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Perry
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 07:15 pm: | 
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I have relayed this information to some pretty smart guys but nobody gets it.
Sounds like either they're not as smart as you think they are, or you're not as smart as you think you are.
I'll check my timing - I've been avoiding it because I don't want to have to deal with the rivets and the bike still has extended warranty. Don't want them to give me grief over it one day, but I guess I don't have much choice since they set the timing and told me it's perfect. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 07:28 pm: |
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From the factory my bike's timing was advanced too far. If you do a search you'll see I've been fighting ping for a long time now. I just tend to forget about it when it cools off.
My first summer I found my timing advanced too far even for Buell standards. I didn't know then what I know now on how to set the timing myself, so I took it into the dealer and they set the timing, with limited success. Don't get frustrated. Just copy a link to this page as I have, and the next time someone says something about ping, post a link here. |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:25 pm: |
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Glitch,
It was HOT HOT here today. I took to ULy out for about twenty miles and as I returned home I thrashed it pretty hard. No pinging but I pulled the wheel pretty good going into 2nd. I think I could have done the same going into third but the 35 mpg zone was approaching fast! I am so late it could be considered Twingled. Just kidding not that late!
Perry,
Thanks for pointing out the options; Pinging and self-esteem, gone! |
Anonymouss
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:29 pm: |
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I have noticed some detonation on a number of our demo bikes over the last few years. it has always been on various XB12's. All of the culprits have been stock. Then last week, just for kicks, I installed stock header and a D&D muffler on my 05 12R. I had been running a full Becin race header and muffler with the Buell race kit ECM. out of no where, it starts pinging in the common rpm ranges mentioned in this thread,(near peak torque). After confirming the base timing, I retarted the static timing by 1mm or 3 degrees. This cleaned up most of the pinging, however the the bike feels way down on power(has no nutzz) . Others on this thread have reported 7-9 degree adjustments. I cant imagine how dog slow it would be with the timing pulled so far back. A little goes a long way. So for those who asked about power loss, you will lose power. |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:34 pm: |
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Anonymouss,
Have you ever put a light on a xb? |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:38 pm: |
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Hey Glitch,
I just had an idea. Before you touch the timing go into the airbox and disconnect the cable to the servo and give it a test ride. Anonymouss might have something. Once these mufflers open up they jamb and stay open until they cool off minutes after the fan shuts down. No back pressure! That might be our culprit! |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:42 pm: |
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I have an XB9S. |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:50 pm: |
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Ooops, (Perry called it right) NO servo. Stock exhaust? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 08:54 pm: |
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Not stock.
I bought the bike with the race kit installed.
It's been that way (most of the time) since I picked it up. |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 09:01 pm: |
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It might be interesting to see if back pressure might help you out. The race kit does have more advance curve built in. Plus six degrees at just over 4K with TPS 40. Where is your pinging problem most prevalent? RPM/TPS
(Message edited by davo on July 12, 2006) |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 09:29 pm: |
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Don't know where my TPS is set, it was just set last week by the dealer, if that helps any.
It pings after it gets good and hot right at 4000RPM. No matter which gear I'm in.
I was thinking it may have something to do with the ECM going from open to closed loop.
If I ease on the gas it won't ping.
I'm wanting to get an ECM and Micron from Al, maybe that will fix things up.
But, I have children, one is learning to drive (insurance just almost doubled on the cages), and Marching Band has started, another is 17 and is costing me an arm and a leg in child support, and my youngest is sitting quietly thinking of ways to catch up with his older brothers, so moneys tight... |
Davo
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 09:44 pm: |
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A little trick to track TPS is to put some masking tape on the bars and index the throttle from 0-100 percent. At idle you are at about 3-4 percent. At wide open throttle you are at 100. You are correct about the closed to open loop transition but I think your problem is timing. If you ease on the throttle and it quits pinging it is because the advances drops a couple of degrees past 4K if you increase rpm to 4.5K or increase TPS or increase both rpm and TPS. The cool thing about wrenching is fixing stuff w/o spending a bunch of money. The guys that used to eat us up at the circle tracks were the guys that didn't have the bucks! The rich guys depended on hardware but their RAM was lacking! |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 09:59 pm: |
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Thanks again Davo!
I think my problem is timing as well.
I'll have time to work on the bike this weekend.
The cool thing about wrenching is fixing stuff w/o spending a bunch of money.
Necessity is the mother of my wrench. |
Perry
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 04:03 pm: |
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Necessity is the mother of my wrench.
And my wrench has become necessity.
I plan to check static timing tonight, but if it's bad I won't be able to change it until the weekend.
Running 91 octane I get ping from 3000 rpm to about 4500, anytime, any gear once the engine is up to temp and I roll the throttle on more than the tiniest bit.
With octane boost at 3x recommended rate, I get ping in the same range with anything more than "normal" acceleration you would use when riding around town. Hit it a bit hard and it pings like crazy and instantly loses like 30% of the power. Obviously I've never let it ping like that more than a fraction of a second. |
Davo
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 04:58 pm: |
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It is easier to change it than to check it but it is a good idea to see where it is. Get some help to watch the mark! |
Vaneo1
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 05:18 pm: |
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I'm wanting to get an ECM and Micron from Al, maybe that will fix things up.
But, I have children, one is learning to drive (insurance just almost doubled on the cages), and Marching Band has started, another is 17 and is costing me an arm and a leg in child support, and my youngest is sitting quietly thinking of ways to catch up with his older brothers, so moneys tight...
Thats awesome man, way to go super dad! I love hearing when parents actually take care of their kids. Were I live it seems a bit uncommon, congrats man } |
Anonymouss
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 05:22 pm: |
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Davo
No have not put a light on a xb. None of the XB12's that were pinging were doing so in a harsh manner.( not that any pinging is good). In each case it was minimal accept for my personal bike which was not stock.
Also, the exhaust servos and muffler valves were functioning properly on all the bikes. |
Davo
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 06:49 pm: |
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Anonymouss,
Thanks for the info. The reason that I asked about the light is because I found what I believe to be a timing disparity. If the factory techs think that the CPS is straight up at hot idle then there is a problem. If the straight up alignment is to build in an initial advance value then everything is ok. You have access to a Digital Tech and I do not. I use a VDSTS by Techno Research and according to their numbers the timing is way early if set up according to the book. Thanks again!!
My bike is about 7 degrees late by factory standards and it pulls the wheel going into second gear, gets 55 mpg and never pings anymore........so far!
(Message edited by davo on July 13, 2006)
(Message edited by davo on July 13, 2006) |
Sokota
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:29 pm: |
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I tried the Lucas octane booster Max has referred to in previous posts , it works. I have tried other octane boosters in different bikes and felt no difference in performance , It has given my City Cross a noticable awakening. I am not having any pinging issues with this 984 , but the performance gain I feel would go along way to curing some pinging on a 12. It is $10 for 15 oz which treats up to 25 gallons,lead free ,O2 safe it claims. For me it will be occasional bottle of fun ,Thanks Max. P.S Lucas makes real products for real racers |
Perry
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 02:19 pm: |
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I checked the timing last night - it is indeed slightly advanced. When the fuel pump cycles on, the indicator is not straight in the middle but rather midway between center and the left edge.
I would add that while it was recommended by others to do the check with someone to help, I found that putting the bike up on the rear stand allowed me to simply turn the wheel with my hand while watching the indicator hole. It took a bit of effort to turn, but it was really pretty easy to check the timing.
Unfortunately my timing doesn't seem to be off by a large amount though - so I am not expecting the ping to go away entirely with timing adjustment. I guess I'll find out tonight when I make the adjustment. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 05:35 pm: |
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It does not take a huge amount of adjustment to make a big difference in how your bike runs.
A couple of degrees is usually all it takes. |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 08:07 pm: |
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Perry
If you are halfway to straight up on the left, 1mm should put you on the mark. Give the bike hot and load the bike and do some roll ons at 3K and then bring it up through 4k. It will ping less but you may need to go another 1mm to reduce the ping significantly. |
Davo
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 09:01 pm: |
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This is a picture of the orientation of the rotor vanes for TDC of #1. I pulled the No.1 plug to verify compression stroke on the approach. Note the location of the part numbers. If you want to set your timing to go straight up (factory setting) then install the CPS. Line up the CPS with your index mark or the scars made on the base plate by the fastening screws. Turn on the key and ignition switch then turn the CPS counterclockwise about 1/4" then slowly back clockwise until the fuel pump cycles then stop and tighten the two flat head anchor screws. I would then check the timing by turning the rear wheel to verify the mark location. My mark is all the way to the right side of the hole. In fact you can not even see it when the fuel pump cycles. I do not recommend that you retard the timing that late unless you continue to have unacceptable pinging.
(Message edited by davo on July 14, 2006)
(Message edited by davo on July 14, 2006) |
Glitch
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 02:04 pm: |
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So far as I can tell (without anyone to help me at the moment) it looks as though I'm too far advanced. Just as the mark comes into the sight window the fuel pump starts (I think). I'll have to verify this when I can get someone to help, or I can borrow a rear stand. I hope this is all that it is. Setting the timing per Davo's tips is a simple process. |
Davo
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
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Glitch,
If that is the case then go around again and see where it is the next time the mark appears. If it is at the same location when the fuel pump cycles then you have found your problem! You are indeed too far advanced! I would retard the timing 2 mm but go 1mm each time and test. I would retard 1mm and test.
If the mark comes up again on the next revolution and it is closer to straight up then I think you have found that the bike is set up to factory specs which I believe is still too far advanced for summer temperatures, stock compression ratio, pump gas and a 14.7 air fuel target ratio. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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Yeah I read that in the manual.
I was having a really hard time trying to see with only myself to rotate the flywheel, and look in the sight hole.
The rear stand I was going to borrow, is holding up a Blast, New12r and I are replacing a jug and piston. We got the engine put back together last night, all that's left is get the intake, exhaust, gas tank...and stuff, put back on and we're done.
I love how simple these bikes are, and the Blast is a perfect example of a simple bike that works well.
Hopefully I'll have my bike wrapped up this afternoon, and I'll be able to report that the timing has been set, and all is good. |
Davo
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 01:26 pm: |
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Looking forward to your results. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 04:09 pm: |
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SUCCESS!
When the fuel pump cycles on, the indicator is not straight in the middle but rather midway between center and the left edge.
Mine also.
I set it to come on midway between center and right edge.
I just got back from a very hot 91o two hour run through the local crooked roads.
After she got good and hot I started trying to make her ping. Nada!
Hammering out of turns, power +1, ping 0.
Hard acceleration 2nd gear wheelies, grins +1, ping 0.
Just getting hard on the gas in 4th at 4000RPM, scoot factor +1, ping 0.
All of this would have made it ping last time I rode.
When I ride her into work will be the real test, the ride home is famous for being hot, stop and go traffic.
Thanks Davo, for all the good advice and question answering. I'm saving a link to this for safe keeping, and also a link in the KV somewhere.
Thanks also to Smokescreen for letting me use his battery charger. I left the key on a couple of times. Also his rear stand was a major help. I found also that with a rear stand the help you need is more like someone handing you a beer, rather than anything else.
So here to y'all!
 |
Davo
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 04:27 pm: |
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Great news! 44mag has a similar result on the "Big Bad and Dirty" "timing" thread. Stop and go traffic will be the big test. Another factor is the quality of the fuel where you are. If you get a little ping after significant stop and go you might have to retard a shade more if you are straight up now but I hope you never hear that ping again!! Ride and enjoy! |
Kybueller
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 04:30 pm: |
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Mine still seems to ping some, so I might need to retard the timing on mine as well. Thanks for the info on here. It will help.
Greg |
Captpete
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
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For whatever it is worth, a word of caution about 100LL avgas. The name low lead is deceiving. It is low lead compared to the leaded avgas that preceded it. But it has tons of lead in it. I’m sorry, I don’t have the statistics handy to prove this, but I know from experience how fouled the plugs in a Lycoming O540 become when burning it. |
44mag
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 01:30 am: |
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The 100LL has so much lead that it leaves a white film on your hand when it evaporates (I was told that this is lead). I put high compression cylinders on my O320 which eliminated much of the lead fouling problems. What is the compression ratio of the Uly engine? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 09:35 am: |
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10.0:1 |
Perry
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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I adjusted my timing similar to glitch - it had been midway between center and the edge (advanced) and I rotated just over 1 mm to where the indicator is about midway the other direction (retarded).
I let it idle for five minutes, then rode it hard for about twenty to get it nice and warm. It was 101 degrees out, and I tried to make it ping. I could still get a slight ping, but only at WOT at around 4K (rolled on at 3K), but it is much better than I ever expected - it went from a useless dog to a very usable machine. I still have a triple dose of octane boost in my gas though.
Stop and go on the way home tonight (supposed to be 100 degrees again) so that will be the real test.
My goal is to get to where the octane boost in the hot summer is enough to avoid ping.
FYI - when I opened my timing cover the inside plate looks nothing like your picture above - what up with that? I'll get a picture later. I thread tapped the inner cover so that I don't have to jack around with rivets - thanks for the tip.
One last observation - I notice no performance difference with the timing change. I didn't dyno it, but it seems to run better/smoother if anything. |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:20 pm: |
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Perry,
If the part numbers of the rotor were on the right then you were 180 out. You need to rotate the crank another rotation and watch for the mark again. If you were looking at the mark at 180 out you need to go retard just a shade further and the pinging should go away.
(Message edited by davo on July 17, 2006) |
Davo
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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Glitch,
How was the ride home? Were you ping free?
Did you notice the fan was taking longer to turn on? Does the motor spin up quicker? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:29 am: |
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I've not had the chance to ride to work yet, not in any real hurry either since it's been in the mid to upper 90s all week, with no relief in sight.
I've been out on a few local runs though. Beautiful!
The motor is acting the way it should, and the way it used to. Not sure about spinning up faster, just better.
On my hottest ride, it was about 90o out, and I went to some local back roads, I was listening to the engine the whole time. I never noticed the fan coming on while I was riding. But, I couldn't tell you if it came on or not to be honest. The fan has never bothered me, and I've never had a problem ignoring it.
It did come on when I shut off the bike and went into low speed fairly quickly.
It was hot and I wanted out of my gear, so I don't know how long it stayed on.
Thursday is Bike Night.
That'll be a good test, as I'll have to ride from the 'burbs, to the city.
And, I'm sure, it'll be hot... |
Kybueller
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 09:40 am: |
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I guess I am going to have to retard my timing a little . Mine still pings under load in hot traffic, which I know can happen. It does not do it on the open road when the air is flowing good. Thanks for the good info. It is in the mid-90's here also and the humidity is brutal here in KY. Zaps the desire to ride at times.
Greg |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 05:12 pm: |
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Glitch, just wanted to say I'm glad you're wearing your gear, even when it's hot out! |
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