| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
Installed a set of the Lyndall Gold racing brakes a few weeks ago. I broke them in properly and they seem to work great for every day riding and somewhat spirited riding. Today I decided to make a few runs down the spars (9 miles of tight canyon road and two that are higher speed). The first run went alright and I decided to pick it up a bit and have a little more fun... Admittedly they were already hot from about 25 miles of somewhat spirited riding. For that 25 miles I was using the brakes but not that hard really. The last run headed in this direction they lasted about three or four miles and began to fade. They worked alright and then went away quickly. I got on the brakes for a 70MPH left hand kink and something didn't feel quit right all of a sudden. I squeezed harder than I figured I should need to and got slowed down plenty (probably coulda taken the turn w/o even using the brakes, but I like to leave some in reserve when there's a cliff involved). They had most certainly faded badly. I ran the bike up to about 85 and got hard on the brakes... Very weak. If I had pulled them that hard when cooler it would have face planted me very quickly. Rode to the gas station somewhat slowly and had my usual smoke and then came home. I'll be replacing them ASAP with the EBC HH's that I used before. They never faded and I've pushed them harder for MUCH longer distances. I like the feel of them better as well. The damn things are probably glazed now so I'll have to take them out and fix them tomorrow too... Damnit. | ||
| Gowindward |
How fresh is your brake fluid? | ||
| M1combat |
23K miles/2.5 years but with the EBC's at 22K it was fine. The brakes have never faded before even being pushed harder for much longer distances. This is the first time I've really pushed the Lyndall's. | ||
| Robino |
first negative i've seen about the Lyndalls and there are many racers who use them faithfully. i'd say you're either employed by EBC or something's awfully wrong with your Buell's braking system...(hoping anyway as i just bought a set of Lyndalls...oops) (Message edited by robino on July 07, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
Well... It could be the braking system I suppose. I'm not opposed to being wrong for sure but I've pushed the stock pads and the EBC's pretty hard and never felt any fade what so ever. I posted about them once just after I got them broken in. I felt that they have next to no feel, They have less overall power and that they smell cool when they heat up (they do, they have a burnt CF smell  ) and they have less initial bite (they don't feel "sticky" just as you apply the brakes) compared to the EBC's. They seem to be easier to modulate but only because they don't feel as "hard" as the EBC's. They feel slightly "damped". Almost like I need to bleed the brakes but I did and they seem to be bled properly. I attribute it to them having a softer pad material. With the EBC's I could pretty much feel the cooling holes going through the pads in the lever but with the Lyndalls I can't really feel anything... (Message edited by M1Combat on July 08, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
I guess "never felt any fade what so ever" is a little un-true... With the EBC's they would work well up to a certain point and then fall off just a HAIR as they got hotter, but stay at that level when they were hot/hotter/hottest. They NEVER just plain quit. | ||
| Blake |
"23K miles/2.5 years but with the EBC's at 22K it was fine." Don, I strongly suggest that you replace your brake fluid before making such a hasty condemnation of the Lyndal pads. Typically brakes fade due to vaporization of small, minute amounts of moisture in the fluid. No brake pad will fix that. If you like strong bite, try the Nissen 304 compound pads. Be careful, they have some seriously strong initial bite. | ||
| 1stbuell |
I'm pretty satisfied with my Lyndalls and I ride on the track only. They do not have the same initial "bite" as the stock or EBC pads and you do have to use a little more force but they do have more "feel". I haven't noticed much fade at all with mine and they are run fairly hard and hot. Hope you figure it out. (And no I am not a Lyndall employee)  | ||
| Gowindward |
I agree with Blake, that's why I asked how fresh is the brake fluid. I have about 4K on a set of Lyndall Gold pads. I agree that they do not have the same "bite" as the stock pads, which I liked. I do feel like they are more progressive, or have a longer curve to their bite. I too need to change my brake fluid though. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Nothing but positive feedback from mine. They get a real workout when I'm in N. Georgia and I've never experienced any fade noticeable enough to complain about. I was never happy with the front brake until I installed the Lyndall Gold pads. My experience with them pretty much duplicates almost everyone elses - less initial bite, more feel and better control. | ||
| Henrik |
It could be the pads - if the Lyndall pads transfer more heat into the caliper/fluid than the old pads? But it's also possible that your brake fluid is toast. I've had the brakes on the SV fade on me. Turned out to be the fluid - only a few months old, but a few track weekends took it out of it. I now run the high $$ Motul fluid and haven't had any trouble yet. It'd be interesting if you could change the fluid, do a good bleed and then give them another try. Henrik | ||
| Blake |
Good point on the heat transfer characteristics of the pads Henrik. I agree. I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a layer of insulative material between pad and backing and/or at contacting portion of the pistons to help reduce heating of the caliper. I wonder if care is taken to put a finish on the backing plates that has a low emissivity on their piston facing side. All of a sudden, a disk brake isn't so simple as it might seem. Interesting stuff. | ||
| M1combat |
That may be a good point... Pads gettng a little warmer and pushing the fluid over the edge... I'll certainly change the fluid and report back. I'll also re-finish the rotor and pads just to be sure there's no glaze. Maybe this weekend... | ||
| Blake |
Not necessarily getting warmer, possibly just transferring more of their warmth (heat) to the calipers. I'm gonna try that Motul racing brake fluid that Henrik recommends myself, at least if they make it in a DOT 5. | ||
| M1combat |
What's involved is switching from DOT4 to DOT5? Is 5 "better" for various reasons? I would assume it comes down to a complete disassembly and cleaning of the setup and then just filling with 5? | ||
| Henrik |
The Motul stuff is DOT 4. I actually went the opposite way on the S2 - cleaned everything *exceedingly* well and am now using DOT 4 rather than DOT 5 on both the S2 and SV650. Can't remember all I dug up at the time, but AFAIR DOT 4 will give a firmer lever as it's not compressible. The DOT 5 however is supposedly highly compressible. Of course the downside to DOT 4 is that it absorbs water and likely needs changing more often than DOT 5. The newer DOT 4 brake fluids supposedly have boiling points similar to DOT 5 fluids. Oh, and DOT 4 will do a serious number on your paint if you spill ....! Anyway, for better braking performance I'd stick with quality DOT 4. Here's an interesting Motul interview: http://www.motorspot.com/motulin.html Henrik | ||
| Blake |
Don, Your assumption is correct. | ||
| Skyguy |
What is "complete disassembly"? I need to change my fluid. | ||
| M1combat |
Thank you. Why would anyone use Dot five then if it was highly compressible? Just ease of maintenance? | ||
| M1combat |
Just read the article... Thanks for that too. Just for the record, the 351C is my favorite engine and the GT-40 and Pantera are my favorite cars. There's a VERY nice looking Pantera on Ebay atm. SkyGuy - What I was thinking was a complete teardown of the caliper and master cyl, cleaning with solvent and then reassembly with the proper rebuild kits. I wouldn't think you would have to do that to just change fluid. Couldn't hurt at all though. I probably would. (Message edited by M1Combat on July 11, 2006) | ||
| Skyguy |
I had a Pantera, I miss it badly. Going to be a while before I can afford another one. | ||
| Blake |
Skyguy, They are talking about switching from one type of brake fluid to another entirely different type of fluid, from DOT 5 to 4 or vice versa. To just replace your brake fluid, no disassembly is necessary. Sorry if that is not what you meant. In order to switch from one type to another, you'd want to disassemble everything, master cylinder, lines, caliper(s) and thoroughly clean, like with electrical contact cleaner, any and all residue of brake fluid from the system. Don, I've raced and even with the rubber brake line, even my inferior smaller disked Cyclone's front brake, when it has new DOT 5 fluid, is perfectly fine. My brake lever in such cases has never come close to bottoming out. OHR is fairly hard on the brakes, so I'd think I'd have experienced trouble if the DOT 5 weren't up to the task. Good news for you though. The XBs all use DOT 4 fluid. Check your owner's manual to be sure. Henrik, Where did you glean the info that DOT 5 is significantly more compressible than DOT 4 fluid? I'd be very surprised if the effect/contribution of the compressibility of the fluid is anywhere near that of the elastic system containing it, mainly the brake lines. | ||
| Henrik |
DOT4/DOT5; I did some web searching, and most comparisons mention some level of compressibility for the silicone based DOT5 fluids as opposed to the glycol based DOT4 fluids. Having no personal tests to support or refute those claims, that's what I have to go on... :-) This first link mention a higher air content in the silicone based fluids than in the glycol based fluids as a reason for the compressibility. http://www.bobbyarchermotorsports.com/pdf_2848_2.pdf http://www.vtr.org/maintain/brake-fluids.shtml http://superchevy.com/technical/chassis/brakes/0509sc_fluid/ and here's a very cool general brake info link: http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html If there is indeed a compressibility factor to the DOT5 fluid, then I think the major advantage of the DOT4 is a more "direct" feel for the brake without a "rubber band" effect of compressible fluid as well as stretch in the lines. Total lever travel is of course a factor as well, but as long as you don't hit your fingers (I do 2-finger braking) or the grip you're fine. Oh, and there is of course the confusion of the DOT 5.1 fluid which is glycol based but with boiling points similar to DOT5 ... but the 2 are incompatible. In retrospect I think the Motul RBF600 fluid may be a DOT5.1 fluid - it's not clear from any of the resellers I could find, and the MOTUL website plain sucks. As for cleaning, I used rubbing alcohol - I believe it was recommended in my service manual?? As Blake described, I completely disassembled everything, cleaned thoroughly and rebuilt with rebuild kits. Henrik | ||
| Blake |
Interesting. Thanks for the links. | ||
| M1combat |
Understood about the XB being Dot4 . I was under the impression that 5 was better before I read the articles. I always wondered why Buell used Dot4 ... now I know. Time to change my fluid (replace with 4) then . I ride in the rain every time I can make an excuse to because we don't get a lot here... | ||
| Henrik |
Don; go high end on that DOT4 or go for the new DOT5.1. Like I mentioned, I've had good luck with the MOTUL RBF600 stuff. Only buy as much as you need and dump/recycle the rest. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
I also was less than overwhelmed by Lyndall pads -- freach fluid, well bled (thanks Henrik!), and followed the break in procedure as best as I could -- now, all that said, the brake in (get it?) may not have put as much heat into the pads as they'd like, so I'll take the responsibility for that one -- once the pads got good and warm, they worked pretty nicely, but not a huge amount better than many other bads that do not require glowing in the dark before going to work -- in my riding environment, one of the most dangerous streaches of road starts the minute I turn outa my driveway, and I'd like my brakes to punch in when the engine does . . .. . | ||
| Skully |
I like the Lyndall pads for the street. They cleaned the deposits left behind by the stock pads. However, when I put my XB on the track for the first time last year and began to lower my lap times, the brakes began to fade just as M1 described. I installed the Nissin 804 pads, returned to the track, and never had the fade return running similar, if not faster, lap times. The initial bite is stronger with the 804s and no deposits on the rotors to date. See http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=6817&post=654068#POST 654068 Keith |
