| Author | Message | ||
     Baydog |
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but I haven't been able to find an answer to this question. What exactly is the difference between the race ECM and the stock ECM? There's no real info on the Buell site. I know you lose the exhaust servo valve, but I'm more concerned about knowing the effect on timing, mixture, and the rev limiter. What EXACTLY do you get with the race ECM? | ||
| Stevem123 |
In basic terms the fuel map is a little richer in the midrange, the rev limiter is higher, and the motor can accomodate the free flowing muffler/air filter better with the overall fuel curve being slightly richer which means that if we ever are required to have smog tests, it probably won't pass the test. I don't know what it does for the timing curves but I wouldn't be suprised if they are a little more agressive as well. The motor really wakes up from it's choked down stock condition and my seat-of-the-pants tells me this is the way it was supposed to run from the beginning! It won't do you much good if you don't put on a free flowing muffler and air cleaner though. BC Steve | ||
| Stretch67 |
The motor really wakes up from it's choked down stock condition and my seat-of-the-pants tells me this is the way it was supposed to run from the beginning! I've heard a couple people theorize that's the way Erik wanted it, but the engine couldn't pass emissions without a catalytic converter, etc. So they swapped in a leaned-out economy ECM on all bikes and made the real one (the Race ECM) available as a hotrod part to any who wanted to go that way. (Message edited by stretch67 on September 19, 2006) | ||
| Davo |
Baydog, I am not prepared to and I do not have all the details but the timing at less than 30 TPS is identical but the timing is 1.5 -6.5 degrees more advanced at higher than 30 TPS. In short during most cruise and moderate acceleration the timing is identical. Any reduction in pre-ignition is due to extra fueling reducing AFR and cooling off the combustion chamber. As for specific fueling parameters, loop operation, AFV learn and other parameters I do not have sufficient data. | ||
| Red_chili |
Exactly what I would have expected, Davo. Honda went a similar way with the XR650R in 2000- nightmarishly lean, and a plug in the intake, the airbox, and a very restrictive muffler. But it was a green sticker bike that way. And... you could buy the hopup kit, richer jets, freer exhaust, and seemingly double the horsepower and make it run much cooler. The Buell situation is not nearly that dramatic. So has anyone run the race ECM with an otherwise stock bike? I know it is not optimal, but I need to do things in stages - and richening slightly seems to have goodness to me. | ||
| Asdf |
Bill, I have the Race ECM on a Ulysses that is nearly stock. I have the Race Filter, which is NOT a K&N anymore, and no other engine mods. The airbox is still a 2006 stock box. My bike as delivered, with the stock ECM, had a throttle that acted like an On-Off switch when coming off of idle. The Race ECM fixed that. Throttle response from any initial point, including idle, is now very SMOOTH. The Race ECM does not support the Servo Exhaust Valve in the stock muffler. Therefore, the Servo is wired open at all times. A remapped stock ECM might be in my future. I have had no pinging with either ECM. I doubt if the Race Filter did much, if anything at all, for my bike. If I open up the airbox, things might change, for better or worse. If someone ever makes a high performance muffler that is as quiet as the stock muffler, I may try it. Until that time, the stock muffler is what I will keep. Hope that helps! | ||
| Red_chili |
It does, it does... iiiiiinteresting. Might be worth an experiment. I found Al Lighton's dyno work (wow, he makes my brain hurt, sooo thorough) where he felt it was simply too fat for the stock pipe. But your experience with the race ECM and mine with stock, and wishing I could make it go to 13.5-14 A/F instead of 14.7 closed, make me wonder if (for the street, not the track) this might be a good idea on my way to a full intake/exhaust mod. I can live with the consequences of being a tad fat. I have no pinging. I do have what feels like surge at low r closed loop, which Al suggests is the ECM hunting stoich and causing an occasional miss. That, and I think the 14.7 makes the motor run a bit hotter than it needs to, really. Nothing too big, but I would like to not 'pop' sometimes when I whack it open at low r's. I confess I have 'fiddled' with every motorized conveyance I have ever had- always room for improvement. I don't like really loud, but the stocker is just not quite there enough for me. Neither is the cash to change that for a bit. Regards the pipe, I only wish there were a somewhat standard homebrew mod. I am a pretty durn fair fabricator, and it is tempting. (Message edited by red_chili on September 20, 2006) | ||
| Jevansxb12x |
Red-Chili - I am in the same boat as you. I have a stock Uly, and I want to add the intake/ecm/exhaust mods in stages. I am thinking along the same lines, ECM first. But still not sure about that because don't I have to have the TPS zeroed every time I change something?? It may be easier to do everything at once (open air box, ECM and Drummer exhaust). I am also wondering what is the difference between the Race ECM and a re-mapping of the stock ECM? I mean, can't the stock ECM be remapped to mimic the Race ECM? Or are there other differences? Asdf - When you say the exhaust valve is wired open, do you mean physically held open with a piece bailing wire? | ||
| Red_chili |
I would think (could be wrong, just from what I have garnered here) that the remapped stock ECM would change open loop A/F only. Not a trivial thing to do. Also, not where I have a gripe (be it small). My gripe is with the closed loop area, and I don't *think* anyone is tweaking that (or possibly can?) I'd love to be wrong on that and am sure someone will soon point out if I am.  Al discusses the different algorithms between ECMs and that he does not have access to them - only the map values (variables). PM him; he is fantastic and open with good information. He is also a consummate perfectionist so he may be horrified at the thought of using a race ECM in a stocker. And yeah, answering for Karl, it is wired open. On a bike such as ours, though, be sure you use the gold plated variety of baling wire... J/K Caveat: the race ECM is mapped for a different exhaust and it will no doubt be crude... but maaaaybe acceptably so in the interim. (Message edited by red_chili on September 20, 2006) (Message edited by red_chili on September 20, 2006) | ||
| Asdf |
Chili, Regarding your PM, I'll put it all here for everyone to see: 1) Downside: No "Downside" to the Race ECM V/S Stock that I can tell. I have no Dyno comparisons, and the "Posterior Dyno" did not reveal any changes, other than SMOOTH throttle response. 2) Cold weather operation: It has gotten down to the upper 50's and low 60's recently when I am riding. Sometimes when there is a radical temp change from the last ride to the next ride, a couple of engine misses happen. After the ECM adapts-"Learns" the new parameters, it runs smooth again. The stock ECM acted like this, too. 3) Warm Up Time: No change that I can tell. I get on the bike, fire it up and let it warm up while I put on my helmet, earplugs and gloves, and zip-snap-button my jacket. I then back it out of the parking spot and gently motor away. A few minutes later I don't worry about being gentle anymore. 4) Full Throttle Operation: No change noticed. Throttle is SMOOTH at all settings and during all transitions. Transitions can be snappy whacks or gentle precise feathering. 5) Plug Life: I don't know. I have not had any plug fouling so far. I also do not blip the throttle when the engine is cold. Heck, I rarely blip the throttle for any reason... My lowered to XB-9 from XB-12 Primary Ratio gearing makes take offs easy and "Blip Free". Slow speed operation is done at dead idle with a fully engaged clutch, thanks to the lower XB-9 gearing. [EDIT: I do "Blip" the throttle while downshifting... No Pops, Hiccups or other artifacts while blipping for a downshift.] Hope this helps! (Message edited by asdf on September 20, 2006) | ||
| Red_chili |
Again, it does! Now I just need to save some dead presidents. | ||
| Lorazepam |
chili why not buy a stock pipe off ebay, and remove some of the restriction yourself? You can get one for 50 bucks or so. | ||
| Superglide |
For what it is worth, let me add my 2 cents. I have 8500 miles on my Uly and about 400 miles ago I did the drummer, race ecm & air filter mod. Until yesterday I was happy with the changes but I experienced excessive pinging on city streets (stop n' go)with air temp at 93 degree's. So I decided to re-check the tps and everything checked ok. I decided to re-install the stock ecu & re-set tps today and began with a 10 mile steady run holding 3500 rpm to set the afv and then continued with my city loop of stop n' go with the air temp about 8 degree's cooler today. The bike runs better for surface street riding with the stock ecm. I prefer the race ecm for spirited play days while rpm is above 3000 but for daily commuting I prefer the stock ecm and no pinging. So I can change out the ecm & do the tps re-set in about 10 mins based on where I'm going to ride and how hot will it be.... | ||
| Davo |
The surging at 3K is not fueling or loop changes. It is timing. In order to get a super clean this is what happens: At 10-12 TPS and 3K +/-100 RPM the timing increases from 45 to 55! If your bike is set up according to factory procedures then you need to add about 7 degrees to the 55. So with 62 degree of advance at only 3K, the engine is right on the extreme edge of pre-ignition. It is no small feat that the engineers at Buell are able to keep the engine as happy as it is with fuel management under those conditions. That is why the MPG numbers and emissions are so good. Now 10% ethanol pushed the envelope too far. (Message edited by davo on September 20, 2006) (Message edited by davo on September 21, 2006) | ||
| Red_chili |
chili why not buy a stock pipe off ebay, and remove some of the restriction yourself? You can get one for 50 bucks or so. And I have done similar things in bikes of yore. I can do very nice welds in gas and mig when the mood strikes, and my lovely bride has blessed me with a plasma cutter that rocks. It's just the fear and trepidation of not being an acoustical engineer and not having a dyno. Maybe I'm being far too careful here... | ||
| Lorazepam |
It is a v twin, and a muffler. not much you could do but run a bit lean. If you check your plugs after your experiments, you shouldnt have a problem. | ||
| Red_chili |
 "Aw, pa... but I is SKEEERED, pa! Doan' make me go into that barn alone!!! That Pegasus shore is mean an nasty, and kicks like a mule..."  OK, OK. Fair enuff. Odie and especially Kevin have logged lots of time on the ol' dyno, and ended up with different curves nonetheless, and I could not hope to emulate what they have done... but I am in conversation with someone with a XB12R stock takeoff so we'll see. | ||
| Baydog |
This is all really good info. I'm tempted to try the race ECM with the stock exhaust wired open. I don't want Drummer loud, just a little bit deeper tone. So far I haven't found anyone offering that. If I can find a stock exhaust to play with I might try modifying one. Just for the record, what exhaust fits the Uly? Will any XB12 exhaust work? XB9? I'm confused. |
