| Author | Message | ||
     Max |
I have used octane booster help that problem.I use a lead free type (lucas oil) work for me. I went that do to NOPI endorse it ricer car guys they are real pickee.This product will not harm o2 sensor. I haven't had any ping for long time now. My bike seems not to run rich anymore as well. (Message edited by max on July 09, 2006) | ||
| Vaneo1 |
wow well this shed light on a thread I posted a while back. It was titled, "good go-go juice". In it I said I used 101 octane fuel and all pinging was gone even in the heat. Many opposed and said I would ruin the o2 sensor, blah, blah, blah, arm chair criticism. IMO thats what remedied the pinging, 91 just doesnt cut it out here in Cali, and not to mention its got a lot of ethanol mixed in. I love these bikes because their like an ongoing science experiment on two wheels. and I dont mean that in a derrogative manner, thats probably what keeps me from getting board and throwing some racing stickers on my bike, Im still trying to figure out the science behind it. | ||
| Davo |
I would be interested if anyone using fuel enhancers with a VDSTS to post their garage arrival engine temperatures with the engine running. It would be helpful to include IAT as well so that there can be a comparison between engine temps and intake air temps. My bike is bone stock with 93 octane w 10 ethanol. My arrival temps are 397-403 when ambient temperature is 85 F - 95 F. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Vaneo1 I remember that thread, I do recall warning you that many of the octane boosters out there use lead and would ruin the o2 sensor. This is still true. Higher octane fuel will prevent pinging, however in a stock engine it shouldn't be neccessary. The inland valley does get pretty hot, but as has been said before I'd be looking at timing as a more permanent fix to your problem. I'm running a high compression (11.43:1) motor on 93 octane in temps up to around 100 degrees here without excessive pinging. There's no real reason you should have to carry around octane booster with a stock motor. A static timing adjustment is very easy to do, and is purportedly a commonly incorrect setting either due to altitude differences from the factory to the customer's houses or whatever. It probably wouldn't hurt to check into it, especially with the price of gas these days!  | ||
| Davo |
Diablobrian, Is your static setting straight up? Do you have any pinging in hot weather? | ||
| Max |
Brian may be correct on some older octane boosters. Lot new one very o2 safe. I read much of them when I was at Pep boys. Seems that more then 80% them were o2 safe and no lead. I'm run full race kit on my XB12R I use 93 octane.Like I said in my other thread lucas octane booster I picked do to the support on the product. I don't why a stock xb would be running so hot.May want use a better oil or try using higher octane.I'm not sure adjusting time unless you know what you are doing. So far my bike been running fine on the lucas supplement additive. I read there was some additive for oil to help it cool down, on some forum. Not sure if it was on this forum or chicagolandsportbike forum.  I found it I was going try this last year. Maybe worth the try see if work for v-twins. http://www.two2cool.com/turboshop/affiliate.php?id=29 (Message edited by max on July 09, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
My static timing was set by Hal's, I haven't had to adjust it. I will check it next time I drop my belly pan though. Max, It only takes one dose from one bottle to waste the o2 sensor. In the presence of any lead it will go bad in seconds. I've seen it at the track. Be careful of oil additives. Many are just snake-oil type products, others can actually cause damage to your motor, seals, or electrical components. Please use extreme caution with this kind of stuff! "there aint no such thing as a free lunch" (Message edited by diablobrian on July 09, 2006) | ||
| Max |
Well Lucas one says lead free if my o2 goes bad I'm will be calling my lawyer.I heard that about some motor oils killing staters like mobile oil.I hear that from a bueller at homecoming.Some oils out there will eat copper up on stater. You retard your timing you f'up two. I do work on car That can cause problem as well. I guess there many fixs that may work or not it up to you pick one.My fix has work with no problem I have been doing it for two month now. I would love to find some 100 octane some were near me. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Anything taken to extremes is bad. I'm surprised that people look at the factory timing setting as some sort of inviolable thing while they modify everything else. Like all things adjustments need to be done very cautiously. Of course too much retarding of the timing is bad. Just like too much timing advance is bad. | ||
| Sokota |
Question for Davo, [first thanks, your posts have been very informative and researched] Have you noticed a difference in the power and fuel consumption with the 7 to 9 degrees retarding ? So the mark on the flywheel will be past center when viewing thru timing plug hole? My 05 City Cross is not having any problems but am curious to see where the factory has it set. | ||
| Kybueller |
Well the fuel I have been using the last few days is a 100 Octane Low Lead fuel. So now I guess I should not be running this anymore due to the sensor. I hope I have not screwed up my sensor. I will not run anymore of this fuel. It is very low lead though. My bike ran well on it and stayed cool. I could tell a difference. Greg | ||
| Kybueller |
I thought all higher Octane fuels outside of the norms would have some lead in them. The AVGas I am using is low lead and I assume safe for aviation O2 sensors. My father-in-law uses this gas in his Turbo Arrow. I tell you this, the pinging is gone. Totally. However, the pinging was just one event, so I will run 93 the next time and see how it fares. Greg | ||
| Diablobrian |
Dynamic usually 3 or more wire o2 sensors are not as sensitive to low lead fuels as our passive o2 sensors because ours do not use a heating element like the dynamic ones. The lead "plating" process on the sensor happens when the sensor is (relatively) cold. Ky, if you start having trouble with your bike running oddly you have a starting point for finding the problem at least. You may not have hit the critical level of lead yet. Many of the Japanese bikes also come with dynamic o2 sensors so what works for them, or in a car, may not be safe for us to use in our bikes. It is fairly simple to update your o2 sensor to a 3 wire dynamic sensor. The PC3 for instance requires one and dynojet probably still has the o2 sensor available, or you could get one from your local auto parts store if you are proficient in electrical repairs. If you're not sure then I would suggest you ask someone to help you do it. I'm not trying to flame or disparage anyone here, I'm trying to help people avoid trouble with their bikes. | ||
| Davo |
Sokota, I have not noticed a "significant" reduction in performance due to the fact that before my changes I could not open the bike up because of the pre-ignition problems. You are correct about the location of the TDC mark. Mine is not even visible when the fuel pump cycles or the CPS pin goes to 5 volts. The mark is just past the right side of the hole. I do not recommend that people set their timing as late as mine. My recommendation is to retard to the point where the pinging stops and then document the position. I strongly recommend marking the existing location in the cone with a very fine pick or awl. This is the point of return if you get lost during the procedure. I found that by removing the front plug before the procedure it allows you to have a "soft" approach to TDC on the number 1 cylinder. Not only does it help by making the approach smoother, it also indicates that a "soft" approach to the mark is indeed TDC of No. 1 and not 180 degrees out. My fuel economy has actually improved after making the timing change. I am now getting about 55 mpg highway (65-70 mph). The bike is running cooler. It takes longer for the fan to turn on now. My garage arrival temperatures are about the same, 397-403 F. The bike starts better and spins up faster and freer. I have noticed more heat in the front pipe during suspended idling. It will go orange quicker than before. The rear header does not due to the fan operation at idle. My header pipe temps are still in the normal area and are 100 F cooler than my HD touring bike. | ||
| Glitch |
Davo, Could you please tell in detail what you did. What you have said here is *almost* enough for me to go out and do it myself. I have a service manual, so if you would like you could reference the book and only tell where you did something different. Tools you used? Thanks much, and also if you could put it in another thread so I can link it to the KV for future reference. Thanks in advance...if you decide to do it that is It would be most helpful if you would. | ||
| Davo |
Glitch, The Engine thread was closed to new threads in KV so here it is. This is the procedure that I used on my xb12x (Uly). I hope it is complete. If there are any gross errors I know someone will chime in and correct me. 1. Drill out the two rivets on the timing cone cover. Be very careful not to scratch up the cover. A new/sharp 1/8” or 3/16” drill bit works well. After going through the rivet just walk the bit around the perimeter of the hole until the rivet head falls off. Do not extend the bit into the case more than about 3/8”- ½”. 2. Remove the outer timing cover. 3. Remove the two Phillips screws that hold the inner cover. 4. Remove the inner cover. 5. Very carefully index the CPS (cam position sensor) base plate with the inside of the timing cone so that you know where the timing was before you changed it. You can always go back to the factory setting. I used a very small dental style pick to scratch a mark on the outer perimeter of the CPS base and the same point on the inner cone of the cover. The index marks should be very fine because each millimeter is equivalent to 3 degrees of spark timing. My marks are so fine that I need to use a magnifying glass to make sure the index marks are correct. 6. Loosen the two CPS base plate fasteners just enough to free the CPS enough to rotate. You need a large flat head screw driver. I use a hollow ground screw driver that fits the slot exactly so the fasteners do not get marred up. 7. Rotate the CPS plate 1mm counter-clockwise to retard the timing 3 degrees. If you have a wire type spark plug gapping gauge the .040 gauge is exactly 3 degrees. Note- The inner cover diameter is 78 mm therefore the circumference is 245.0442 mm (diameter X pi (3.1416)). There is 720 crank degrees (two full turns 2 X 360) for every full rotation of the cam so divide 245.0442 by 720 and you get 0.3403 mm for each degree of the crank. So then 3 degrees is equal to 1.0210 mm. 8. Make sure there is no rivet debris in the cone area. 9. Tighten the flat head fastening screws (do not over tighten them just snug them down) and verify that the CPS has moved about 1 mm counter clockwise by looking at the space that now exists between the two index marks. 10. I recommend that you reinstall the inner cover plate with the Phillips screws, being careful not to over tighten them, and leave the outer cover off until you know the new setting is satisfactory. If you are concerned about dust and water then put a little electrical tape over the rivet holes. 10. After several test rides, re-install the outer cover with new HD rivets (you will need a rivet pop rivet gun and be VERY careful because when it pops you WILL scratch the cover if you do not put a cloth around the nose or the rivet gun) or you can remove the inner cover and tap the two rivet holes with a 10-32 tap and purchase two stainless steel hex head 10-32 bolts about 3/8” long. The tap and the bolts are cheaper than a bag of ten HD rivets. There are two holes that you do not use so practice with the tap with them. Do not try to tap the holes with the inner cover in place. If you go this route then you can make timing adjustments on the road if you find a tank of bad gas or you can wind up your timing at the track when “go fast” fuel is available. Always give your AFV about 15 minutes of easy run time to readjust after you readjust. I would recommend checking your static timing just for kicks before the procedure. Just follow the manual and substitute the fuel pump turning on for the scanyliser going to 5 volts. Get some assistance with this it is very easy to scratch up your air box with your belt or even drop the bike if you attempt it alone. I use fifth gear and slowly push the bike. Be careful not to let debris get into the timing window and once again do not over tighten the timing plug. Its torque specification is 120 in-lbs which is only 10 ft-lbs. If you tighten the plug any more than that it will strip the case! Always use anti seize when steel threads into aluminum. Just a little film is necessary on the threads. Always start the threads and turn the plug in by hand. I use a 3/8” drive 3/8” allen head socket. I use ¼ adapters down to ¼ then to a 6” ¼” drive extension and then back up to a 3/8” drive into my wrench. This combination prevents the header and the case from getting scratched by a fatter 3/8” drive extension. The ¼”drive up to 3/8”drive adapter is rare in most tool boxes but Craftsman has a small package of assorted adapters that contains this valuable tool. | ||
| Typeone |
Davo, i responded to your note, sorry for the delay... this was the detail i couldn't remember.. . One thing to keep in mind when adjusting the cam position sensor (static timing plate) is that you're affecting the entire fuel curve too. When you retard the timing, you're removing fuel. For my ping problem, this was compounding the issue. I eventually had it reset to factory spec by a very competent tech and left it there. Jury is still out on my ping, only experienced it once this season so far but we haven't hit the superHot months yet. Time will tell. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Nice write-up Davo | ||
| Glitch |
Very nice Davo, excellent! One question, or I'm not so bright could you please explain this procedure... Just follow the manual and substitute the fuel pump turning on for the scanyliser going to 5 volts. Thanks again for the detailed write up!  | ||
| Davo |
The factory uses a "Digital Technician" (not a scanyliser sorry) which the public does not have access to. It is simply monitoring the CPS voltage. If you read the manual on page 1-45 they walk you through the factory procedure. I listen for the fuel pump to turn on because it turns on at the exact moment that the CPS voltage goes to 5 volts. I have tested it with a DVOM (digital volt ohm meter) at the connector pin on the ECM. It is on the right on the money! If the factory wants to change my timing back to stock I will be glad to sell it back to them. I will make them a deal but until then I need the bike to run well and not ping. | ||
| Glitch |
Davo, that's exactly what I was asking for. It's kind of what I thought you were saying, but I wanted to be sure. Thank you very much! | ||
| Davo |
Glad I could help. Let me know how it goes. If retarding the bike is destructive then I will be the first to know. I have never hurt an engine by over retarding it. If the Buell goes south then I will get something else and lick my wounds. As much as I love the bike, I am having trouble recommending it to anyone that asks me about it. I wish that I could feel more confident about it because the bike has great potential. Dealing with the issues on my Uly has run me away from Buell and even HD as well. I bought 3 HD motorcycles in 03 and the Buell in 06. After my experience with my Uly I do not think I will ever buy another Buell and I would think very hard before buying another HD. I have really been put off by the way the dealer people do not support DIY customers. I have been trying to get my Uly road worthy and the factory guys have not added one piece of information to the topic. It seems they think they have to keep the genee in the bottle and I don't even think she's in there. | ||
| Whodom |
If retarding the bike is destructive then I will be the first to know. I have never hurt an engine by over retarding it. If you over-retard it, you will know it pretty quickly. I had the timing overly retarded on an automobile engine I rebuilt once. I thought I had it set right at TDC which would have been close enough for the initial cranking and run-in. It cranked OK and I got it up to ~2000 RPM as recommended by the cam manufacturer (to ensure good lubrication of the cam lobes during break-in). Within about 5 minutes, the exhaust manifold was glowing red (visible in daylight)!!! As I understand it, what happens in this situation is the fuel/air mixture is lit off so late in the stroke that it's still burning when the exhaust valve opens and so the engine is expelling a still-burning mixture out the exhuast. I quickly connected a timing light and figured out the static timing was about 15 degrees retarded. I set it where it was supposed to be (~5 degrees BTDC IIRC) and quickly got it back up to speed. The engine suffered no long-term ill effects, but it sure scared the crap out of me! | ||
| Whodom |
BTW, Harleys at least as recently as the early 1960's had manual spark advances; the left grip was a twist grip that changed the timing. This was particularly useful for kick start bikes; the timing could be retarded to make the bike easier to start. I also remember seeing an aftermarket widget in a JC Whitney auto parts catalog (at least 20 years ago) which allowed the static timing in a modern automobile to be adjusted from the dash. It consisted of a small worm gear that mounted at the base of the distributor. A dial mounted under the dash twisted a flexible shaft, which turned the worm gear, which twisted the distributor slightly to advance or retard the static timing. The centrifugal and vacuum advances still worked normally; this just allowed the initial timing to be varied by the driver while seated in the car. Seems to me something like this would be very useful to have for people having spark knock problems with their XB's. (Message edited by whodom on July 12, 2006) | ||
| Glitch |
Davo. WRT your dealership woes, that is a problem. Our local dealership has come a long way. Mainly because we've got a relatively large Buell base going. Also there has been some resent competition as of late, because Buells in our area are becoming more and more popular. Another thing that has helped is the fact that none of the Buellers I know are shy. We've all gotten to know the general manager, all the parts people, and as many of the service guys as we can (that seems to be where the most turn over is). When something goes wrong it is voiced (politely of course), and fortunately they want to do a good job, and they want our business. They do know we'll go elsewhere if needed. Another thing that helps WRT the dealership is the fact we are a bunch of DIYers. I was kind of surprised at how the dealership's service department has such difficulty dealing with DIYers. Times they are a changin' Too slow it seems when you need something done, or need help, but at least things are changing. | ||
| Vaneo1 |
Ping, ping. ping, ping thats what I hear when Im out during the day in the hot ass heat just as Im taking off from a stop light while letting the clutch out. During normal cruising its gone, I was playing around today with trying to ride a little different but no luck. at night when it get cooler out all is how it should be, I actually feel I can beat a jap bike off the line but only at night hwne the weather is cooler out. Today my right thigh/ groin area felt like it was on fire becuase it just got so damn hot. I know what this thread has established but can a "timing" problem be intermittent like this, or IS this really the nature of the American V-Twin? | ||
| Whodom |
Vaneo1, The pinging is related to the engine temperature; when the engine's hotter, it's much more apt to ping. You could retard your timing slightly so that the bike doesn't ping under those conditions. OTOH, you'd be losing a small (probably tiny) amount of power when it's cool outside. Minor occasional pinging like you describe won't really hurt anything. If it doesn't bother you that much, you can live with it. If it does bother you, you can adjust timing per Davo's instructions above. | ||
| Perry |
Just to pile on, my 12s pings like a mother too. I noticed it after the race kit was installed, though I never really rode in hot weather when it was stock. I live/ride at 4500-5500 ft altitude and temps range from typically teens in the winter to 100+ in July/August. My ping starts anytime the bike is warmed up well (15 minute ride) and the outside temperature is 70+ degrees. That means almost all the good riding season. Roll ons below 4000 rpm ALWAYS ping. My bike is basically a dog because I can't use the throttle except for gradually. What good is torque you can't use? What good is a race kit that won't let you turn the throttle? If I use O2-sensor-safe octane booster at triple the recommended rate I can prevent pinging under normal riding conditions, but no aggressive riding or acceleration or the pinging starts. I cannot purchase higher than 91 octane (unleaded) anywhere. Anyone at Buell listening? Have enough of us complained yet? Hope so - we all just want to see the bikes get better. This is a real issue! | ||
| Whodom |
Perry, Pinging should be less of an issue for you because of the altitude. Less atmospheric pressure = less combustion pressure which should = less pinging. I'd say odds are pretty good you have incorrectly adjusted timing. | ||
| Davo |
There is a timing thread on the Big Bad and Dirty Board. We have been wrestling over this issue ever since the cold weather left North America this Spring. There are some guys that are not pinging at all but there is a considerable number of people that are. My issue in the timing thread is more of a technical disparity that I found in the VDO-EFI system vs the VDSTS. It is my opinion that a stock xb12x will ping in hot weather unless you retard the timing, richen the air/fuel ratio, add fuel enhancers or cool the engine down significantly with after market scoops. I am a little disappointed that nobody has agreed with my disparity issue. I have relayed this information to some pretty smart guys but nobody gets it. |
