| Author | Message | ||
     Smoke |
which races exactly are you talking about winning? is it national level races in a class that the xbrr was explicitly designed for? the major rub is 1 thing only. did not show, no real explanation why. if it's a money thing, select the venues and publish well in advance so that your current fan base can support the effort. my 2cents. live long and prosper! tim | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: "The hiring of top gun "ringers" was absolutely, totally done by the dealers. I am sorry that your friends don't buy into it. And all the press from Buell and H-D talked about building bikes for private teams. That was the pre-Daytona build-up. If you and your friends don't believe the truth and want to fabricate something different, that's up to you." Jimi: It doesn't seem like much of a stretch when the "private teams" you speak of are HD/Buell dealerships, with their employees in the pits. There is a fine line you guys are drawing here. Shucks, the Chuck Graves Yammy Haul team probably isn't that much in the factory's pocket. Or the Erion Honda team. About all they get is money, and special parts. Their pit guys are not Yammy Haul employees, are they? We are playing with semantics and the ambiguities of corporate law here. Like I said, all of that legal mumbo-jumbo doesn't change public opinion one bit...and believe it or don't, Buells absence at Miller will be noticed. And speculation about what is still wrong with those unreliable Buells will still persist. It is not just my "friends" who will be talking...and it is all so unnecessary. HD has the money, just not the will. This has been fun though, hasn't it. I haven't seem such passion on a thread in a while. Cleans the cob webs out! Thanks to all who have contributed! jimidan | ||
| Blake |
We all agree on one thing, right? | ||
| Anonymous |
Jimidan, You are so, so wrong about the Graves team and the other teams like Erion. They are paid LARGE sums of money by the factories. The H-D/Buell dealers are not. I'll bet 80% of the racers out there have dealer connections...and you say that makes them factory teams?!!!! Too bizarre, I just have to quit this thread. It's sheer lunacy. | ||
| Jscott |
"I just have to quit this thread. It's sheer lunacy." Aw come on Anonymous - since you guys are'nt participating at Miller, the least you can do is participate in this little thread.  | ||
| Soloyosh |
Kevin Erion gets about 2 million/year from American Honda, depending on the classes he's running (DAMHIK). The classes are determined by American Honda. His riders are under contract to American Honda. The bike are built by American Honda. He maintains them and employs a crew. I am sure Graves is much the same. They ARE factory teams. Cheers Brett | ||
| Jscott |
M1 - I was wondering the same thing. How come so many of us thought this was going to be any different this year (i.e. factory effort). So I went digging around in the archives. While the Anon's and the people in the know (i.e. Court) certainly never mentioned the word "factory", it was popping up in every post surrounding their's. Now obviously it was coming from some salivating Buell fans (myself included) and people that were getting over zealous (you know what thats like don't you?  ). Never once did someone in the know slow the momentum down by saying "All shucks guys, you know this isn't really a factory effort, but more along the lines of some dealer teams that may or may not have sufficient funding for a real race effort. But hey its Daytona and WE'RE BACK!!!" The first indication of trouble in paradise was when Richard Cronrath obviously discovered that the FX effort was obviously flawed from the beginning in regards to it's funding. He specifically asked us if we would prefer to see an allout Buell effort at Daytona, and the possibility of a hit or miss season thereafter. Or if we would prefer a smaller scale Buell effort that would be there until the end. He quickly signed off after that and not much thought was payed to him. So in some little way, I feel we were mislead. I'm sure I did read to much into it though, and should have known better. Should'nt we be talking about the 07 model release of the water-cooled world beater SuperBike. No, we've been there done that also.  | ||
| Blake |
I don't know how you got misled, I've known from the start that the teams were privateers, not factory. It was stated in the very first press release and it was indeed stated repeatedly by those in the know here. I'm not much in the know at all, but I'm pretty sure that I stated exactly that on multiple occasions. | ||
| Jscott |
I think Smoke has a stellar idea, that may help... "select the venues and publish well in advance so that your current fan base can support the effort" I would like to go to one of the MidOhio venues this year, but would prefer to know in advance if Buell will be there. | ||
| Imonabuss |
That's not a bad idea, Js, but perhaps the dealers are already doing that? I'll have to check on their websites. I think the factory does a press release when a dealer team tells them they are going to be running, because I've seen something like that on RRW. But if the dealers only tell Buell at the last moment, it doesn't give enough time to plan on going to the races. Maybe Blake could set up something here on Badweb and encourage dealers to post their racing plans? Or Buell's web site could have a place for the dealers to do this? | ||
| Jscott |
Actually it was Smoke's idea, but I think it would be a great way to keep up the excitement level that seems to have dropped off after all the DNS'. | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: "Jimidan, You are so, so wrong about the Graves team and the other teams like Erion. They are paid LARGE sums of money by the factories. The H-D/Buell dealers are not. I'll bet 80% of the racers out there have dealer connections...and you say that makes them factory teams?!!!! Too bizarre, I just have to quit this thread. It's sheer lunacy." Lunacy is a relative term...and sheer (funny you should mention that) is the force that continues to plague my front isolator, ripping the new one apart 400 miles into my last trip to WV. Since you guys don't have much to do lately  since you obviously aren't going racing much these days with no money, why don't you design us tube framers a new front isolator? Just thought I'd ask...I don't get to talk to Erik much these days, or I'd ask him directly. In my previous post, I said that Yammy Haul and Hondaka were paid large sums of money, and I even added that they got special race parts. What I was unclear about was whether their pits staffs were paid by the factory or dealerships, or by Chuck Graves own racing company, and it was in the form of an interrogatory. Do these pit mechanics work just for the race team or do they go back to a dealership and work on customer's bikes when not at the races? Why is that such a lunatic question? I think from talking to folks at the races that the HD dealership's staff and mechanics man the pits, with some full factory boys (like yourself) pitched into the fray to hold things together. So, all of the pit crews are highly paid HD employees either at the dealership or full on factory level, right? I assume they are "highly" paid by how much they charge per hour to work on our bikes, and I assume that you make a pretty good salary too, right? So, given all of that, what does this mean? *Yammy Haul and Hondaka treat there factory paid teams better than HD pays its factory paid teams...lots better. *Yammy Haul and Hondaka have more of a commitment to its racing teams than HD...much more. *Yammy Haul and Hondaka win races in FX because of this commitment...all of them. I agree that all of these things are true. The question is "Why?" Oh, and "factory team" is a relative term too, that as far as I know of has never been defined. It is all a matter of degrees and commitment. Agreed? And speaking of lunacy, how crazy is it for HD to spend a million plus bucks on its admittedly full on factory flat-track racing team of Rich King, for him to ride a freakin' Honda 450? That is going to sell a lot of Harleys on Monday! NOT! And they say they don't have enough money to give to a couple of Buell dealerships so they can at least show up at the FX races and sort their bikes if nothing else? Now that is f**kin' crazy. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on June 18, 2006) (Message edited by jimidan on June 18, 2006) (Message edited by jimidan on June 18, 2006) | ||
| Jetbuilder |
The Bottom line IMHO is HD has no intention of competing in road racing at any level and if funding for the XBRR program is already out of money that just proves it. I think that Buell has the ability to build and field a reliable and effective bike but as long as HD has anything to say about it it will never happen. I see it at our local dealer level now ,HD will rant and rave about how good the Pro Stock harley is doing or how fast the VRod drag bike is, but if you tell them that the Buell badged pro stock bikes are killing them or if you tell them we have more buells winning races than harleys they get pissed. I guess I am just getting a little dicouraged as a Buell fan at being told again that an American company is going to make a serious effort to compete on the world road racing stage and then they don`t even show up for the race. Red | ||
| Jimidan |
Jetbuilder sez: "but if you tell them that the Buell badged pro stock bikes are killing them or if you tell them we have more buells winning races than harleys they get pissed." Badges?...badges"...have you seen the size of them badges on those dragster "Buells"...they are a whole 3 INCHES long. You can almost read them from 5 feet away...almost. Impressive! Looks like a Ford sticker. But I agree with Blake though, REAL BUELLS ROCK jimidan} | ||
| José_quiñones |
Here's all the casual observer or fan at the track sees: The Track/TV anouncers call them 'Buells', the TV labels them as 'Buells', they look like they have 'Buell' front fairings and the frames 'look' like the XB frames. If you add up all the 7 second passes that a 'Buell' is on the TV during a NHRA drag race, it blows the amount of Roadracing Buells out of the water in terms of TV exposure. In terms of bang for the buck, in terms of support dollars (near zero) to exposure and 'results' the NHRA Drag Racing Buells are hard to beat. HD does a lot of market research, I wonder if they have asked new Buell owners which they are more aware of, NHRA 'Buells' or AMA FX 'Buells'. They might be surprised by the answer. If I was a Buell dealer with an AMA event or an NHRA event nearby, my guess is that I would generate more 'foot traffic' later by taking the bikes to display to the Drag Race. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on June 18, 2006) | ||
| José_quiñones |
I'm sure it's a sore subject in the HD corporate offices. Tomorrow, HD and Suzuki will have press releases on their websites about the results from this past weekend. Buell will not be allowed to do the same, due to HD politics. It has nothing to do with the sticker on the airbox, it's the engine in the bike, from that other VTwin engine builder based in Wisconsin. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on June 18, 2006) | ||
| José_quiñones |
Enough drag racing, continue with your fascinating road racing discussion.... | ||
| Mutation_racer |
come to a CCS ASRA weekend and you will see what buell is all about on real level, everyday guys with jobs riding there pretty much stock buell with just a few mods winning races not just showing up . hay i raced daytona this year with a XB!@R with a chain drive and muffle and one sweat paint job and walk away with a first and two seconds not bad for a guy who has to work mon to fri. BUELLS ROCK and all you old wash ladys can suck a nut GO BUELL. | ||
| M1combat |
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| Smoke |
i really applaud the weekend racers who run what they brung. lots of dedication and sacrifice to race every venue available. the xbrr was overly hyped and designed exactly to be an AMA FX racer with a possible 3 on the box at Daytona 2006 finish and when no xbrr finished the race, no xbrr's were delivered. now it's a limited appearance FX machine and not very well publicized at which venues it will make an appearance. Buell fans would like to attend AMA races where buells are racing. at the same time the AMA would like to drag a large portion of the H-D fanbase(and their money) to the AMA races. hard to do that at the moment. mutation, i appreciate your youthful enthusiasm, but there 's no nut sucking going on here. good luck at the races, tim | ||
| Mutation_racer |
thanks , i just cant take all the bashing from buellers , and i wish i was a youth . age 35 | ||
| Trojan |
I think this whole argument about whether the XB-RR is a factory or privateeer entry is a matter of perception. We know the explanation from the factory on the situation, but the average race fan does not, so when he sees a Buell factory truck delivery 4 bikes (all painted in the same livery) to the circuit and take them away again afterwards of course they think it is a factory effort. This perception isn't helped by sharing the same H-D offshoot sponsors with just a few small dealer stickers to identify the respective teams. The sooner that the teams paint the bikes in their own colours the better. That way people will associate them as dealer teams and not a factory team. 99% of race watchers haven't a clue about Buell or it's products, and a large percentage of them don't care either. All they will see is what appears to be a large corporate effort and a final results sheet. I am 150% behind the XB-RR effort and the dealer teams that run them. I also know the effort that goes into running a race team so please don't think that I am belittling or slagging off the programme. | ||
| M1combat |
I hear you Matt... really. I even agree that the public perception is probably that the teams are a factory effort. It just doesn't matter to me ATM. It's year one. They'll learn soon enough. | ||
| Soloyosh |
I truly hope you're right. Cheers Brett | ||
| M1combat |
Then go to some other forum and TELL THEM every time they make a comment that's not correct.... | ||
| Soloyosh |
Believe me, I've done it til I'm blue in the face. If you only knew... | ||
| Smoke |
mutation, 35 is younger than my 53 which is younger than other members of the forum. most of us just want to see the xbrr in the hunt. ride safe, tim | ||
| Imonabuss |
Trojan, The "small dealer stickers" were full lettering down the sides of the bike on the Daytona photos I saw. And it is my understanding that all 50 XBRRs are going to arrive at the dealers painted in the same color scheme. So why in the heck does that make them factory bikes? Maybe all bikes, Honda CBR600s, CRF450s etc. that aren't re-painted in some other color from that in which they were purchased are factory bikes then? If I had only known, and not re-painted my race bikes back in the day! I coulda been a factory rider too! | ||
| Trojan |
I think you have missed my point Imonabuss. I was talking about public perception, not from Buell enthusiasts but from Joe Public, Mr Hondakawazukha owner. If a 'privateer dealer' team turned up at Daytona with a CBR600 painted just like DuHamels then the perception amongst the crowd would probably be that it was connected in some way to his team, otherwise why do we all bother having our own team livery at all? A very large proportion of racegoers and TV audience have no idea of the politics and behind the scenes moves that go on in motorsport, so don't expect them to know the difference between identical looking bikes. It is not enough to stick a dealer sticker on the side of identical bikes and have the audience believe that they are not the same team. Sharing the same garage and transporters probably doesn't help in that respect either. Take a look at Moto GP if you don't understand what I'm talking about. ALL of the Honda bikes are provided by HRC. Only Hayden and Pedrosa's are 'works' bikes though and it is easy to tell the various teams apart. Should they all be painted in Honda colours with just a sticker down the side? The XB-RR should be sold in plain white (or nice 'testing colour' plain black carbon) for each team to build it's own identity. With safety concerns as they are now, spectators are being moved further and further away from the edge of the circuits, to the extent that reading a dealer sticker becomes an impossibility. Timekeeping is now taken care of by electronic transponder, so race numbers are also getting smaller and harder to read from trackside. The only way to tell similar bikes apart at times is by their respective liveries. What will happen when all 50 of the XBRR's are completed and racing? Will they all be the same colours? I for one certainly hope not. Lastly, the word 'Privateer' is used an awful lot in these posts and is open to a huge amount of interpretation. In the UK a privateer is normally the guy who turns up in the back of his van or pickup, having worked all week to afford his racing and spannered his own bike. This obviously has degrees but in general that is true. A dealer supported or semi works team would not normally be termed a privateer effort. It is only a word but it makes a big difference. | ||
| Imonabuss |
The concept of "liveries" is not alive and well in the US, which is fine by me. Most folks do run their bikes in the paint scheme delivered by the factory because it costs more to get custom paint done. I guess it's different from England, perhaps because of the legacy of knoghts riding for certain nobility's colors. Here in the US this is not the case, as you see most club racers and many privateer AMA guys with stock paint jobs. In motocross at the top pro level it is also this way. Kawasakis are green, Suzuki and Yamaha vacillate back and forth between yellow and blue, Honda is always red, and KTM and H-D both run orange. So the fact that the bikes had the same colors is not at all a surprise here. Some folks re-paint, but most save the money for other more crucial things, like travel between races which is much more expensive than in Europe. |
