| Author | Message | ||
     Alans |
Hello. I have been lurking here for a couple of months and decided to join in as I have a question. I don't currently own a Buell. I have a HD RoadKing, and a Special Construction (TC88 engined) bike that I built and just got registered for the street here in Cali. (If anyone needs the lowdown on the hurdles of registering a bike you built, send me an e-mail and I'll tell ya' all about it...) My current plan is to purchase an 07 or 08 Buell XB12R, raise the bars, lower the pegs, add some bags and call it a SportTourer. I'm like most of the rest of you guys - I really like the way Buells look, and reportedly handle. I heard a rumor on another board. Someone there mentioned they'd heard (friend of a friend thing) that Buell will offer a Rotax 60-degree, water-cooled twin in their bikes, in 08. That seems sort of 'treasonous' to me as it would represent a pretty big divergence from the Harley camp, using a non-HD engine. Still, I get the sense from what I've read that Buell is allowed to be their own company and enjoys at least some autonomy when it comes to design. If that's the case, the idea of a Rotax engined-Buell seems feasible to me. Especially if... I have also read that Mr. Buell would never countenance using other than a 'traditional', air-cooled engine in these bikes. Yet there is also the rumor (I am the rumor monger, I guess) going around that Sporties get water-jackets for 08. What if that were the case, and Mr. Buell, faced with an unsavory choice - putting a water-cooled sporty engine in his bikes - chose instead, having to go water-cooled, to select a water-cooled engine that was world-class in terms of performance? Has anyone heard this same rumor, and/or, am I smoking crack? Thanks, and hi to everyone... Alan | ||
| Buellman39 |
read the tread named water cooled | ||
| M1combat |
I believe we'll see an air cooled engine that makes more power and torque than a rotax. Fewer RPM's, more weight probably (but not a lot, less than the rolling frame difference  ) and life will be good . | ||
| Alans |
Yep Buellman39, I'd read that thread and went back and refreshed myself on it just now. I would think that when the current line of air-cooled engines dries up - so to speak - Buell will have to do something. There doesn't seem to be a discernible direction from Buell in this, just tantalizing hints - rumor that Sportys are going water-cooled, 25th anniversary for Buell next year... M1combat, you could be right. And it appears that if Buell did go 'water-cooled', there's a number of die-hard Buellers who would be pissed. There also seem to be a number who would be thrilled. It seems equally divided, or nearly so, to me. But talk is cheap. How many die-hards would really hang-up their Buell jackets if the marque went water-cooled? I suspect only a few people would turn away simply due to a water-cooled versus air-cooled power plant. Just my opinion. Still being new to the Buell world, my impression of it at this point is that the bike fills a niche within a niche - nimble, air-cooled, sexy-styled bikes within the bigger sport bike genre. I'm no engineer, but it seems like they have a state-of-the-art, world-class platform with a rather 'retro' engine installed. It seems a pretty weird combination to me. Like I said, I'm new to this... From the little I know about corporations - I'm a line-level manager in one - $$ is the name of the game. If something can't be shown to increase the bottom line then it won't have much impetus in the culture, nor in practice. Even people-related agendas have to tie back to the bottom line, and making it better. Corporations do not make decisions on altruistic grounds. Everything the corporation does is an investment in itself, and there has to be a demonstrable return, or the effort will be abandoned. Corporations are also very smart. They look ahead. Years. And years. They have 5-year, 10-year plans... That said, I think Buell is about to change in a radical way. Which brings up a question for the engineers in the group...how feasible would it be to hang a different engine in a Buell? Is the frame purpose-built for the current sportster engine, or could another engine be adapted without much fuss? Thanks for putting up with me. I really want a Buell, and I'm trying to figure out which way the wind's blowing with regard to major changes in order to see if I should jump now...or wait a little... | ||
| 45_degrees |
I don't think they are investing so much time and money into the XBRR to simply throw a completely different liquid-cooled engine into the street bikes. I owned an Aprilia with the Rotax 60 and hated it... and it was the version "tuned for torque" in the ETV1000 Caponord... it bucked and jerked and refused to run under 3000 rpm even under a light load... even in first gear! It will never happen. | ||
| Josh_cox |
There are already plans for models out through 2015 as of last year. What they are, very few if any of us know that is for sure, but expect big things from Buell. I hope to see new stuff for 08. Like an updated Firebolt or Blast, but water-cooled? I don't see that being likely at the moment. The parts used on the XBRR engine look very production. I'd imagine trickle down from that project will be next for the street bikes. I'd love a more powerful, Ducati/RC51/Aprilia eating Buell. We've got it now with handling. More juice in the straights is pretty much what everyone has been asking for. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Alan, That's pretty funny actually. It does sound suspiciously like a rather silly rumor I started just for fun a couple of years ago. I had seen a Rotax single cylinder engine in a military Harley Davidson off road bike, and deduced from there that is was only a matter of time before the Rotax Vee Twin appeared in the Buell. A suggestion by Matt of Trojan, the English Buell specialist, that Aprilia wanted to build their own vee twin litre engine only served to fuel my rumor. So far, it is just a figment of my imagination, but I must say, quite a few of the brothers liked the idea, and if I recall correctly, one or two of them actually fell for my little hoax. Then again, there is simply no reason on God's green earth, why it couldn't happen! The motor would fit fine. Radiator location could be a snag, maybe side mounts would work, as on the RC 51. Court denied it so vigorously, I thought I might have just touched a nerve!  | ||
| Tunes |
A Rotax engine in a Buell? Not gonna happen. Harley-Davidson would not allow such a thing to happen. HD owns Buell and builds engines... why would HD/Buell spend many $$$ to develop various v-twin engines just to throw them away and buy someone elses? Besides, I bought an American motorcycle with an American engine. You can keep the Rotax engine. I'll go back to owning and riding HD's before I own a Buell with anything other than an American (read V-twin) engine. | ||
| Jaimec |
If you really are that hard core about demanding an all American motorcycle, there is no motorcycle with more American manufactured parts than the Honda GL1500 GoldWing (I don't know if that's still true for the GL1800, but with the exception of a couple of minor electronic parts, every single component of the GL1500 GoldWing was manufactured right here in the the ol' US of A). | ||
| Jaimec |
If you really are that hard core about demanding an all American motorcycle, there is no motorcycle with more American manufactured parts than the Honda GL1500 GoldWing (I don't know if that's still true for the GL1800, but with the exception of a couple of minor electronic parts, every single component of the GL1500 GoldWing was manufactured right here in the good ol' US of A). | ||
| Chris_in_tn |
Rotax engines have been used in Harley's before. Many may remember the off road military bike Harley built in the early 90's. It used a Rotax engine. | ||
| Jiffy |
I think we will see a variation of the XBRR in 08. But, I look forward to a liquid cooled version later. The Rotax rumor was started by people disappointed with the "weak" motor the Buell had put in a great chassis. Many people on other forums say why not Rotax. I'm actually surprised no one has tried to put a Rotax in a Buell, but do it well, for fun. | ||
| Teddagreek |
Water cooled is going to happen. IMO it will be a engine option. Harley Davidson is one of the original inovators. They can't afford to be passed up and they won't let it happen. Example:New 110 motor with six speeds... There is just too much buzz for it to be just a rumor.. | ||
| Cochise |
Can I be the voice of reason? Sorry, I got nothing but I will say this. Buell has gotten this far with the plant that it uses, why would they just give it up and change to a water cooled? I would rather see take their tired, fifty year old design, and kick the other people's, ever loving BUTTS!! | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
well to prove that posible they did it in europe on the buell web site under racing news there is an article about a xbrr beating a bunch of 999r's and 996's and aprillas | ||
| Cycleaddict |
"harley-davidson is one of the original innovators" -WHAT ???> stagnent and dysfuntional are the first things that come to my mind. but they are innovators as far as creating(?) a "culture"of chrome luvin, old fashion,look at me-- motorcycle owners.H.D.co is a great innovator at selling the same ol' thing year after year and making BIG -bucks doing it!!! yes please----lets have a real, modern powerplant to propel our "new" buells. it don't matter if it has liquid,air,or asphault cooling just give it some" balls" so we will no longer have make excuses for the substandard performance (motor)of our american made motorcycle !!!!!! | ||
| Xbeau12s |
Interesting. Might be cool, might not but in 2008 I'll still be riding my kitted 04XB12S with a shit ton of miles on it and it will probably go until 2016 (maybe) but possible. | ||
| Altima02 |
I think that offering a water-cooled model would only help Buell. Offering ONLY water-cooled engines will not. By expanding the line-up, I think some good things could come to Buell. But I dont see this happening in the near future. Buell has put too much into the RR to not incorporate any of it into the new models. Air cooled for me please! | ||
| M1combat |
"it don't matter if it has liquid,air,or asphault cooling just give it some" balls" so we will no longer have make excuses for the substandard performance (motor)of our american made motorcycle !!!!!!" Ummm... Every time I chase a hosukyamakaw 1000 down my favorite canyon road and we get to the end they ask "Wow... How much HP do those things make?". I always say "About half as much as yours." with a big smile on my face. | ||
| 45_degrees |
I chased down those 600 and 1000s too with my 9 through the curves.... and now I use my 12Ss... I rarely need to downshift, just leave it in 5th and throttle on up from 45-55 mph exiting at 90-100 mph through the curves (I know them well) and it feels rock solid all the way through, even with road imperfections. I've even hit dips that I've launched out of (mid-corner at high lean angle) where both wheels have left the ground and the bike never loses it composure and lands (still banked) solid and steady like nothing happened. Kinda like Isle of Mann TT racing! Wow! Don't have to make any excuses for that! People complaining that they need more power need to get out and find some canyons! Jeez! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Erik never said he did not like watercooled engines, he just said that there is plenty of potential in aircooled engines as well, and that they should not be simply dismissed as an out of date architecture. And keep it in perspective... my buddy rides a V-Strom, which has that "wonderful" Suzuki superbike derived TLR watercooled twin. By the time they tuned it to make a non annoying amount of torque down low, I'm not sure it makes that much more power then an XB12, maybe even less. And it gets worse fuel economy. If a water cooled motor makes sense, I don't doubt Buell will do it. But if I was in charge of the company, and had a choice of making a water cooled twin that is only fractionally better then a street legal XBRR (and is more complicated) or making a blast derivitive that is kind of like an XR-650 adventure tourer, I would be looking hard at a new "adventure blast" before I started making a water cooled motor just to snag some fractional performance gain. I'd love to see a Buell XR-650 killer, either blast based or XB9 based. Something a little more streetish, not a jumping bike, that will take Uly luggage, but that can take a trip down a trail without drama. For $6000, so I can get one used for $3000 in 4 years when I finally pay off the minivan. Please!?!?! | ||
| Ceejay |
Hey reep, I thought that's what the city X was for? me I want one for the track... | ||
| Reepicheep |
You laugh, but I can tell you from experience that mud and grass get in places you would *not* believe when you take the 9sx off road. It does remarkably well by the way. No jumping and no heroics, just puttering away around a way overgrown field with lots of elevation changes. The CityX was happy as a clam. Now if it was 150 pounds lighter with a bit more suspension travel, I could have been wheelying and getting a little air | ||
| Ceejay |
Had my M2 in a similar situ once, actually had to end up washing it! I do wish that buell or HD would get into the off road game...especially since most of the bikes/four wheelers are air cooled 4 stroke thumpers...That CityX would look tits with a compliment of long travels and nobbies... | ||
| 45_degrees |
A new XB-based, off-roading blast with the 12's stroke would make a nice 600cc thumper... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I photoshopped something up right after the 9sx came out, it is posted here somewhere... no knobbies on it though. It did look cool as heck with an extra 4" of suspension travel but still keeping the really short wheelbase. now that we have the Uly, somebody could probably actually build one pretty easily, at least the front half. | ||
| Skully |
I'm curious: What do we Buell fans define a modern power plant as being? | ||
| Fullpower |
modern? how about an 88" nikasil cylinder air cooled 45 degree v twin, with a pair of 45mm throttle bodies, and a well sorted EFI system, perhaps making smooth usable torque from 2500 rpm up to a peak of 120 Horsepower at 7000 rpm. put it in an aluminum frame, containing 5 (usable) gallons of fuel, put some good brakes, liteweight 17 inch wheels, some sticky tires, and a nice bright PAIR of headlights. price it around $10,000 US, and sell all you a can build. | ||
| Jlnance |
I have also read that Mr. Buell would never countenance using other than a 'traditional', air-cooled engine in these bikes. I've read interviews where Mr. Buell said he would do a water cooled engine if customers demanded it. | ||
| Lenb |
What I want is NOT more power, watercooled, etc. - but just a lighter XB. Great bike, great engine - but just TOO heavy. The XB platform needs to go on a diet. |
