| Author | Message | ||
     44mag2 |
Davo, How has your uly been holding up with that 7 degrees of retarded timing? Mine still pings sometimes (like after sitting in traffic or on very hot days accelerating in high gear). I was thinking of retarding the timing another few degrees. Have you experienced any problems? Power? Heat? Gas mileage? I retarded mine 3 degrees, but it was advanced from the factory, so it is probably only 1 or 2 degrees retarded from factory spec. Thanks, 44mag | ||
| Davo |
Still no problems. My mark is not even visible when the fuel pump cycles. It has just passe the edge of the window when the fuel pump cycles. I am about 2.5 mm counter clockwise from the factory setting. My plugs look good and it takes longer for my fan to come on (a couple of minutes longer) My garage arrival temps during 97-100 F outside temperatures is around 397-402 F. I still have the stock air scoops in place. I am using AMS oil 20w-50 MCV. I can't make my bike ping. I think the 10% ethanol gas is a problem for high compression air cooled engines. Do you use ethanol containing fuel? | ||
| Davo |
I would retard another 1mm if you are still pinging! Nothing is worse than pinging! Power good and fuel consumption 55+ highway. (Message edited by davo on August 07, 2006) | ||
| 44mag2 |
I am going to try some octane booster just to see what happens, and then I will retard a bit more for a permanent solution. Thanks for the good advice! | ||
| 44mag2 |
My fuel does contain ethanol ... | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, My static/dynamic timing issue is without an official factory resolution but I do know that my timing is more reasonable than the factory setting. If you hook up a VDSTS and watch the timing numbers and then use a variable advance timing light to verify the accuracy of the mark then my setting is closer to reality than theirs. I have also looked at the factory data for the stock ECM and checked it with a light. If you set the engine up according to the factory setting then the timing is not as prescribed in the program!!! That's why the other's are having pinging and in some cases overheating problems. I have never smoked an engine because I stopped it from pinging. Good luck and let me know about your results. | ||
| Tel |
Excuse my ignorance but what does the pinging sound like? | ||
| 44mag2 |
Best way I can describe it is like a few ball bearing rattling around in a soup can that is being shook ... not periodic, but random. | ||
| Tel |
Thanks I imagine it would be quite noticeable, not be mistaken for anything else. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, xbimmers right side scoop has reduced his running temperatures significantly. The temperatures are so low that they would reduce the conditions for pre-igniton/pinging. If you are not pleased with the performance of retarding the timing then a scoop might be a good alternative. By the way I replaced my spark plugs tonight and they look great! I would say they are a "perfect burn". As you know my timing is so late that the bike is on Central Time and I live in Virginia! | ||
| 44mag2 |
I have considered a scoop ... someday I might get one. However, i recall the explanation by Eric Buell posted a while ago confirming my suspicion that the stock right hand cover is needed to channel the air to cool at low speeds. I rarely get stuck in traffic, but when I do, I prefer to not worry about overheating. The right hand scoop is optimal when moving. The stock configuration is a compromise. I might try to build a scoop with a baffle that can be closed to simulate the stock configuration when in traffic. | ||
| Whodom |
One thing to consider here- slight pinging that occurs rarely for a short time under very adverse conditions wouldn't worry me at all. At least that lets you know that the timing is properly adjusted for normal riding and that you are getting the best power and efficiency you can get from the engine. If you never get ANY pinging no matter how hot the engine is, how bad the gas is, and how much you're lugging it, the timing is likely excessively retarded and you're losing some performance under most riding conditions. Ignition timing can make a big difference in the "seat of the pants power" feel of any gasoline engines. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Whodam, Good point. However, mine pings a bit too much ... not just under adverse conditions. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Timing retarded. The mark is 1/2 way between the middle and the right edge. I will report on the results. Question: Other than overheating, what is the risk of retarding the timing? I want to know what to look for so I can watch for any signs. | ||
| Whodom |
44, that's the only problem I can think of. If you notice your pipes glowing in broad daylight, your timing's retarded too far! | ||
| 44mag2 |
I read this ... "Too retarded timing will give low power, lousy emissions and excessive bore wear. Timing too advanced will cause pinging (a rattling noise usually heard on acceleration), overheating cylinder heads and other problems too scary to contemplate." Makes sense ... but what would cause the excessive bore wear for retarded timing? | ||
| Davo |
The pipe temperature on mine is over 100 F less than on my EFI Ultra Classic rear header. The timing on my Buell is 7.5 degrees late. It is my opinion that any pinging is a sign of poor tuning. A good tuner will tune his or her engine to run to the best of its ability at the parameters required by the rider. Pinging is the evidence of pre-ignition. One way to change the pre-ignition to precise ignition is to retard the timing. Pinging causes heat and heat causes pinging and so on. I have never smoked an engine by preventing it from pre-igniting. | ||
| Davo |
I think the bore wear issue is if the timing is so late that it is firing on an open chamber due to the piston having already falling into a power stroke before ignition. I do not think this is an issue because when you retard the timing to the safe side of the ping envelope then the timing is not late. It is all perspective. The riders that have small amounts of pinging would say that I am late and it is my opinion that my timing is correct because the engine is igniting correctly. I would argue that their timing is early if there is any pinging. It is similar to the oil plug torque. When it is torqued to 29ft. lbs. it is correct according to the book even though it strips at that specification. So the question is whether the book is right or the engine is happy. (Message edited by davo on August 12, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Key word in the quote by 44mag2 above is "too." "Too retarded" probably means something like more than 15 degrees beyond OEM specification or even more. | ||
| 44mag2 |
I retarded the timing so the mark is 1/2 way between the center and the right side of the window. Still pinging under normal riding conditions. I sent a letter to Buell requesting a factory solution. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
What grade of fuel are you using (brand/octane) and what is the ethanol content? | ||
| Stevem123 |
Hey 44mag2 are you running the race kit? Since I installed my factory race kit, mine has been pinging also unless I run fuel conditioner. Only does it when it gets pretty warm though. I will see if it still does it and what to do about it when I get it back from the shop. They're finally troubleshooting the fuel pump running all the time while the engine is off. Like cutting teeth....I had to re-install the factory stock ECM before they would warranty the fuel pump or whatever they find causing the problem.......... Funny how I told them what needed to be checked and such but they didn't have a clue until I contacted Buell Customer service and explained the symptoms...That alone delayed any real work by at least two days....... I still love the bike though and missing it badly! BC Steve | ||
| 44mag2 |
What grade of fuel are you using (brand/octane) and what is the ethanol content? I am using Chevron 92 ... I am not sure if there is ethanol, the sign says that it MAY contain 10%, But I thought that was only in the winter. | ||
| 44mag2 |
Hey 44mag2 are you running the race kit? I am not using the race kit. The thing is, I might not have noticed the ping due to wind noise. It happens reliably in 4th gear between 3500 and 4000 RPM. At that speed, I need to put my head down by the bike just to hear the engine over the wind noise. There may be more pinging Uly's out there that have not been detected. SteveM123, What kind of fuel conditioner do you use to get rid of the ping? Is it an octane booster? } | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Actually they usually have ethanol added in the summer, but since it reduces cost it has been used pretty much non stop. Anything over 10% is not supposed to be safe for normal engines. You will find higher at stations however! Since you are using Chevron I am betting you are getting good fuel.(10% max) Before you get too worked up try some conditioner or even better yet stop in the store at your next step and use some of the Techron that Chevron sells. Hope that helps. | ||
| Davo |
Birdmanrh, Have you totally eliminated your pinging and overheating with additives alone? | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Yes, and hey I am not being gentle with the bike. I am at the extreme, it is hot here and I knew I was pushing the bike before, so honestly it made sense. I will probably pull the injectors here in a month or so to have them balanced and will give you guys the results when I do so. | ||
| Davo |
44mag2, There is your fix, chemical or mechanical. Pick one. | ||
| Theloftus |
The fan noise drowns out my pinging | ||
| 44mag2 |
I will try the chemical approach ... Birdmanrh, Is the fuel conditioner you use an octane booster? I did not think that Techron was a booster, just a cleaner. Is that what you use to get rid of the ping? | ||
| 44mag2 |
By the way ... Thanks guys for all your help. I really appreciate it. I like having a pool of expertise that I can draw on when I have a problem. |
