| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Pretty sure the owner's manual says something about warming the engine a little before pushing it too hard. I simply ride easy for a mile or three. Tolerance? You want ME to speak about tolerance? ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) What Court and Bradley said with clarification that it is in relation to the lateral (side to side) positioning of the caliper with respect to the brake disk. Fewer toleranced parts influencing the lateral position of the brake disk means a much higher quality and tighter toleranced assembly, or one that is much less expensive and prone to problems. Start at the left side of the wheel/disk assembly on a conventional bike you will find something like the following serial tolerance stack-up going from wheel to disk: Lateral position of a conventional disk is affected by the position and/or thickness of a lot of components and machined surfaces including but not limited to all the following: Fork lower inboard face (left side) Spacer (left side) Counterbore bearing seat (left side wheel hub) Bearing outer race (left side) Bearing inner race (left side) Spacer (center) Bearing inner race (right side) Bearing outer race (right side) Counterbore bearing seat (right side wheel hub) Spacer (right side) Fork lower inboard face (right side) Wheel hub faces (left side and right side for dual disks, just applicable side for single disk) Disk carrier(s) hub mounting section (thickness) Disk carrier(s) disk mounting section Disk to carrier connecting hardware Disk(s) thickness. Fork leg caliper(s) mounting bracket(s) Caliper, pads, pistons, more... The ZTL eliminates the dependency of disk location upon the tolerancing of spacers and carriers and such. With the ZTL you just have the wheel and the bearings. Extremely elegant engineering. (Message edited by Blake on July 07, 2006) | ||
| Sflabuell |
Well, a long time ago I used to think poorly about Chevy small blocks. Then I saw a magician put his fingers into the 350 in my Corvette, and wow, a real monster was released. My Buell is so bad to the bone because it doesn't look or sound like anything else. IT really is a hooligan, in it's own right. It's got the right mods, and makes me smile. It wouldn't be the same with any other motor. Oh, and those pesky gaskets. Let's see, blown a few in my days. On my Buell, 3 hours, start to finish, back on the road and rolling. To me, that's my style of technology. Maybe all the motor "haters" ought to go read up what everyone in motorcycling wrote when the Evo was introduced. I can't remember anyone talking poorly of the design. Back then, I rode only Honda, didn't care for the motor, but it sure got rave reviews. I won't argue that a liquid cooled multi with lots of valve area won't out perform a 2 cylinder. How about a 2 stroke? They will flat out smoke 4 strokes (did all through the 70's) and no one is going there. So, the technology is supposed to be in what is right for the application. Erik has repeatedly stated how the motor is ideal for the designed purpose. I prefer to agree. | ||
| Blake |
To borrow from Bradley's excellent illustration, with the ZTL Buell is building the ruler out of only say three pieces instead of twelve for the conventional configuration, plus Buell is only building one ruler instead of two.  | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
well from the unedumacated masses standpoint we allways want it NOW ....but we have seen some nifty improvments over the last few years...we still dont really care what it takes to get there thats ur problem not ours....i guess we will have to be a little tolerant of our american sportbike and just be damn glad we have one period....it does work on many levels and we think thats dandy....all that stuff above is great information...if we werent the uniformed masses we'd prob think ya'll know what ur talking aboot....hope the thread stays alive a while longer we might learn something...maybe buell should swallow up a little company like that highland motor co. and the guys that r tryin to build the bike...think microsoft...eat the competition and use their best ideas take em to market as ur own and everybody thinks ur a genies ass....and we get a well styled water cooled 150 horse american sportbike....thing kinda looks like a gixx 1000 and ducatti got busy one night after drinkin too much....but hey im into that kinda thing...the uninformed masses have spoken...oh and thanx for not tearin me to pieces court.  | ||
| Diablobrian |
Hey M_H, some of us revel in the little details of how it all comes together! I'm sure Buell has their eyes on the future. As I understand it the V-rod motor was originally supposed to be a Buell power plant, but it grew too tall heavy and long to be of any use to Erik and company. Don't worry. I expect big things foe the silver anniversary in 2008! The XB premiered on the 20th. History has a way of repeating itself. I'm looking forward to another extreme machine! | ||
| Midknyte |
Good Lord Bradley . . . did you think up that example? Uh, yeah. Best way I could think of putting it in everyday-laymans terms. I'm now far removed, but I did spend 10 years grunting thru various departments in factory producing aircraft parts. Drilling, grinding, heat treating, de-burring, inspecting, plating, etc. I know nothing about something and something about nothing... | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah... That highland engine seems to be a good one, but I think that Buell has more tricks up their sleeves than highland does. I think the next power plant will be more than any of us are realistically hoping for... If they can get a 150-170HP RR engine through Daytona I don't see why they couldn't take 10% off of it and sell it on the street. I'd buy one and not even get rid of the 12R. That said... an 88" XB engine should be absolutely effing brilliant on the street. That's where I'm headed along with a properly built 1350 for the track. | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
yes i understand that some people dig the details....so do i sometimes....i take the little bit i understand from each little piece and file it away for future reference....then i forget it....its easier to play stupid sometimes then when ya have to u can wail on someone from left field they never see it commin....and dont think for a second i dont love my bike....it stayed in the living room most of the winter so it wouldnt get too cold....i am guilty of sitting on my bike in my living room and making vroom vroom sounds during an especially cold snap for a few days and i touched it every time i walked by her. | ||
| Xbradical |
"Back to the comment above on the GM staying with the small block engine. In case you haven't noticed, it is now one of the best engines in the world." A push rod/rocker motor??? In 1972 Honda produced the CVCC engine which is leaps and bounds ahead of even any of GM's current crop of motors in power & efficiency. | ||
| Xbradical |
"If you go to a sporting event, you should expect to hear the home-team's cheerleaders rooting for them." Yes, and that's exactly why the cheerleaders wear such short skirts. To make the boys root harder! | ||
| M1combat |
"In 1972 Honda produced the CVCC engine which is leaps and bounds ahead of even any of GM's current crop of motors in power & efficiency." What's your point? Ever hear of a DFV? You think a CVCC can pull an RV and a Jeep? Good luck . How many times did that CVCC win Le-Mans? How many race car engineers have ever even thought "Hmmm... Maybe we should take a shot at Le-Mans with a CVCC...". How many 1972 Accords are still on the road? How many 1972 Chevy trucks are still on the road? My buddy who I work with (why heard me LOL) is a Honda nut (drives an excellent little worked over CRX SI) and says you need to pull your head out. | ||
| Thepup |
Comparing a liquid cool V-8 to an air cooled v-twin motorcycle engine is like comparing an apple to a tuna.M-1,Buell got a 150-170 HP engine RR engine through Daytona?That's news to me. | ||
| M1combat |
I said "If they can get" as opposed to "because they already did get"... | ||
| Xbradical |
"What's your point? Ever hear of a DFV? You think a CVCC can pull an RV and a Jeep? Good luck . How many times did that CVCC win Le-Mans? How many race car engineers have ever even thought "Hmmm... Maybe we should take a shot at Le-Mans with a CVCC." Funny how supporters of a niche engine like in the Buell can only see in one direction. Honda has some winning F1 cars, where's GM's? And, make a 350 CI CVCC engine and it will not only pull an RV & Jeep faster farther and better, but it will probably get 20 MPG while doing so. | ||
| Diablobrian |
M1 be sure to keep a relatively mild state of tune on an 88" street XB motor. If you push it too hard it won't last. 110rwhp would be where I'd be aiming with it. Beyond that it gets very hard on the bottom end! | ||
| Xbradical |
Exactly my point. There are no shortage of Jap engines making 50 RWHP more than that with 20% less displacement. That's stock, without having to worry about the bottom end, OR the top end. | ||
| Diablobrian |
displacement alone is not a good measure of a motor. If it were then MotoGP wouldn't give the 4 strokes twice the displacement of the 2 strokes would it? after all they needed almost twice the displacement to compete with the established 2 strokes right? The architecture of the motor is an important factor. The single crank-pin is the weak point of our motors. This is not a new discovery. The displacement argument is getting tired too. It's become a mantra since the XBRR came out. It sounds good on the surface, but the science is not just weak, but non-exsistent. | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
if were talkin motors...one of my favorites is the old mazda rotary..theres a motor that could take a beatin....how about a rotary powered sportbike huh...would that even work....it works on seedoo's dosent it ? . ah what the hell do i know. | ||
| M1combat |
I was thinking I'd shoot for about 120-125 Brian. Temkin conversion and all that too... I'll be sure to talk to the builder to make sure my expectations are in line with reality. Xbradical... But they're wide, complex and water cooled. How much power do they make at 25MPH in first gear? How often do they need valve adjustments (pushrods will be adjustable in about fifteen minutes from the side of the bike with the Buell)? Will they fit into a frame that's as sweet as the XB frame? You're barking up the wrong tree radical... Power is almost useless on my favorite stretch of roads. I'm not looking for peak power. I'm looking for a torque platau (like a 351C 2V). Different strokes my friend... I prefer my old Mustang Mach-1 to a new Honda S2000 (although I could probably be persuaded to trade the Mach for an Exige, but I'd trade the Exige for a well built Pantera or GT-40 any day). You probably won't believe me when I tell you I've passed IL41000's with a mostly stock XB12 on a canyon road. You probably won't believe me when I tell you that I've kept up with late model RX-7's in clover leaf races with my Mach-1 either... I could have passed, but they are one and a half lanes and I was using one and a half lanes... Whatever... Different strokes... | ||
| M1combat |
It you mount it laterally it torques the bike with throttle application and makes the power train difficult to engineer. If you mount it transversely it adds a LOT of stability (AKA roll resistance). They rock in cars though... (Message edited by M1Combat on July 07, 2006) | ||
| Outrider |
There are no shortage of Jap engines making 50 RWHP more than that with 20% less displacement. That's stock, without having to worry about the bottom end, OR the top end. Which is why my next sporting bike will have all the HP and Torque that I want without any known tendencies to self-grenade in stock form. In essence, it will do what I want it to without all the modifications that violate EPA, CARB and perhaps the factory warranty, just to extend it's life expectancy. If Buell or Harley make one, they will keep my business. Other than that, the field is open to all comers. | ||
| Glitch |
Comparing a liquid cool V-8 to an air cooled v-twin motorcycle engine is like comparing an apple to a tuna. I have a list somewhere of all the NASCAR tech that made it into the heads of our bikes. So it's probably more like oranges and tangelos. You probably won't believe me when I tell you I've passed IL41000's with a mostly stock Don't ya just love the excuses! "My tires are going away" "It's a new bike, I'm not used to it yet" "I've got new tires" "It's not been running right this week"...  | ||
| M1combat |
I know... Had a guy tell me his brake rotor was dragging once. I said "really... I figured you were running on three cylinders." I don't think he was too entirely amused . | ||
| Glitch |
There's things I never get tired of. One is hearing all the excuses of why they couldn't keep up, or shake me. Another is them looking and saying something like, "Thats a BUELL?, WOW that's awesome!" The other is all the attention the bike gets whenever we're in a crowd of cookie cutter bikes. It never gets old! | ||
| Anonymous |
Bradley, I agree, that's an awesome explanation of tolerance stack up! You rule! (Literally) Especially if you can keep Court from falling asleep in meetings at his advanced age! | ||
| Ride365 |
Holy moly crap dudes! I've never seen so many post on one thread in my life! hahahaha | ||
| Blake |
"Exactly my point. There are no shortage of Jap engines making 50 RWHP more than that with 20% less displacement. That's stock, without having to worry about the bottom end, OR the top end." The Jap engines also have... Four times as many valves, Four times as many throttle bodies, Twice as many cylinders, A big ugly radiator and all its required plumbing and pumping aparatti, Wildly oversquare rev to the stratosphere configurations, Grossly inferior fuel efficiency, even with full fairings, Catalytic converters, Periodic valve adjustments, A LOT more required periodic maintenance, And they all pretty much look and sound alike, to me anyway. Same old, same old. Nothing really new. The hysterical religion of superior peak HP has been once and for all debunked as the cult that it is. The 2006 Master Bike competition was won by the Aprilia RSV over much higher peak HP Japan Inc competition. The Mille just works better, is a better bike, and spanked the other stock machines despite being down more than 30 RWHP compared to its competition. Aprilia RSV Mille Factory: 121 RWHP Kawasaki ZX-10R: 152 RWHP Better and generally faster bike? The Mille. No pre-production machines, no-factory prepared Supersport racing machines, just right off the showroom floor stock motorcycles. The Aprilia bested all comers, literbikes and 600cc class machines alike. One bike in the hands of a pro-racer achieved a better lap time. It too was Italian, the MV Agusta F4 1000 R. So it is now clearly obvious that peak HP is not the be all end all that some would have us believe. Far from it in fact. That said, Buell engines have been improving steadily since the 1996 S1 was born with its improved performance heads compared to the stock Sporty engine of the S2. What used to make something like 50 RWHP is now putting down close to double that and doing so reliably, efficiently, and without the need for liquid cooling or catalytic converters, or all manner of complexity purely for the persuit of stratospheric revs and peak HP. Have the Japanese engines come as far in the past ten years? Not even close. In ten years, the IL4 600cc bikes have maybe gained around 20% in peak RWHP. One Japanese manufacturer is apparently so bothered by the lackluster state of their engine performance improvement that they have commenced lying about it. Sad. And in their desperate quest for improved performance, now some of their bikes are bursting into flames from what before would have been a routine low-side at the track. I'll take my Buell over any Japanese motorcycle. For me it is a vastly superior motorcycle. | ||
| Blake |
And to be precise, it would not be 20% less displacement, it would be... | ||
| Ride365 |
I love the mean a** sound of a big vtwin roaring down the road! It's why I'm finally getting certified at MMI to work on Harley/Buell bikes... But I'm not sorry to say the Jap bikes are damn well made! Extra valves, throttle bodies, cylinders, and a radiator that you can't really even see don't make them ugly and/or bad bikes at all... Just different! We are Buell riders, and fans of big twins because of their ability to rattle a smile into even the most frustrated and stressed out of bodies, making the end of a hard work day like the beginning of a freshly shaken etch and sketch, with a blank slate to draw dreams on, or tear holes into, whichever peaceful or destructive path you should choose, both are beautiful in their own way! | ||
| M1combat |
Well said 365 . |
