| Author |
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Jayvee
| | Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 05:15 pm: | 
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Hey that Johnson Leathers is only 1.5 miles from where I work.
Since I want a back protector for my Vanson jacket, how would one get one of those "kick-back" deals?
My DOT helmet is for going to the grocery etc, the SNELL is for highway/fast stuff. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 06:44 pm: |
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Dave, we'd likely need an MD and a couple PhDd. I'm no PhD but I could cipher the structural analysis scope well enough. The problem is that I'd have no way of knowing allowable brain loading. That is probably the biggest single factor that needs to be quantified and it involves not just physiology but also statistical probabilities. Yeah, a couple PhD's and and MD could have some real fun with the problem.  |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 07:09 pm: |
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It's pretty much a given that the Arai RX7 Corsair is regarded by many as the safest motorcycle helmet available. Many include racers themselves.
Interestingly, MCN UK reported recently that the top flight racers wearing RX7's won't buy European market models, instead they wear Snell approved variants. I find that odd as I didn't believe Arai differentiated between Euro and US markets. Maybe the racers are simply hedging their bets.
Rocket |
Henrik
| | Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 09:40 pm: |
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... no way of knowing allowable brain loading
You and most everybody else . There are very few studies attempting to quantify head trauma and what type and level of impact leads to what kind of injuries.
AFAIR there were a few cadaver studies years ago and lately I think some researchers have begun using head models with sensors implanted to get a better idea of what happens and how. But even with an idea of how the physics work, there is still no firm information wrt. what effect any of it has on the brain.
I wouldn't mind one bit getting involved in research like that. Hmmmm ...
Rocket; haven't heard anything about different versions for US/EU. I'd be surprised if a reputable company such as Arai would stoop to something like that.
Henrik |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 06:18 am: |
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I don't believe Arai are stooping at anything. They're catering for different markets I'd imagine. The only reason I say that is sometime ago an Arai rep told me the Asian market dictates Arai make a helmet specifically designed for the Asian (Far East - I assume?) market because of the size and shape of peoples heads within that market destination.
I don't know if that's true or not.
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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>>>>AFAIR there were a few cadaver studies years ago
And that research was featured on Modern Marvels last week. Crashworthiness, starting with the two guys and Volvo up through present, was featured.
The cadaver studies were discussed, including the number of times they could use the same one.
It's now been abandoned for more accuarate models. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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Can we get some volunteers to get whacked in the head with a hammer to see how hard a hit it takes to damage a Badwebbers brain?
Oh wait a minute they may not be able to tell the before and after for us Badwebbers  |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 01:10 pm: |
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I know of a couple a fellas that have clearly exceeded the acceptable brain loading -- gimme a call!
break break
if memory serves, a helmet manufacturer has to submit helmet(s) to Snell for testing, and then pay em an extra fee to afix the snell sticker to each helmet shipped that way -- could very well be that Arai simply chose to save some dough for lids going to a market in which Snell certification may not have the perceived value is has in the states? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 03:04 pm: |
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Arai Tech Info
A very informative look at helmet manufacture. Glad I looked.
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 01:12 am: |
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Arai are good helmets for sure, but I think that much of the respect they get concerning their integrity is due to their higher price. The safest helmet is most likely the one that fits your head the best and is comfortable. Good fit helps with impact protection and comfort helps with getting folks to actually wear the thing.
Henrik,
I'm with you on being interested in that study.
Dave,
I bet that you know a few folks that could use a good whack upside the head. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 06:38 am: |
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Nah I don't agree Blake.
No one can argue that a good fitting helmet is paramount to ones safety, but that doesn't make a less superior better fitting helmet the safer option.
A poor fit is a likely scenario anyway even by the most safety conscious. Many buy helmets based on style and looks, and the lack of not knowing what really is a good fit or how to even tell if a helmet is a good fit. Then there's the helmet size itself. I can only think of AGV for instance, who make two different size shells across the small to extra large spectrum. Then they have in between sizes within the two different size shells. That is to say, An AGV Ti tech medium small is the largest size in the smallest shell, where as the same helmet in medium large is the smallest helmet in the largest shell. This size difference is in an effort to allow AGV to find a better fit by narrowing down the spectrum, but one can't guarantee any helmet is a perfect fit by a long chalk so we get back to the Arai RX7.
When anyone buys a helmet they'd have to be stupid to get one that was obviously too large. Getting one too small is nigh on impossible as you wouldn't get it on your head. At least not with any degree of comfort. So we'd have to assume that most any helmet is either a perfect fit for the individual or somewhere close to, even though perhaps a tad too large or too small. If that's the case, which I believe it is, that still makes a slightly too small or slightly too large fitting Arai the safest lid available and more likely so despite the not so perfect fit when compared to helmets of lesser quality and construction that probably offer the same choice / problem of fit.
One other thing to consider with Arai. Any Arai dealer will tell you they are expensive and offer little mark up. That's perhaps because the manufacturing process isn't cheap being that they are all hand made.
I have many helmets including Bell Star 1 and 2 I used years ago. I have Simpson Bandit and RX7, and an older Aarai RX7. The Bells are way too heavy by today's standards. The Simpsons were designed for car use and are terrible for lift at high speed, and are heavy. The RX7 is really noisy. Then I have a cheap plastic Airho Warrior, which is claimed to be the quietest helmet on the market, and you know what, it probably is. It looks fantastic for Buell riding as it's that streetfighter style thing, especially with the dark tint visor over matt black. It's very comfortable, incredibly quiet, yet I've come to realise the safety belt style fastener is not ideal for safety and the thermoplastic shell is probably not as good as I thought it was when I studied the form three years ago. So I am wanting to buy a new Arai RX7 Corsair because it is a proven top quality helmet and the price won't decide for me. The only other helmet I've considered is the AGV Ti tech, but I'm a little put off by the latest findings in MCN.
Anyways, Just a heads up 
Rocket |
Henrik
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 01:15 pm: |
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Helmet fit;
Very good point. I think many people wear helmets that are too big - I know I did for years, until an Arai rep educated me at an IM Show years ago - and I don't usually consider myself stupid  . I'd been wearing a Shoei helmet for "round head" shapes and after wearing it for a short time felt like it was bolted to my head at two spots front and back. So instead of finding a shape that fit (I didn't know it existed) I went up a size ...
I then went with an Arai helmet of the right shape - and boy was that an improvement
As for the size shape question it's actually more complicated than that, in that changing the size is not just a question of making all dimensions bigger or smaller (called Xeroxing). When you change the size the relative dimensions change as well and not by the same amount.
We've worked with a similar issue in designing prostheses for knee replacements. We of course needed quite a few sizes, and Xeroxing does not work.
So if a helmet manufacturer does not do the necessary design work for the complete range of helmets, the end user may not end up with a good fit, even from a helmet of the right size and supposed right shape.
That said, I recently switched from an Arai Quantum GT helmet (have been wearing that model for years) to a Shoei X11. I did a bunch of back-and-forth testing at an IMS and realized that I could get a tighter, yet more comfortable fit with the new, more oblong X11 shape than I ever could with the Arai. The Shoei X11 felt way tight at first and I was hesitant to buy it, but on my last trip I wore that helmet for some 2300 miles with nary a thought to helmet comfort. It's fairly quiet too - certainly better than my old Arai - and with absolutely no lift at speed.
But barring poor fit, I still think there's ways to go before we'll see a true improvement in helmet protective qualities. Lack of research is one factor. Unfortunately frivolous lawsuits is another, maybe bigger one. No manufacturer is going to go out on a limb, even with a better design, only to get sued when someone gets hurt and claims it was due to the change in design.
Henrik |
Henrik
| | Posted on Saturday, September 23, 2006 - 01:18 pm: |
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Oh, and Jackie - like I said no kick-back
If you swing by Johnson .... Leathers that is please scope out all their other protective gear, maybe with some photos and report back on your impressions.
I may buy a full replacement set of armor from them for my Rukka riding gear.
Henrik |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 03:13 am: |
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Rocket,
My understanding is that Shoei and Arai also use two shell sizes. I know Shoei does. Pretty sure Arai does too. I wouldn't be surprised if all the major brands use two shell sizes.
Henrik,
I went through a similar experience with mal-fitting helmet. It was a Bell Tourstar. The Shoeis I've used since have been wonderful. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, September 24, 2006 - 08:24 am: |
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Blake, I know most helmets offer varying size shells but AGV is the only one I know that offers the two size shells across the medium fit by using both shells. They make this possible by having four inner shell sizes, one every two shell sizes, which is how AGV arrive in the middle size with the above.
So there's a medium size in the small shell, which is referred to as medium small. This would be the largest helmet in the smallest shell. The smallest helmet in the largest shell would therefore be a medium large.
I assume AGV do this as medium heads are more common. That said, I know of a few big heads that frequent the BadWeB, lol.
Sorry I didn't explain it clear enough previously.
Rocket |
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