| Author | Message | ||
     Birdmanrh |
I have been looking at the right side scoop and looking at some of the posts here and I think you guys might not be getting the fix that you think. An understanding of fluid dynamics might help but basically all you are doing is cooling the sensor to the point that it thinks that the entire block is cooler. If you look at how the sensor is mounted and where you are increasing flow you will find that the sensor will benefit greatly and when the fan does not turn on the bottom section of the block will actually get hotter than designed. I need a bike with a right scoop on it to run before and after thermals but I am willing to bet that this is the case. OK, feel free to start the disagreement argument.  | ||
| Brad1445 |
Maybe, but isn't the top portion of the Jug the hottest part? Once again, I personally believe that if the fans operational sound was not so objectionable people would not be looking for patches. | ||
| Davo |
Thanks to xbimmer we now know that his bike runs at ET temps less than 338F when before installing his right side scoop the ET was going to 428F and then the fan would kick on and run all the time. He has posted that for the first time not only did his fan turned off during key on conditions but the fan did not even run during key off conditions.! That is a difference of 90 F of ET during summer riding!!!!! | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Where is he getting that temp reading? If it is from the sensor then it supports my theory. If not he needs a range of temp readings on the jug, or a thermal image to show what is going on. I do not doubt the fan is not running, I am saying that the sensor is being tricked. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Brad, I agree with why people are looking for a fix. I am just not sure of the long term results of this one. As far as the hottest spot I would say it would probably be mid jug, but without a thermal image it really is a guess. | ||
| Xbimmer |
I don't know squat about fluid dynamics (officially) but I know that the "sensoring" part of the engine temp sensor is buried into finned and actively heated/cooled aluminum. Maybe on a space probe the wiring or sensor body might contribute to false info to an ecm but jeez... this is a motorcycle! IMHO the only info that the ETS is gonna send to the ECM on my right scooped Uly is what temp the head is! A cooler head tells the ETS what to say to the ECM! The reason the fan is there is to help the head stay cool! If the head is running cool enough why not let the fan sleep? If somebody doesn't want a r/s scoop fine. Nobody making them is getting rich off them. If you want to come up with theories about why they "can't" work, without trying one, fine. Welcome to the land of closed minds. All I know is that for the last few days my fan only switches on when I shut the bike off. I pulled in to the Rock Store this a.m., cooler I admit than in July, no fan until I shut it off. Ran around Mulholland for a bit and stopped about 10:00 and a bit warmer outside, no fan until I shut it off. Ran home normal fwy speeds 75-80 and no fan until I shut it off at home. And as said what has the block/case got to do with the fan/head issue? There are posts which indicate that the oil temp of the Uly is not an issue. The whole goal of the r/s scoop is to help keep the rear cyl cooler and save our fragile fans. Rant done... | ||
| Brad1445 |
gotcha, and agreed. I bet a dollar Buell has some? Someone call Eric, please. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Xbimmer, Geez, a little touchy? The sensor is mounted at the top of the block and has a hole that aligns with the place you are putting a new direct air inlet. Yes, even on a motorcycle if you change the input that a sensor gets it will change output. What you are telling me is that the temp sensor is seeing less heat and not turning the fan on. I am not in disagreement with that fact. What I am asking is why? Is it because the right air scoop actually reduces overall engine temperature? OR Is it because it changes the value that the Engine Temp Sensor sees and therefore shuts the fan off early, if it evens lets it turn on. I am not trying to make you feel bad about your purchase, nor am I trying to discourage anyone from making the purchase. I am just trying to find some true empirical data. Not just guesses based upon "seat of the pants" feelings. | ||
| Davo |
"ET" temperature parameters are published in the factory manual #99494-06Y on page 4-106. I have verified that these numbers are correct by monitoring fan operation while watching "ET" temperatures with diagnostic software. As for the ET location, it is buried deep in the center recess of the rear head. if the ET sensor is cooler then the entire rear cylinder should be cooler. The addition of the right side scoop does impact the front cylinder and the injector area. It is my opinion the the front cylinder is out front and on its own and will fend for itself nicely. The injector area could use some cooling off especially in hotter regions and/or seasons. | ||
| Mb182 |
The element in the sensor is buried in the head.. Blowing air on the external portion of the sensor will not change the reading... MB | ||
| Teeps |
trying to count the horse's teeth with his lips closed. Things that can be agreed on: A: the fan comes on at 428F (as specified by the service manual.) B: the fan, when it runs, is louder than most would like. C: the fan runs when it seems that it should not need to be running, IE ambient temperatures are less than (say) 65F. D: the engine(bike) has to comply with current E.P.A. emissions standards. E: observation indicates that the fan does not run as much with the R/S Scoop, as without one. Things that are not agreed on: A: the "ACTUAL" temperature of the CRITICAL PART of the head where the ET sensor is fitted. Simply stated, it is well documented (by user observation) that 428F. IS the temperature set by the ECM for the fan to come on. It is what it is, a design spec. good, bad or otherwise. So the question is: whether the right side scoop cools the CRITICAL PART OF THE HEAD, or just the sensor? I don't know the answer, just asking the question. | ||
| Teeps |
Mb182 Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 The element in the sensor is buried in the head.. Blowing air on the external portion of the sensor will not change the reading... MB This makes sense, and I would tend to agree; but how do you know this for sure?} | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I'll buy a right side scoop when Buell offers one for under 100 bucks. For reasons we are not privy to, Buell engineers have forsaken symmetry for a fan that they feel is the answer to engine longevity. I'm sure most of you have felt the heat coming out through the rear wheel well by the rear shock after shutting down when the fan is on. It definitely removes heat off the rear head. Harley sells a fan for 300+bucks for cooling the engine http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441 988787&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302290779&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=25343743022 90779&bmUID=1155566255372&bmLocale=en_US and we bitch because we got it thrown in with the deal from the gitgo. I for one have been checking my oil/temp gauge everytime I get off my ULY and I've yet to see the oil exceed 200 F. I say we are darn lucky that Buell cares enough about their bikes' engine life to give us this "cool" extra. The only thing about having that right scoop that would concern me is that no one who has one has told us how it is affecting the oil temp. If it is lowering the oil temp by 20 or more degrees like the Harley fan claims then that may not be a good deal when outside temps get down under 80 F. The fan is still going to come on after you shut down and that is when the noise is a little weird. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
One other thought. On my Harley, they recommend changing out the intake seals every 10,000 miles because the heat cooks them and causes leaks which makes the bike run like shiite. The Buell fan may help extend this time to failure. I've got 40K+ miles on my Harley and I've experienced leaky intake seals and it ain't good. | ||
| Brucelee |
"Is it because the right air scoop actually reduces overall engine temperature" It is not designed to reduce overall engine temperature. It is designed to reduce rear head temp. Just like the left one that Buell put on and just like the fan that Buell put on. | ||
| Teeps |
Electraglider_1997, I'm with you on this point: "I'll buy a right side scoop when Buell offers one for under 100 bucks. For reasons we are not privy to, Buell engineers have forsaken symmetry for a fan that they feel is the answer to engine longevity." However, my theory is emissions compliance. | ||
| Thunderbox |
I certainly wouldn't want my oil temp to be 20 degrees lower than it should be. Oil needs to be at proper temp to work properly, too cold and condensation becomes a big problem. Too hot and oxidization will destroy the oil and consequently the engine. 200 is no where near too hot and 180 is too frigging cold for proper lubrication. I also find that the Uly always runs way better when it is hot. Seems to run the best when the fan is on or cycling. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Even if the sensor was getting "tricked", it's only happening when the bike is MOVING. As soon as you stop or turn off the engine, the whole thing would heat back up very quickly. I don't think the theory that the sensor is getting fooled holds any real weight. | ||
| Brucelee |
If it was getting "tricked" it would be getting tricked by the left side scoop and the fan too! Theory vs Practice on the next Oprah. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Arguing that it cools the head because the fan turns on is a theory. It will only be theory until you prove said statement. Observation is not proof, never has been, never will. I admit what I am stating is a theory, no one is offering valid facts to make the opposite theory anymore valid. You can try to poke all the holes you want in my theory, but until you offer facts that disprove it, it still stands. Remember that by observation in the past “experts” proved that the World was flat. | ||
| Davo |
There has been quite a but of talk about the right side stock scoop, aftermarket right side scoops and the fan. The weak link in the system if there is one is the left side scoop. If that scoop was pointed backwards or straight down it would not effect the operation of the fan or the engine. The front slider and down tube breaks up the air and it is not going down the left side scoop as efficiently as it appears that it should. At highway speed if you put your hand in front of the scoop there is very little if any forced air entering the scoop. If that scoop was capturing air as it appears then the fan would almost never operate at speed in cool weather. I road my Uly 100 miles in January and the temperature was 43 degrees and foggy. The fan ran almost the entire trip. The scoop wasn't scooping and thats why the fan sucks!! | ||
| Brucelee |
"Arguing that it cools the head because the fan turns on is a theory. It will only be theory until you prove said statement. Observation is not proof, never has been, never will." According to Erik's own words and his patent app, the fan is designed specifically to cool the head, "which gets so hot it will literally cook the oil in the head area". Erik's own words. The fan and the scoops are directed at keeping head temps down. Head temps are so high due to the head being buried inside the frame. Erik said nothing about keeping the cyclinder cool by way of the fan and scoop. | ||
| Brucelee |
"The fan ran almost the entire trip. The scoop wasn't scooping and thats why the fan sucks" well said. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Sorry Bruce I should have put all the words in place so you could understand. "Arguing that the right hand side scoop cools the head effectively because the fan does not turn on is a theory." I did not say that the fan did not cool the head, I am saying that the addition of the right side scoop cannot be proven to cool the head (or even aid cooling) properly without factual data. Now, all of that aside Davo hit upon another point. The left side scoop. The left side scoop actually might be a problem. In all other Buells the left side scoop is the intake, correct? Only on the Uly does it become a air scoop for the engine. Maybe taking it off would improve airflow and allow the engine to have more airflow across its fins? Bottom line, until we start getting some REAL testing this is all guessing, and just because you THINK you have a fix, you might not. | ||
| Davo |
I have tried removing the left side and the right side and removing both. I have checked the results carefully with VDSTDS software and there is no improvement in cooling under my riding conditions. I think an improved left side scoop is a good solution. If the scoop was about three to four inches further to the left or if it reached further forward then there would be more of a ram air effect. If this were the case then the fan would not have to run at highway speed. By keeping the stock right side scoop in place it would permit the fan to be more efficient during stop and go periods of operation when it was really needed. This would solved the noisy cruise situation as well as prolong fan life ten fold! Just my $.02! | ||
| Blake |
"which gets so hot it will literally cook the oil in the head area". Care to put that into the proper context in which it was stated?  | ||
| Brucelee |
"The left side scoop actually might be a problem. In all other Buells the left side scoop is the intake, correct? Only on the Uly does it become a air scoop for the engine" This is incorrect. On my 2003 XB9S, the left side scoop serves as both an intake for the fuel injection AND as a cooling tool for the back cylinder. (Message edited by brucelee on August 14, 2006) | ||
| Brucelee |
"Care to put that into the proper context in which it was stated" Care to elaborate or shall we guess at your question? | ||
| Stevem123 |
Theories are just "Fools Gold" until factual proof is presented. That being said, I have a right side scoop coming and as soon as I can get the bike back from the dealer for warranty on the fuel pump and a couple minor cosmetic issues, I will take some before and after IR temp readings as well as the ETs from the ECM. I might even be able to get some thermal images if my work buddy will do them for free. The problem with thermal imaging on this bike is there is no clear view of the rear cylinder and that makes thermal imaging very difficult. The time to remove components like the airbox to get a clear view is too long to see immediatly upon shutdown and removing them ahead of time will effect the airflow and ruin the test. Did I buy the scoop to cool the bike better? Well I do want re-direct as much non-heated air to the rear cylinder as possible but I also wanted the symmetry of having scoops on both sides. That as well as having the headers ceramic coated should lower the heat levels on the right side of the engine significantly. I may also wrap them after they are coated but that would be a last resort for me because I really don't like the downside of header wrap which is header failure from too much internal heat cooking the headers to melt-down. More later, BC Steve | ||
| Dave |
All the fretting over the rear head and lets look at all the Buells (and HDs) made without a scoop/fan cooling the rear head/jug. I see it as the fan is just gravy on the cake. Optimization is the word not catastrophic failure. DAve |
