| Author | Message | ||
     44mag2 |
Court, You seem to have good insider information ... why would Buell say that it is "critical" that we do not retard the static timing to eliminate the ping? All indications are that the bike runs better with the retarded timing. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, I am wondering if there might be ECMs with different flashed parameters. My post above should reveal this if people really want to address this issue. It is easy to think that all black boxes are equal I think there has to be a significant difference somewhere that explains the pinging. If it is the gas then the pingless will ping if they ever ride through Virginia and need gas. Time will tell. | ||
| Stretch67 |
I'm wondering if Buell Inc tells John Q. Owner to keep the timing at factory specs for the same reason GM, Ford, et al tell their owners to never remove catalytic converters, etc. The manufacturers are bound by law to ensure their machines adhere to Gum'mint (EPA) mandates. For this reason, no manufacturer will advise the owners of their product that it is okay to change the timing on their product, as it will change the emissions level coming from that engine. If EPA ever got wind of Buell Inc telling owners to change the factory timing without a re-test by EPA, you can be sure there would be hell to pay. We, as owners, are hardly bound by these laws, and are much more free to fiddle with timing, mufflers, intakes, cams, etc. (Message edited by stretch67 on September 21, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Steve, I've not heard of a single case of XB engine damage attributable to pinging or more specifically "detonation." The most likely damage resulting from excessive detonation would be a holed piston or broken ring lands. It ain't happening, at least not yet. I don't know what to tell you. A competent mechanic should be able to sort it out for you. There just aren't that many factors that come into play in a detonation scenario. Are you absolutely sure it is detonation that you are hearing? If so, the optimum diagnostic scenario would be to put the bike on a dynamometer with a wide band air/fuel meter (O2 sensor) to see exactly what the engine is doing. Chili, "Ping = spark starting flame front too soon, resulting in maximum force released prior to top dead center. " That is not quite accurate. Detonation occurs not from the spark which ignites a burn, but from an instantaneous explosion/detonation caused by excessive heat and pressure. A diesel engine operates via detonation; no external spark is required, just high pressure which creates heat and BOOM! Of course diesel engines are designed to handle that kind of combustion/explosion, gasoline engines are not. | ||
| Aeholton |
Davo - I'm willing to loan you my old factory ECM to run tests on, if you like. I had a pinging problem with it and was told by the dealer "no problem found". Not so much with the Race ECM I am currently running. I don't have a pocket PC device, so datalogging is kinda tough (don't want to mess up my hard drive in my laptop). PM me your address and I'd be happy to ship it to you for testing. | ||
| Lorazepam |
Mine was ping free, and I will loan you my stock ecm as well. | ||
| 44mag2 |
I have little experience with motorcycle engines. However, I have a significant amount of experience with Lycoming airplane engines, which are very similar (low RPM, air/oil cooled). I know that pinging is very dangerous to the health of an engine. Of course airplane engines have very high standards of reliability. Nonetheless, pinging will damage the engine and reduce the life. After spending $12K on a bike, I want it to last a long time. I will retard the timing like Davo and stop worrying. Good to hear that you have not heard of any XB's being damaged from pinging. | ||
| Whodom |
That is not quite accurate. Detonation occurs not from the spark which ignites a burn, but from an instantaneous explosion/detonation caused by excessive heat and pressure. A diesel engine operates via detonation; no external spark is required, just high pressure which creates heat and BOOM! Of course diesel engines are designed to handle that kind of combustion/explosion, gasoline engines are not. Blake, Detonation occurs when the flame front from the burning fuel/air mixture, which has already been lit by the spark plug, compresses the remaining fuel/air causing a second flame front to start. When the two flame fronts collide you get the "ping". A similar but much worse problem is pre-ignition. Pre-ignition occurs when the entire mixture lights of its own accord before the spark plug sparks. This will REALLY hose up an engine in a hurry. Here's a pretty good discussion with photos: http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%20Tips/detonation_and_preignition.htm | ||
| Snowscum |
"Spark plugs too hot a heat range" Hmmm | ||
| Teeps |
44mag2, Ask Buell to extend your engine warranty to 50k miles for ping related damage only. See what they say. | ||
| Stretch67 |
"Spark plugs too hot a heat range" Hmmm Very possible. The ceramic insulator surrounding the center electrode acts as a heat sink to keep the plug from running too hot. A plug with a higher heat range will have a slimmer ceramic insulator surrounding the center electrode, allowing more heat to build up in the electrode. This serves to burn off soot, oil, and other deposits before they can foul the plug. The catch is, the plug can run so hot that the electrodes can remain nearly red-hot. This hot spot in an otherwise cool-running cylinder (acting like a diesel engine's glow plug) can surely cause pre-ignition and run-on. I think we may be on to something... (Message edited by stretch67 on September 21, 2006) | ||
| Davo |
Blake, I use the ECU/ECM O2 channel to watch for changes in mixture relative to 14.7 to 1. voltage less than .41 V is lean condition voltage greater than .56 V is rich AFV is a collective review of combustion efficiency put into a value that can be used as a foundation for open loop operation. AFV greater than 100 is lean AFV less than 100 is rich (Message edited by davo on September 21, 2006) | ||
| Davo |
Stretch67, The plug heat range is no doubt a factor but I believe it plays a minor role. By retarding the timing the pinging will cease and the heat generated by early ignition is reduced to the point where additional down stream heat generated by late timing is more than offset by reduced combustion chamber temperatures. I have done plug reads frequently. I am on my fourth set of plugs at 7K and each pair were inspected numerous times. My plugs look much cooler than they were with the factory timing setting. Initially the plugs came out looking bleached white with what I refer to as micro aluminum marbles on the insulator and the grounding electrode. | ||
| Stretch67 |
I have a '67 Sunbeam Alpine with a tightly rebuilt engine. I installed Champion plugs of original-equivalent specs, and although the engine didn't ping, it ran-on every time the ignition was turned off. It seemed that it could get just enough fuel to barely keep running on one or two cylinders with the plugs glowing hot just after engine shutdown. I went with a couple heat values cooler, and the run-on ceased. I was guessing that this phenomenon, along with marginal timing and a lean mixture, may sometimes cause pre-ignition in some, but not all, XB engines. It was just a thought. | ||
| Davo |
Stretch, Those are great cars! What engine? I can't remember; was it a 2000, or the Tiger,a 289? I used to wrench on a early Austin Mini S. 1275 Positive ground Lucas systems taught me a bunch about electrical trouble shooting. I walked by a Sunbeam everyday on my way to school back in the day. Very cool! Well back to bikes, you are absolutely right about the run on problem being related to the plugs. Auto makers after 74 had more trouble with run on due to lean mixtures so they installed a electrically operated idle solenoid that would allow the throttle to close almost all the way when the key was turned off. Without enough fuel and air to idle and run on was moot. You never hear run on any more thanks to FI. When the key is off there is no fuel at all. I am 99% sure that the pinging on these bikes with less than perfect fuel is directly related to the timing. The timing is the only parameter that has a radical sweep from the reasonable to the edge of the envelope. I have watched timing numbers on a log go from straight up at idle to 62 BTDC with less than 4K of RPM. The timing numbers will actually drop during throttle up after cruise. Max advance on the Sunbeam is no more than 35-38, right? | ||
| Snowscum |
I'd like to see a dyno before and after a timing retard Davo. How much hp do you lose through the ranges. http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_index.aspx (Message edited by snowscum on September 22, 2006) | ||
| Red_chili |
Here's what I see so far (sorry for the reiteration and long post}, just want to collect them to frame my thoughts): Chili, "Ping = spark starting flame front too soon, resulting in maximum force released prior to top dead center. " That is not quite accurate. Detonation occurs not from the spark which ignites a burn, but from an instantaneous explosion/detonation caused by excessive heat and pressure. A diesel engine operates via detonation; no external spark is required, just high pressure which creates heat and BOOM! Of course diesel engines are designed to handle that kind of combustion/explosion, gasoline engines are not. Boy, you guys are precise. I was not. Y'all get me every time, good on ya. I was assuming ping from advanced timing based on Davo's experiences and testing, not necessarily spontaneous detonation. But you are right, this is a separate kind of problem and not to be confused, as the causes can be very different even if detonation results from advance-induced ping -> hotspots. Detonation occurs when the flame front from the burning fuel/air mixture, which has already been lit by the spark plug, compresses the remaining fuel/air causing a second flame front to start. When the two flame fronts collide you get the "ping". Or, a hot valve, or other hotspot. A similar but much worse problem is pre-ignition. Pre-ignition occurs when the entire mixture lights of its own accord before the spark plug sparks. This will REALLY hose up an engine in a hurry. Here's a pretty good discussion ... A separate kind of event, but possibly related once the problem cascades... By retarding the timing the pinging will cease and the heat generated by early ignition is reduced to the point where additional down stream heat generated by late timing is more than offset by reduced combustion chamber temperatures. ...Initially the plugs came out looking bleached white with what I refer to as micro aluminum marbles on the insulator and the grounding electrode. This is what I would hypothesize is the initial cause. It can cascade into the other forms of 'ping' above, and if it does, you bet your bippy your motor is not long for the world. I would be very concerned with the micro aluminum marbles Davo describes, and I would tend to agree that Buell really has their hands tied on changing the timing for legal reasons. Technically, so do we (by the letter of the law, but not the intent), but frankly my dear... Somewhat related: I went round and round with Toyota on headgasket failures on their 3.0 V6. Mine was an early failure in what turned out to be a design and supplier problem. They ended up replacing the motor. Mind you, I am a Toyota loyalist and not a griper/moaner, and I understand the corporate/legal forces that prevent manufacturers jumping into a solution- but I also know what causes certain failures, and so do they. Presented (persistently) with the evidence, good manufacturers (like Toyota and like Buell) do the right thing most days. Persist. Gather evidence. Present it rationally. Know that if Erik had his way none of this would be an issue. | ||
| Red_chili |
I'd like to see a dyno before and after a timing retard Davo. How much hp do you lose through the ranges. I would predict there would be an *increase* in power. Losing power only happens once the timing is retarded beyond the ignition point of greatest efficiency. But this is exactly the kind of evidence needed to demonstrate the problem. My opinion: don't gripe about having to prove something the manufacturer should really be doing. Though they test and test and test, we are doing real world QA. We always do no matter what the brand. We need to think like partners in bettering the breed. {end opinion} | ||
| Stretch67 |
Davo, The Alpines (like mine) run a 1725cc four-cylinder. The Tigers (1965-68) ran either Ford 260 or 289 V-8's, depending on the year. I detest English engines due to their Lucas electrics and Stromberg carbs, so instead of rebuilding a piece of cheese, I swapped in a 2.3 liter four-cylinder and 5-speed from a 1980 Mustang. The car can now go years between tune-ups and I can get the parts 'round the corner at Autozone. It was a fun car with the tired original engine, but it's an absolute screamer now. I don't have a clue what the total advance is. I set it at 6* BTDC and let 'er eat. | ||
| Soloyosh |
Stretch67 sez: We, as owners, are hardly bound by these laws, and are much more free to fiddle with timing, mufflers, intakes, cams, etc. I beg to differ. You are bound by these laws, and you are expected to maintain the emissions and noise requirements of any controlled vehicle. Yes, the laws are rarely enforced, but they're on the books. | ||
| Red_chili |
It's like a test done years ago on a 240Z. They tested it, it passed the Cali test - barely - with everything attached but only somewhat functional. They stripped everything, installed side drafts, dyno tuned it to perfection, retested it. The numbers were cleaner, much cleaner. But it failed the visual. Failed the letter, but not the intent. Just something to think about. | ||
| Stretch67 |
You are bound by these laws, and you are expected to maintain the emissions and noise requirements of any controlled vehicle. Yes, the laws are rarely enforced, but they're on the books. Of course they're on the books, but I ignore them, and so do the cops. | ||
| Soloyosh |
All I am sayin is that Stretch67s assertion was incorrect. Not advocating one way or the other. | ||
| Stretch67 |
I stand by my statement. Buell Inc. can not condone fiddling with the timing. But as private owners, we can. | ||
| Davo |
Stretch67, 2.3L!!!!! I used to circle track the 2.3L in a street stock class in N.C. 20 years ago. I got a couple of mods that will wake that thing up to about 8K! I will look for my notes if you are interested. Snowscum, I do not have a dyno.....yet. All of my dynamic readings are done on a road course that I repeat. I keep logs and then review them in the shop. I do not have a way to measure torque or HP. Dynamic timing is done in the shop at "no load" rpm. As for HP, what HP might loose with the fuel available, I am getting better power than before the timing change. That is mainly because I couldn't even get into the throttle before. My timing, after it was retarded, is still 55 BTDC at 3K and 11 TPS. Yours is probably 60-62! If I had 98-103 octane fuel then I would have left it alone and I would be out pulling wheelies right now! At the moment the World is my dyno! (Message edited by davo on September 22, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Whodom, Thanks for the clarification. I'm not sure that describing the detonation as a "flame front" is correct though. My understanding is that detonation explodes instantaneously the entire pocket of fuel charge all at once, just like in a diesel engine. I could be wrong. | ||
| Blake |
Someone commented that pinging damages an engine and shortens its life. I would clarify that by saying that pinging may damage an engine and shorten its life. Mild pinging on an intermittent basis is unlikely to cause harm. | ||
| Davo |
There is one thing about pinging that may be undebatable. An engine that pings with have higher operating temperatures than if the same engine did not ping. Agree? | ||
| Snowscum |
I agree Davo. Mine started running hotter when I started hearing the pinging. Right after the 1000mile service which included the addition of the syn3. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Blake, "Mild pinging on an intermittent basis is unlikely to cause harm." I agree. You are the voice of reason! However, mine pings whenever I accelerate if the engine is hot. It even pinged once accelerating DOWN a hill. Octane boost helps a lot. Cool weather eliminates the problem. Maybe the ping is not damaging the engine. How can I tell? If there is not a definitive way to tell, it seems the safe thing to do is minimize it as much as possible. |
