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Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 12:45 pm: | 
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Nicky has beaten Rossi six times this year
No he hasn't. He's finished ahead of Rossi six times this year. How many times he's beat Rossi on a level playing field? Not once.
Rocket |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 01:10 pm: |
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Rocket, You're really splitting the hair on that one  You knew exactly what Blake meant and Nicky has beat Rossi 6 times this year by finishing the race in front of him -- that's beating which can be exclusive from winning the race.
It's racing so it's a level field on any given Sunday 
G2 |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 04:01 pm: |
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Sorry Blake, but you're dead wrong. Nicky is a great rider, but I don't think he has the talent Rossi does. Yamaha was having major problems with their bikes most of the year. Hayden has what a lot consider the best bike on the track. Rossi crashes, hurts his hand, has major chatter problems with the bike, which Yamaha resorted to cutting the frame of the bike to try and solve, yet he still can win the Championship.
Yes, I believe that with all the other issues Rossi and other riders have been having, his leading is mostly luck.
Only time will tell. I hope he wins it, but most will consider it a hollow victory because the best weren't at their best.
But that's racing.BTW I still think Rossi will win. Also don't think Haydaen is the #1 rider for Honda. Don't forget, Pedrosa is Spanish, Repsol is a Spanish company and MotoGP is run by Dorna, a Spanish Company.
You know damn well Pedrosa will be the #1 rider for them next year, whether they come right out and say it remains to be seen. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 05:10 pm: |
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Big D, I do know what Blake meant. He meant that he thinks Hayden is better than Hayden actually is. The evidence from race to race does not appear to support that despite him finishing in front of Rossi six times so far this season. Not once this year has Hayden beat Rossi in a direct head to head fight, though I'd relish watching such racing.
Rocket |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 05:29 pm: |
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Actually most consider the bike Pedrosa rides the best on the track.
Nicky's been riding a test mule loaded with prototype one-off parts all year.
He has not ridden the "same bike" in two successive races all year long.
If he wasn't saddled with ALL of the development work he'd probably have
more success on race day.
I know that's a lot of "what-ifs" but I'm not the only one that has observed this.
Hopefully the team will allow him to ride a bike that is consistent for the last
races and at least give him a shot at the title and let their test riders do whats
left to be done, at least during the season. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 05:56 pm: |
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Rocket, I, too, would love to see them mix it up more.
I wish Nicky would get the "Rossi Treatment" from Honda, but he doesn't.
IMHO Rossi's the only current rider with Dunlop like cajones and talent to match. How will it shake out? Nicky's one of the best motorcycle racers in the world, but he doesn't have the ability to match Rossi on a day to day racing basis.
G2 |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 05:59 pm: |
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I don't think Honda would let there points lead be hampered by prototype equipment on the bike nor do I think Nicky got to where he's at using a bike all season long as a test bed. Honda is smarter then that. I do hope Nicky pulls it off but I also think he is not in the same ring as Rossi...I don't think anyone is. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 07:21 pm: |
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Bads1 They have certainly been using Nicky as a development rider all year.
He is the only rider on the grid with an 07 spec rc211v and the reason he has been
so slow in practice, but faster on race day all year is because of testing new parts.
It's not the strategy I would use, but Honda has been doing it and it is well documented.
Nicky is a great diplomat, but he did say in one interview that he would like to ride
the same bike twice this year. (or words to that effect) In one of his recent interviews.
He also commented on how bad for his ego it's been to not be one of the guys chasing
the fastest lap times in practice and not being able to really work on speed until he
gets to qualifying because he's evaluating new parts.
That has got to SUCK. |
Bdabuell
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 07:28 pm: |
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Honda have already won the Manufacturer's title for this year (a record 17th time) and that's enough for them. Call me Mr.Cynical but do they really care if Hayden wins the Rider's championship ? I think not.
I seriously doubt that...I'd find it pretty unlikely that your average buyer knows (or cares) who won the manufacturers' title...that's not going to be the deciding factor in the brand they purchase
...but everyone can relate to an individual...especially if he's a world champion...THAT sells motorcycles |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 08:57 pm: |
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An 07 spec RC211v??? The new spec bike is a 800v4. It hasn't been raced yet. Pedrosa has ridden it before Nicky has according to news reports. Nicky has been testing clutches for the last two races regarding his starts. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 09:06 pm: |
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the 800 are 08 spec.
His parts testing goes all the way back to the beginning of the year.
They put an 06 spec clutch in his 07 engine on the 2nd or 3rd race because of issues.
The latest rounds have had him testing more new clutches, which is his biggest concern, but
that's not all he's been testing. Chassis and suspension parts have been a big part of it.
(Message edited by diablobrian on September 28, 2006) |
Bads1
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 09:16 pm: |
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http://www.crash.net/news_View~t~Honda-800-breaks-cover--V4-engine-~cid~6~id~137 909.htm
This says 07,Suzuki and Ducati have already made the switch. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 10:39 pm: |
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My mistake, Nicky is the only rider on a full 06 spec RC211V with all others being on 05 spec then.
6 of one half a dozen of the other.
The chassis of the 2 models are very different, as are many internal parts, although the clutches
obviously interchange, but clearly it's not a perfect marriage either, or Nicky wouldn't have to make
a choice each race between a good launch and having his clutch start to fade mid-race. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 03:16 am: |
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Rossi has 8 wins at Portugal and Spain over the last five years. Nicky has zero. 12 points separate the two. You do the math.
And next year Rossi will also win the championship on a 800cc Yamaha, and beat Agostini's record for Grand Prix wins.
(Message edited by jima4media on September 29, 2006) |
12r
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 04:03 am: |
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I seriously doubt that...
Honda aren't in racing for the benefit of any individual. The Japanese factories place enormous importance on the Constructor's championship and the technical advantages they gain from experimenting with prototype motorcycles. Look at Honda's publicity materials for their sportsbikes - there's a blurred picture of Hayden in the background but the RC211V is everywhere.
Irrespective of whether Hayden wins or not, the marketing bods can put a great spin on 17 Constructor's Titles (more than MV). Riders come and go, the big H is still here. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 04:25 am: |
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If you need something else to show the difference between the two riders, take a look at what other people are doing on pretty much the same bikes.
With the exception of Colin Edwards in Holland (even though he did throw it up the road at the last corner), nobody else has managed to get a Yamaha M1 anywhere near consistent wins or even podiums this year, last year or since the M1 was conceived.
Melandri, Stoner, Tamada and Elias have all put in good performances this season on LAST YEARS 05 Honda that doesn't have the updates that either Hayden or Pedrosa have benefitted from this year.
This is because the Yamaha is still an inferior all round package than the Honda, but Rossi makes it look a lot better than it actually is. Put everyone on equal bikes and you wouldn't see Rossi for dust.
Hayden has been testing new stuff this year, but as the number one rider it is up to him to say what he runs and what he doesn't. If he was beating Rossi consistently on the track then I'm sure Honda wouldn't be so desperate as to keep throwing new parts into the mix to try to catch up.
This brings me back to the point I made earlier, that Nicky isn't yet strong or confident enough to shoulder the No 1 spot in the team and dictate his own setup. There is no way that Rossi would have put up with that kind of treatment from Honda.
Unfortunately I think that if Nicky doesn't lift the title this year then his job will be on the line after next season.
Honda have a queue of people lining up for MotoGP slots right now, including Andrea Dovizioso, Shuhei Aoyama, James Toseland and David DeGea. All of these have been 'promised' a Moto GP ride in 2008 by Honda, and loyalty isn't one of Honda's strong points. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 04:59 am: |
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I've got to say, in all this race stuff we're all spouting, it's pretty obvious to me that Matt is a true racing pundit.
It's a pleasure reading your Moto GP / racing insights Matt.
Rocket |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 07:53 am: |
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My sentiments (reiterated) are: ABH
Anybody But Honda
Anything But Honda |
12r
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 09:05 am: |
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Great pic on soup:
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2006/mgp/motegi/4/6921.htm
 |
Glitch
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
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ABH! all day every day! |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 01:15 pm: |
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We'll see won't we.
Jim,
Math? I can do that. If Rossi wins both races, Hayden will win the championship with a two point margin if he finishes 2nd in both races. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 01:53 pm: |
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There's a chance that Rossi won't finish first in both races, but 1st or 2nd Hayden will be in 3rd at best. Rossi wins if my math is correct.
Given such, Rossi can hold station in 2nd place and defend off Hayden, which would be a good championship winning tactic.
Rocket |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 05:52 pm: |
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Didn't Nicky just sign a new 2 or 3 year contract with Repsol Honda in the last week or so?
Ducati and Yamaha were apparently courting him for the 08 season too.
I'll bet there were some changes made in his contract pertaining to how much control is in his hands. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 29, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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First place is just a five point advantage over 2nd, and 2nd is just a four point advantage over 3rd. Rocket, your math is accurate, with a Rossi win/Hayden 3rd and a Rossi 2nd/Hayden 3rd, Rossi would win the championship by 1 point.
However two instances of Rossi 2nd/Hayden 3rd would not win Rossi the championship. In that case it would be Hayden by four points.
It's too bad that MotoGP doesn't award points for pole or laps led.
If Nicky is able, he should stick to Rossi at or near the front and not show him his strengths on track until the last lap, in other words, pull a Rossi on Rossi. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 06:29 am: |
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Blake, are you actually suggesting Capirossi could take two more wins  Wouldn't that be something.
Here's one for you Blake.
Is my math correct then if, no matter what scoring position Hayden finishes, he's at least one place ahead of Rossi in one race, and he finishes right behind him in the other race, again no matter the point scoring position, Hayden wins.
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 09:43 am: |
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Yep, of course, he's leading by 12 points. Max margin for one place ahead is just 5 points between 1st and 2nd.
1st 25 points
2nd 20 points
3rd 16 points
4th 13 points
5th 11 points
6th 10 points
7th 9 points
8th 8 points
.
.
.
16th 1 point |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, September 30, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
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The best Hayden has ever done at Valencia is last year's 2nd against Rossi's 3rd. But Rossi has won Valencia in 2003 and 2004 with Hayden coming in 16th and not at all.
In Portugal Hayden came in 7th last year, N/C in 2004, and 9th in 2003, while Rossi came in 2nd, 1st, and 1st in those respective years.
History is a pretty good predictor of the future. |
12r
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 04:40 am: |
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Hayden could win the championship at the next round in Portugal if:
* Hayden wins the race and Rossi finishes no higher than 5th
* Hayden finishes 2nd, Rossi finishes no higher than 10th and Melandri doesn't win the race
* Hayden finishes 3rd, Rossi finishes no higher than 14th , Melandri finishes no higher than 4th and neither Pedrosa nor Capirossi wins the race.
If none of these scenarios occur the championship will be decided in Valencia with Hayden, Rossi, Capirossi, Melandri and Pedrosa all capable of winning the title. |
Blublak
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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12r..
Let me see if I've got this race on track here..
Rossi's bike blows up on lap 5 and he retires. 
Melandri has a tire problem and goes a lap off the pace getting it fixed. 
Pedrosa slips (his bad knee you know) and falls off while trying to mount the machine and can't muster any more then a top five finish due to the pain. 
Capirossi gets caught behind three back markers running in close formation (abreast) and can't finish any better then 4th. 
Hayden has the best race he's run since (or before) Laguna and wins cleanly.
And Nicky wins the championship. |
12r
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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That's about right Blu |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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Nope again this is wrong. There's still one formidable rider who could spoil the party for both Hayden and Rossi.
12r, you forgot to include ".......what if Troy Freakin Frankfurter.........."
Rocket |
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