshift)which I do employ but sometimes the speed limit, and riding conditions just make that hard... which makes for a jumpy ride.
I say all that because my bike has been repeatedly dying in the mornings (new symptom). Even if I notice that its about to die and open the throttle a little, it just makes a loud coughing sound, pops, misses, then dies. I've had to restart as much as three times. Its even died while I under load pulling out of the parking space... sure makes for a good pucker factor in the morning when I'm still waking up. Sorry for the wordiness... your turn. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:20 pm: |
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The ECM's "learning" or adaptive fuel value (AFV) mode applies to the output of the O2 sensor. AFV mode comprises a very precise envelope of conditions including not only engine speed but also throttle position. You may be in the AFV range for engine speed but not so for throttle position, especially in city traffic.
The ECM takes queues from other sensors like the intake air temperature sensor to help it adjust mixture appropriately for varying temperatures.
My view is that there is something amiss with your bike by your description of its behavior. It is not operating properly.
If it is still stock, I'd say to first check/replace the spark plugs then check the intake manifold seals for any air leaks, then check the injectors for dirt/grime.
Do you ever get any check engine lights? |
Karstenfarley
| | Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 01:02 pm: |
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Still "showroom" stock... no chk eng. lights.
I'll check those things you mentioned... maybe a TPS reset too? Wonder if that trip to AK and back tweeked something. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 07:51 pm: |
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Had the same issues with an efi car I own.
Check out your earthing on the bike and improve the contact and size of the earth cables. |
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