| Author | Message | ||
     Pioggia_di_parata |
Ouch! | ||
| Trojan |
Interesting as the de-brief in the Buell garage promises to be, I think the post mortem at the AMA will be more interesting. The weekend has been a complete disaster for specators, sponsors, racers and mostly for the credibility of the AMA as a 'world class' organising body. The constant rescheduling and changing due to inclement weather is a joke. Is it because the circuit really is dangerous? In which case it beggars belief that they actually condone racing there at all, or is it because the pampered 'stars' Mladin and Spies refused to race if it rains? Either way the end result is that the AMA looks like it couldn't organise a P*ss-up in a brewery, and that is what will be remembered. In contrast the final round of the BSB championship took place over the same weekend and in pretty similar weather. All races and practice sessions were held on time and to schedule. I'm not saying this just because I happen to be British. I'm saying it because this is not the first occasion this season that the same situation has arisen in the AMA series and it about time they got their act together for the sake of the people that actually pay to watch and race at their sanctioned events. | ||
| Davegess |
Mid Ohio is marginal in the dry and nasty in the wet. Not enough run off room. poor drainage. US tracks are well below British standards | ||
| Coolice |
Yes but CCS/ASRA run in the rain. How about endurance races? I think its time the "chosen riders" ride in the rain. I agree with trojan, doesn't MotoGP race in the rain? Its the same as the Supercross "chosen riders" when it rains, they complain. Race fans schedule their time and travel to see a event, put it on, thats what pays their salaries. Learn to race in it,just back down a little. Plus it will create better rain tires, traction control, etc. for the street riders. And I agree that rider safety IS first, then tracks should either improve or AMA choose tracks that can run dry/wet safely. (Message edited by coolice on October 01, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
I just turned on the telivision and watched a fantastic FX race. If looking out for the riders' safety makes the AMA look silly, I support them looking silly. The track owners are making strides and we have the www.roadracingworld.com action fund which BadWeB and Erik Buell strongly support. Pretty sure the air fence saved Aaron Gobert from injury today. Motorcycle racing is improving in America. If you think the track situation it is bad now, you should have seen it just ten years ago. Where was the last death in a major motorcycle racing series? Wasn't long ago that a track in Japan claimed a victim was it? Was that MotoGP or WSBK, I cannot recall. Do they run IOM in the rain? Is that a safe circuit? Is it's governing body considered a joke? Just some added perspective for you rich British racing elites.  | ||
| Coolice |
Yea I saw the race too Blake, didn't like Terry G rolling the RR off the grid before the sighting lap  | ||
| Cluckcluckpush |
just wait till next year! | ||
| Davegess |
Do they run IOM in the rain? Is that a safe circuit? Is it's governing body considered a joke? They do not run in the rain. They do not run if the visibility on the mountain is too low for the Medevac helicopter to land. The AMA's problem with a place like Mid Ohio is that it is marginal for bikes in the dry. Laguna barely passed muster for the MotoGP boys, Road America does not but could with rework on one bit of the course. I doubt that Mid Ohio could even come close that standard. They get an event that costs the promoter a bunch of money and then they don't race. Can't make the promoters happy. Blake is correct, US tracks are far better than 10 yers ago BUT they have a long way to go. The AMA has to set policy and stick to it. If you knew they don't race in the rain and it looked like all day rain you would just stay home. Dave Gess www.pegasusracingnews.com | ||
| Jscott |
Does anyone know the causes for the dual-DNF's? Unfortunately we are the laughing stock of the AMA paddock. Neil Hodgson from post-race interview... "Q How about next year? Do you have any idea what's going on for you next year? A No, not really. I'm thinking of maybe taking up bicycle racing, because at the moment, that's probably my best opportunity. I think Buell were showing a slight interest. [Laughter] But I don't know. I really don't know. I'm actually starting to panic a little bit. Luckily, when I left school, with no qualifications, I was a builder, and I've still got my tools. I'm sort of superstitious. I didn't want to throw my tools away. So maybe I can throw my stuff together -" http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Oct/061001k3.htm | ||
| Jimidan |
Really, the Buells looked great except for the race itself. During the practice immediately before the race McWilliams was 6th in time. This was the first time he ever ran this track and he learned it very quickly. He looked very dejected (the old Shawn Higbee look of yesteryear) at the end of the FX race...like, "I came all the way over here for this?" He has had so many DNFs I can see why. I rode 330 miles in the rain for it. He reiterated how it is very difficult to develop a bike the way Buell has done it this year...on again off again. I did not get to talk to him after the race. He said Saturday that he would still like to ride the bike next year though, so I think everyone needs to write HD and request that they fund the program for next year. What do you think? | ||
| Jimidan |
Neil could be picked up by Ducati next year...for its fx team (my pick), or, by Yoshimura as Yates' replacement, or, by Jordan for Pridmore's replacement, or, by Buell (laughter). jimidan | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Is IOM a safe circuit? The answer is "no." What do their promoters say when fog rolls in? And I think you are wrong about Mid Ohio; they made a lot of changes to the circuit this Summer in response to rider's concerns. It is probably now on par with a Road America, but I don't know for sure. I'm going to miss Hodgeson and the Ducatis. Friggin AMA SBK tech rules are BS! | ||
| Trojan |
Is IOM a safe circuit? The answer is "no." What do their promoters say when fog rolls in? You cannot compare the IOM TT with any of the current 'man made' circuits. The TT is a unique event and one that is no longer part of any domestic or international championship, nor has it been since the 1970's. People race there because of the unique nature of the event and are all very well aware of the dangers presented by racing on real roads. Nobody is forced to race there, or feels pressured to race there because it is part of a championship. There really is no excuse in 2006 for a purpose made, modern circuit to be so dangerous that it cannot be used in the rain. The AMA Superbike series is probably (with the possible exception of Japan) the richest domestic series in the world, and top riders are paid more than WSB or even some GP riders, so lack of funding is no excuse. The last rider death at top level was Dajira Kato in MotoGP at Suzuka in Japan, and that circuit is no longer used for GP racing because of that accident. Is that what it will take for the AMA to put their foot down and stop using dangerous circuits? | ||
| Blake |
Apparently that is what it takes for FIM to put their foot down and stop using dangerous circuits. The IOM is a world class event. Why run it if it is so dangerous? Does it make the sanctioning organization look foolish? Are there double standards at play here? Some circuits here aren't suited for racing in the wet, there are issues like drainage and the type of surface, so when it rains a lot, we don't race on them. What is the big deal? | ||
| Trojan |
Hi Blake, I think you are missing the point slightly. The IOM is a world class event in it's own right, and is undoubtedly a dangerous circuit. However, nobody makes anyone race there, and as it is not part of any championship no rider has to race there purely because he is contracted to a team or sponsor, or because he needs to score points in any series. The IOM is a stand alone event and everyone racing there does so because they want to race and master the Isle of Man circuit. By including 'dangerous' circuits in a championship series the riders will always pressured to race there by teams, sponsors, fans and worst of all themselves because they do not want to lose points to their rivals. Modern 'man made' circuits should be capable of hosting events in dry or wet conditions, and if safety is marginal even in the dry then it has no place on the calendar. Suzuka had been complained about by riders for a long time before Kato's fatal accident, and nothing was done by the organisers. Why? Because Suzuka is owned by Honda. Because no rider wanted to be the first to boycott the circuit. Because pressure by sponsors, team owners, fans and organisers were too great. Only when a rider died in a totally avoidable accident was anything done, and even then it was due to pressure from riders and teams that forced the FIM's hand. BSB,WSB and GP have had to drag the circuit owners into the 21st Century by threatening not to use their tracks unless safety was improved, and things have improved markedly over the last few years. Hopefully the situation in the US will follow suit. At present there are very few (if any) US circuits that are up to the International standard required to hold a world class event, and even Laguna still needs to make significant progress on this. This is not only dangerous for riders, but also deprives the US of it's fair share of world class events. Until this is done then the AMA race scene will remain sadly and strangely isolated from the rest of the racing world. The AMA needs to have the strength of character to insist on changes being made before a fatality occurs. | ||
| Davegess |
Blake, the IOM does not run in the fog, rain etc. Everyone know this. Since the event lasts a week and there is no admission charge haveing a day of racing cancelled just means they race on different day. The riders who come do so because they want to face the challange of the IOM, they are aware of how dangerous it is. It pays very well so that attracts riders and doing well here will get you attention from BSB people so that also attracts riders. Both otf these things are carrots to get people to ignore the danger. Unlike a series that races at a dangerous track there are no sticks. Add in the fact that it is a timed event not head to head racing and the riders have a lot of control over the risk. The IOM people all say "the throtle goes both ways" no one makes you race there or push the limits if you do. Besides it is not dangerous compared to the road circuits in Ireland that many of these guys ride on. Now that's dangerous! | ||
| Zac |
U.S. tracks suck, it's that simple. BUT today AMA really races on the "cream-of-the-crop" safety wise of whats available. It wasn't that long ago that AMA raced at tracks like Loudon, Firebird Main, and Phoenix Int'l? They were acceptable years ago, but nowadays even Mid-O is "too dangerous". What happened? "The bikes have gotten too fast and outgrown the tracks" is the common excuse you'll hear. So why's that? Tire technology has improved substantially in the last 10 years. But there's another interesting trend. Back in the day superbikes were 750, and there were slower classes such as 250GP and Pro Thunder. So the increase in speed we see today is not just the natural progression of technology, but the rules are structured around bigger, faster bikes. Does anyone else think the bikes are too fast? Remember when 500GP was dominated 500 4-strokes (I don't either, but I've read about it). Is it time to reduce displacements and limit rim width to slow the bikes down to a level that would be "safe" for US tracks? Doubt it, the buying public needs their GSXR-1000s... Sorry for the rant. Just the view of a club racer who races on tracks the AMA won't touch, even in the rain... -z. | ||
| Trojan |
Hi Zac, These same concerns are being heard over here in the UK too. Most of our circuits were designed and built before WWII, and although safety has been addressed as an ongoing issue, the Superbikes keep getting faster and the tracks cannot keep up. What was a safe track last year is suddenly a narrow, twisty Kart track with no run off this year! I agree that something has to be done to either build new and safer circuits or limit the power of superbikes. Of course safer circuits also have their downsides simply because spectators are much further away from the action because run off areas are huge. One of the original ideas behind the current FX class rules was to introduce a 'mini superbike' class that was easier on tyres etc, but these are now lapping within a couple of seconds of the superbikes. I've got a better idea. Ban all race bikes except for the Buell XB (not the RR!). That will bring the speeds down and introduce interesting racing without any Hondas  | ||
| Jlnance |
I've got a better idea. Ban all race bikes except for the Buell XB (not the RR!). That will bring the speeds down and introduce interesting racing I realize you're kidding, but it has some merit. In Reg Pridmore's book he talks about a race series he was in which I think was called "Battle of the Twins." All the bikes were identical (as close as possible) BMWs. I suspect they were interesting races. | ||
| M1combat |
Spec races are always interesting for the fans, but not quite so much for the manufacturers... They aren't allowed enough playing around to gain an advantage on the competition. I think the solution is LOTS more airfencing... Why can't a racetrack re-arrange the track where it's "really" bad, and buy enough airfencing to line the walls ANYWHERE a rider may hit? I understand that mistakes are made (take Haskovec for instance... Everyone said "No one ever hits there") but that has to be less expensive for the racetracks. All that said... Racing is dangerous. riders know this. They certainly need to keep it in mind and keep the tracks honest, but they need to race in the rain as well. Just be careful in the dangerous spots. Racing is dangerous. | ||
| Trojan |
How about this idea: Every year the Buell factory should organise a 'Buell Nations Cup' race or series of races. Riders would be selected from the best performing Buell racers worldwide and they represent their own country in the race. Say 2 from each country. The factory supplies and maintains identical race tuned (to Thunderbike spec?) XB12R machines that are drawn by lots so that no advantage is gained by any one rider. National Buell distributors would pay for the travelling expenses of the selected teams. Throw in a few guest slots for Jezza and a few others and.....Bingo. Now hold it as a support race at one of the major bike meets (Laguna, Brands Hatch WSB, Daytona etc) and you have an exciting and winning formula....unless you race a Honda. | ||
| Buellshyter |
Mid-Ohio is a multi-purpose course. The track is designed with auto racing in mind. The pavement took forever to dry out and I'm speculating because of the formulation of the track favoring auto racing. I was told there was a fatality some years back and some modifications were done. I met three older fellows that came over from England to see the races and they didn't understand why they didn't race in the rain. They called them (the riders) "pussies", although I don't agree. One positive thing to come out of the weekend is a free ticket voucher for ANY event at M-O next year. | ||
| Ceejay |
I don't think that auto racing and bike racing have different asphalt formulations, I believe that because Mid-O had just redone/repaved thier track it hadn't fully hardened yet. Asphalt is a very pourous surface, thus since it just got paved over wintertime it hasn't been filled with dirt, rubber, crushed stone, and was able to hold more water-bigger holes=better water holding ability. Similar to a sponge. The track was terrible the year before, many patches some parts coming up, so they had it repaved. Running in the rain is probably not a huge deal, except for the two points leaders, but then a bunch of guys went down and everyone flipped... | ||
| Ceejay |
I do find the number of DNF's for Buell disturbing. If you look at the first and last race-the ones that stick in people's heads, 6 bikes-6 DNF's-100%(or 0% depending on how you look at it) Racing in general, that will happen, but were getting to the point is it better to run well-6th qual is damn good, and maybe not finish, or run mid to late pack and finish for a full season. Development plan?-or is just that hindsight is 20/20. | ||
| Slaughter |
Unless I totally mis-interpreted WHY the riders boycotted the qualifying - it was that AMA switched qualifying to heat racing instead of qualifying sessions. Meant more actual RACING before the FINAL and HUGELY more risk of throwing the bikes away compared to going out and after finding your groove, laying down a couple fast laps. Just my $0.02 | ||
| Anonymous |
The big issue with US tracks not being properly remodeled for motorcycle racing is that there is no money in it, as the spectator turn out is incredibly small. It's really a Catch 22 situation that will take something big to change. Hopefully H-D will fund a serious Buell effort next year, because that is one of the only ways we might get more spectators. If there was a serious effort from an American manufacturer with connections to H-D maybe that would do it. Otherwise, I see no reason why it won't remain the same as it ever was. Remember Team Hammer and why it was started? Same old stuff. | ||
| Coolice |
Trojan I like your idea. Spec class. Let the riders show there skills, not mechanically enhanced (traction control, ABS, etc. etc) Also racers at entry levels could buy the bikes and have an affordable race bike with parts/support. Detuned RR? | ||
| Blake |
I agree, a Buell Cup race at Daytona would be so much more of a draw than the Boxer Cup that BMW has sponsored the last few years. It really is amazing how darn fast the factory FX bikes have gotten. I see your point Matt, I just don't see the rescheduling at Mid-Ohio as anything so lame or frustrating. Laguna Seca is not up to par??? Good grief, it's been host to WSBK for some time and has recently undergone two MAJOR upgrades to address MotoGP concerns. I hope WSBK will be back at Laguna in the future as the AMA are pondering two events there. That would be great. Would be great if the WSBK would drop the spec tire rule too so that our local guys can join in on the fun too. And... What anony said. It is happening, just not as quickly. Pretty sure the new tracks at Barber Motorsports and the new one in Utah are up to spec safety-wise, or close enough to it that minor adjustments could meet MotoGP type standards for safety. Is Daytona any different than the Sachsenring in regards to safety? I still think your view is a bit unfair. | ||
| Glitch |
I think Barber was built for MotoGP, but something was amiss, and MotoGP said no. It's a great track, if I remember correctly whatever was amiss is no longer. I agree, a Buell Cup race at Daytona would be so much more of a draw than the Boxer Cup that BMW has sponsored the last few years. The trick would be to get H-D to sponsor. It'd get me there. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I think that if they did a Buell Cup event at Daytona it would be cool to use the old course for it as an added draw. It could be a great event with last lap draft passes at the line, just like the good old days. Glitch: the problem at Barber was the barrier at the outside of turn 1. It has been moved and the "trap" has been widened. Didn't the MotoGP officials also look at Homestead as a possible track? Of course the new track in Utah would be a contender now too. (Message edited by diablobrian on October 02, 2006) |
