| Author | Message | ||
     Soloyosh |
Anonymous sez: "Soloyosh, In this type of racing it's not about selling the product on Monday. It's about getting brand name awareness. Drag racing sells lots and lots of product. The people who put their names on these cars and bikes are not stupid." Brand Name awareness... for who? The way the NHRA rules are you could peel the Buell sticker off the tank, leave everything else the same, and call it the Trim-Tex Muzzy's Hodaka. It's like when John Force switches bodies on his funny car, does anyone care? Please don't think I am bashing Buell. I want them to be successful. But the XBRR has become really frustrating to me. It's not even because they aren't winning. It just seems that they've aimed low with the bike ("best of the privateers") for whatever the reason, and yet they put a MotoGP pilot and a Canadian Superbike Champion in the saddle. Do these guy's want to be the best of the privateers? It just seems like VR1000 deja vu all over again. I REALLY HOPE I AM WRONG. Cheers Brett | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: "Soloyosh, In this type of racing it's not about selling the product on Monday. It's about getting brand name awareness. Drag racing sells lots and lots of product. The people who put their names on these cars and bikes are not stupid." Drag racing may very well sell lot and lots of products (like drywall products, fer' instance...those folks are NOT stupid), but its fans are not in the right demographic for Buells, or any other sportbike for that matter. You might as well try and sell Hillary Clinton to Ku Klux Klan members.  Well, I took another look at the drag bike above and as far as I could tell from a very clear photograph taken from ~12 feet away, they bike is a "Trim-Tex Drywall Products - Muzzys" brand. Of course, with the intended audience that means a lot more than the Buell brand (as signified by the tiny 3" long oval sticker which looks more like a Ford to those folks who are hundreds of feet away. Besides, most of them folks have still never heard of a Buell, because their Harley store doesn't even sell Buells...by choice. Hey, I was in West By-God Virginia the other week while on my way to Summit Point, and at a gas station this man asked me what kind of gas mileage my S2 was getting. I told him and he followed up with, "Well, how does that compare to a Harley Davidson?" I said it IS a Harley Davidson...to which he replied Nooooo... Duhhh, the guy didn't even know what a Buell was and he said he owned a Harley. This is not uncommon and has happend many times before. Can you tell I am also pissed at HD for not promoting Buells? If Buell corporate thinks that having that little sticker on the 12 foot long dragster bike is going to sell any more XBs, then they are barking up the wrong tree. Anony, next time you see him, ask Erik if HE thinks that having that little sticker on the dragster is going to sell any more XBs, and get back with us. thanks, Jimidan | ||
| Soloyosh |
M1 says: "I still say that someone needs to sign up a good sponsor for a Buell team..." Truer words... Muzzy's?  | ||
| Jimidan |
M1combat sez: ""Buell could take all of that contingency money (and I would personally be sorry to see that happen, as I like the venue) that they spend on CCS/ASRA, and spend it on one FX team w/ McWilliams and get a lot more promotional bang for the buck. Doesn't that make sense? " No... It doesn't. It would have that effect for sure, but then the privateers are screwed. I still say that someone needs to sign up a good sponsor for a Buell team..." Of course, the privateers would be screwed...that wasn't my point at all. The question was not what would be best for the privateers in the virtually invisible arena of club racing, but rather what would give Buell the best bang for their buck in promotional advertising? Plus, I am not advocating that Buell do this, more for selfish reasons than anything else, since I go to CCS/ASRA races more than I do FX. But it would be more beneficial for the stockholders for Buell to invest its limited funds in something that would give it more return on its dollar. Right now, they are getting close to zilch return by investing in invisible club racing and putting tiny stickers on 12' long drag bikes. That is what I was asking about making sense, which you agreed that it would. I don't want to see the privateers screwed any more than the next guy, but the money is GONE. Repeat, the money is GONE. I hope Buell signs up a good sponsor too, but I don't see that it is very likely unless the sponsors can see that they will get a return on their investment. As has been said before, "...these folks aren't stupid." If HD MoCo would invest a little in this initial effort, it could pay big dividends in the future, and the other sponsors would come. And as McWilliams said, it is up to Erik to make that case to Harley corporate.  Buell would gladly accept a check from Trim-Tex, but would Trim-Tex want to sponsor a real Buell...I think not. jimidan | ||
| M1combat |
Well... I've said my peice... I'm outta here. Keep watching. You're being impatient. You shouldn't come here and tell me what everyone else is saying. I couldn't care less. You might do well to go there and speak about Buells. Be informative. Answer questions. If you don't care about that... Then just go about your business. You don't see what I see. I don't see what you see. The Money's Gone!!!! Oh my... what are we to do??? Bah... It's the beginning of the '07 MY... They'll have a chunk of cash to play with soon enough. Sheep... You know... It's really funny that you think that Buell needs Willies hard on for racing to actually go racing. You still don't seem to understand the concept of privateer racing. The bike seems to be pretty stable at this point (barring stuff that can go wrong with any bike). There isn't a factory team... So they got a chunk of cash from HD to kick things off a little... So what. The 600's don't have a ton of head room left. They'll keep getting faster every year for sure, but the RR isn't at it's limit either... | ||
| Davegess |
"I still say that someone needs to sign up a good sponsor for a Buell team" IF ONE OF YOU GUYS CAN MAKE THAT HAPPEN CALL ERIK HE WILL TAKE THAT CALL!!! don't think that trememdous efforts have not been made in that direction. "Of course, the privateers would be screwed...that wasn't my point at all. The question was not what would be best for the privateers in the virtually invisible arena of club racing, but rather what would give Buell the best bang for their buck in promotional advertising? " I don't think that this effort is aobut advertising the brand by winning the biggest races, I think it is about making the Buell the bike of choice for private racers. Think about it, if Buell is making up a large share of the grids in all the classes they are legal for they will be creating a buzz among racers and race fans. Buell will make money on everyone of these bikes they sell, they will sell parts, etc. Think this is a dumb idea? Let's name some brands that operated that way at the beginning, Prosche, Lotus, Ferrari, Ducati. Bugatti. You may have heard about a few of these. All these guys made race vehicles you could buy and with the exception of Ferrari did not even run anything like a factory team in the early days. | ||
| Jscott |
Amsoil does a lot of racing sponsorship. Think they would be willing to look at Buell? This would be a cool sponsor as well http://www.americanapparel.net/ - they proudly sell American made clothes. | ||
| Soloyosh |
M1 sez: "Think about it, if Buell is making up a large share of the grids in all the classes they are legal for they will be creating a buzz among racers and race fans. Buell will make money on everyone of these bikes they sell, they will sell parts, etc. " But theyre only building 50 XB-RRs. Even if all 50 showed up at Daytona, it's who's on the box that matters. M1 sez: "Think this is a dumb idea? Let's name some brands that operated that way at the beginning, Prosche, Lotus, Ferrari, Ducati. Bugatti. You may have heard about a few of these. All these guys made race vehicles you could buy and with the exception of Ferrari did not even run anything like a factory team in the early days." Ferracci was a privateer? Coulda fooled me. Cheers Brett | ||
| Jimidan |
M1 sez: "Keep watching. You're being impatient. You shouldn't come here and tell me what everyone else is saying. I couldn't care less." Jimi: "There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, especially when we are just giving our opinions anyway...for fun, no less! But my point isn't to come on here and tell you (it isn't all about you) what everyone else is saying, although I suspect you CARE a lot more about folks trashing your brand of choice than you say you do. My point is that hopefully, someone who has a vested interest in all of this will read what we are saying here and it will strike a chord...and they will DO something. And besides, those folks that are putting down Buells are poisoning the well for potential buyers, and whether you care about this personally is of little consequence...corporate Buell cares for sure. M1 cont.: "Sheep..." Jimi: Who are you calling a "sheep"?  I am not a sheep, and that is bordering on a personal attack. You can go after my ideas, but do NOT go after me personally. And I will do the same for you, or anybody else, for that matter. Sheep...really! I have been called a trouble-maker and an agitator, but never a sheep. A former wife of mine once commented that they were going to put the following on my headstone: "He was not a sheep!" For the record, I don't even like mutton. M1 cont: "You know... It's really funny that you think that Buell needs Willies hard on for racing to actually go racing. You still don't seem to understand the concept of privateer racing." Jimi: I understand privateer racing just fine, thank you. If I wasn't so damned old, I would no doubt be in CCS racing myself. I probably go to a lot more privateer racing than you or most other non-paid folks on here, I would bet, but that isn't the point. As Soloyosh has stated clearly, Buell's initial promotion of this bike at the freakin' Daytona 200 is what got everybody's attention to the factory effort that they were making with MotoGP "star" Jeremey McWilliams, Canadian Superbike Champion Steve Crevier, etc. You and others can poo-poo this all you want by calling it a privateer effort, but everybody who was there and/or has read any of the accounts in the media knows better. Now there is no money after just a few races because there were obvious disappointments in the HD front office. It is almost like they are trying to make Buell look bad, and I am not convinced that they aren't. It is my brand of choice too, and I calls 'em likes I sees 'em. I think this bike has a great future in CCS/ASRA racing too, in a less modified (read cheaper) form, with privateer racers on board. More power to the privateers. I will be there rooting for them too. jimidan He is NOT a sheep! | ||
| Jscott |
Its hard to be a middle of the road realist. One side will call you a "sheep" ,the other will call you a "kool-aid drinking fan-boi". This is the same conversation we had last year. Last year a Cycle World spread and then a no show. This year an all-out Daytona extravaganza and now no-shows. What gives? At least with the VR1000 effort they showed up at all the races. | ||
| Jimidan |
Davegess sez: "I don't think that this effort is aobut advertising the brand by winning the biggest races, I think it is about making the Buell the bike of choice for private racers." Jimi: I disagree and offer the following modest rebuttal. I really don't know why Buell decided to make this bike and present with all of the fan-fair it did, if it was just about trying to make a good bike for privateers. I cannot imagine that a company the size of Buell, that is a subsidiary of THE HD MoCo, would not have an advertising angle involved with the way they presented the bike from the onset. Contrary to some folks belief, Buell is not making the XBRR out of the goodness of its corporate heart so that privateers can have a good American bike to go racing with. I am not saying that Buell corporate do not have their hearts in this project, because I believe they do...as all of the Anonies can attest. But, I wonder just how many of Erik's first born sons he would have given (or pacts with the Devil) to have won Daytona!  jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on June 16, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
I didn't intend to call you a sheep as such... I was making a point with exasperation... Sheep... Talking about the guys that just keep bashing on Buells and can't see the forrest. That doesn't seem to be you exactly. You seem to be stating your opinion. That's great. You seem to be looking at it from the wrong direction (the direction that the majority of "non-Buellisti" come from actually). A different direction I guess would be a better way to put it. | ||
| Anonymous |
Hey, Jimi. The fact is it was a privateer effort at Daytona. If Buell ever does a factory effort, you will know. Buell selected four dealers who we knew loved racing and had experience, and we picked them geographically split up so there would be some nationalistic pride among the fans. We then drummed up sponsorship to get them to a couple of test sessions like a normal dealer would do at ASRA races, and for Daytona. We also were there to support them. Look at the pictures from Daytona of the teams and you will see this is true. A few Buell guys, and a ton of folks from germany, Canada, etc. If you think we are aiming low in getting a bike out so that privateer racers on Buells can beat privateers on Kawasakis, then I guess we did aim low. That is exactly what we wanted to do. If you don't like the way we are managing the business, that is your right, but don't claim your thoughts are ours. We did the project to get excitement about the brand, and to get dealers engaged in roadracing so they would do a better job selling Buell street bikes. The only disappointment I have is that it took us so long to finally get the bikes de-bugged and all the parts in to ship them to dealers. By mid summer, the bikes will be winning more races, and by next season you will see them everywhere. It is not a factory trackside effort. I'm sure tha a***s at Speedzilla will tell you that's not true, but that's the same group of twits one of whom told you Erik designed the VR chassis and that's why the VR wasn't successful!! And, JSCott, don't you compare this to the VR, since you don't know what you are talking about. The VR program started in late February 1987. The leadership team was told the VR would be at Daytona in 1989. Figure out for yourself when it actually started racing. And then look at it's results as a factory effort that cost tens and tens of millions. Racing is not easy! What really pisses me off as an ex-racer is how people sit on the sidelines and throw barbs at those who are out doing it. | ||
| Jscott |
"Racing is not easy! What really pisses me off as an ex-racer is how people sit on the sidelines and throw barbs at those who are out doing it." The problem is is that they(you) are not doing it. Whatever the reason is, or whoever is to blame (HD's financial backing, take your pick). Showing up is half the battle. You won't hear me throwing barbs at losses, DNF's, crashes, etc. I only get ancy at DNS'. "Hey, Jimi. The fact is it was a privateer effort at Daytona. If Buell ever does a factory effort, you will know." Please do let us know (I kinda thought it was going to be this year), because the same'ol, same'ol gets kind of frustrating. (Message edited by JScott on June 16, 2006) | ||
| Soloyosh |
Anonymous sez: "If you think we are aiming low in getting a bike out so that privateer racers on Buells can beat privateers on Kawasakis, then I guess we did aim low. That is exactly what we wanted to do." As long as you're clear on your goals. It just seems weird to me to enter a series with the goal of supplying the best privateer bikes. Especially a national series with media coverage. It seems with that type of attention you'd be looking to get on the box. I wish the XB-RR all the success in the world. I'll be waiting for that factory effort. Cheers Brett | ||
| Blake |
And in the mean time, you'll probably be watching the privateers too, no? I will. I gotta make plans for Laguna Seca! | ||
| M1combat |
The factories don't ••••••• matter. I see the top privateer effort in any given race being as good as a win... Unless it's a factory effort... Then they should be on the box regularly. Jscott... I never saw this as a factory effort. Sounds like your OWN expectations were too high. I suppose that's why I see the thing as doing well and you think they suck. "YOU are not doing it" - "Whatever the reason" - "Whoever is to blame" - "Please do let us know (I kinda thought it was going to be this year), because the same'ol, same'ol gets kind of frustrating. " WTF? Align your expectations to something that the company is trying to deliver and you'll be much less frustrated. I suppose you figured that they were going to jump to WSBK next year right? I suppose your outlook towards Buell will take a turn for the worse if they don't then... That's not productive. I'm not trying to piss you off but you seem to have had different expectations than the guys that are putting their blood, sweat and tears into it had... What makes it fair for you to then come here and bitch about YOUR expectations not being met? •••• your expectations. Let it "be". The RR is one HELL of a race bike in it's class. It's not developed. It will be. Please try to see that and encourage the right people to stick with it. Right now you're just complaining that your ***** hurts... So what. And yeah... Tell anyone else that doesn't see the forrest to go fly a kite too. They will see it in good time. It's too early right now. | ||
| Soloyosh |
Unfortunately I dont travel to the races as much as I would like. I'll catch them on Speed. Though there isn't much privateer coverage there, unless they're flippin off the camera. Cheers Brett | ||
| Jscott |
M1 - try not to spend so much time putting words and thoughts into other peoples posts. Your tone sounds much more frustrated than anyone elses here. I guess that's to be expected from someone with "combat" in his screen name. Plus I though you were signing off (maybe to go hassle Al some more about his shootout). Try cutting back on the caffeine. Maybe my expectations were set to high, I don't know. I do remember that when the news was leaked about the XBRR - and that it was being built to the exact spirit of the AMA FX rule book - I figured they were serious about AMA competition. I guess I was wrong. I'll be rooting for them when they do choose to race.  (Message edited by JScott on June 16, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
Blake does that mean that they will be racing at Laguna Seca? Do you know if they will be at either of the Mid-Ohio dates? | ||
| M1combat |
That's why I was making statements like "seems to me" and "you seem to" etc... I wasn't trying to put words or meanings into your text other than what I interpreted them to mean... It's good that you'll be rooting for Buell. I AM frustrated. I assure you. Not about anyones opinion in particular, but because I see the "RR" effort a certain way. It looks good to me. Then someone decides that because it hasn't yet met their expectations that they should nit pick stuff. Racing is typically a long term endeavor. There are many ways for a company that produces raceable vehicles to go about racing. Buell chose the way that best supports the privateer IMO and also IMO, that's the best way to do it. I'm quite passionate about racing. I can certainly get pretty riled up about the subject. | ||
| Jscott |
Enough said. I'm quite passionate about racing as well. GO BUELL!!! (Message edited by JScott on June 16, 2006) | ||
| Hattori_hanzo |
They have to show up first..no Buells at Miller this weekend. Anyone no why? | ||
| Jscott |
Hattori, unfortunately information does'nt seem to flow to well from the Buell race camps, but the prevailing theory is that funds have run out. They are probably on a hit or miss schedule for the remaining season. | ||
| Blake |
I dunno JS, but I sure hope they show at Laguna Seca. | ||
| Jscott |
Blake, even if they don't - MotoCzysz is working on a couple more bikes that supposed to be on display there. http://www.motoczysz.com/main.php?area=news_view&art_id=63&p_id=179&return_path= home Plus I'm sure MotoGP will make up for it.  | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: "Hey, Jimi. The fact is it was a privateer effort at Daytona. If Buell ever does a factory effort, you will know. Buell selected four dealers who we knew loved racing and had experience, and we picked them geographically split up so there would be some nationalistic pride among the fans. We then drummed up sponsorship to get them to a couple of test sessions like a normal dealer would do at ASRA races, and for Daytona. We also were there to support them. Look at the pictures from Daytona of the teams and you will see this is true. A few Buell guys, and a ton of folks from germany, Canada, etc. If you think we are aiming low in getting a bike out so that privateer racers on Buells can beat privateers on Kawasakis, then I guess we did aim low. That is exactly what we wanted to do. If you don't like the way we are managing the business, that is your right, but don't claim your thoughts are ours." Jimi: How will we know? My thoughts are not the yours, or theirs, or its...geez, what ever entity "ours" represents. My perceptions are not even totally mine, but represent some of those who have been vocal on the web and in the media. That public perception is still there in many cases as folks beg the question at each DNS race event, "Where the heck is Buell?". The public perception is that there is something wrong with those unreliable Buells or they would be here. I am not making this up. As far as the public perception that the XBRR was a factory effort, I guess it was all that orchestration Buell and HD did before Daytona, that you were talking about, that did everybody in...except M1combat. He seems to be absolutely clear on the company line, which seems to have morphed downward in expectations since Daytona. It doesn't seem like McWilliams and Crevier will be major players anymore, but hey, who knows on this side of the fence. Public perception is important though, and should not be left to speculation. Hiring the top gun "ringers" as they have been called, McWilliams and Crevier, also made it seem like it was a factory effort to the uninformed masses, rather than just "getting a bike out so that privateer racers on Buells can beat privateers on Kawasakis". I doubt that many race fans consider McWilliams and Crevier as privateers, regardless of what they are riding...especially McWilliams. He could be on a John Deere and it would seem like a factory effort to the unwashed masses. The fact is, you are right, I don't like the way HD is managing its racing business, as it is hurting my brand of choice. I would like to buy another Buell someday and Erik can't make it if he isn't in business. Also, I need a bike to root for at the races I attend and at home on SPEED. I would also like to attend an FX race that my buddies weren't ribbing me about the Buell. Is that too much to ask? Is it aiming too high? The similarities between the way Harley runs its racing, and the Buell company for that matter, and the way the Democratic Party runs its national elections is astoundingly similar. One has to scratch his head and ask, "Are they trying to lose?" (fans and customers in HD's case). But hey, I am just a paying customer who is on first name basis with everybody who works at Man-O'-War Harley Davidson Buell in Lexington, KY, so what do I know? And what does it matter anyway? Jimidan | ||
| Anonymous |
The hiring of top gun "ringers" was absolutely, totally done by the dealers. I am sorry that your friends don't buy into it. And all the press from Buell and H-D talked about building bikes for private teams. That was the pre-Daytona build-up. If you and your friends don't believe the truth and want to fabricate something different, that's up to you. Whether McWilliams and Crevier and Rico and Mike C. ride again is up to the dealers, who are looking for sponsors. But other riders will show up on the bikes as more get out, and they will win races. | ||
| Soloyosh |
Anonymous sez: "But other riders will show up on the bikes as more get out, and they will win races." I don't want to sound like a jerk, I just want to be clear. You are talking about AMA FX right? Cheers and a happy Father's day to all you dads out there. Brett | ||
| M1combat |
Maybe I just read more... I specifically remember reading somewhere (before Daytona) that just after the dealer meeting where the RR was revealed that Warrs called Erik up after Erik outlined what he would like to see at Daytona and said "We've got Jeremy McWilliams". From what I hear Erik's jaw just about hit the floor... I don't remember ever hearing from Buell that Daytona was a "factory" effort. Of course the damn factory was "there"... It was freaking Daytona. I'd bet that the ratio of people from Buell to people from the dealer teams was at least four or five to one. There was some support for sure but compare what Buell had going to what the other manufacturers had going... I think I remember seeing six or eight bikes that were blue with a number 1 plate on them... I think there were only five bikes total in the Buell garage. Anyway... Don't let the media run your life Jim. Look at all of the data and make your own decisions please. If your friends give you trouble about Buell... Just smile and tell them to keep watching. That's wise advice IMO. "Where the heck is Buell?" That must be another difference between me and a lot of other people... When an XBRR doesn't show up I think "I wish Warrs had made it over here with McWilliams..." Buell already delivered the bikes... That's what they said they would do. They even put (are putting) a good deal of effort into making them work well. Id still bet (because it's a VERY safe one) that the latest crop of IL4 600 FX bikes have had 10X the testing and development done with them compared to the "RR". I know that doesn't sound good, but look at the speed of the "RR". They seem to have spent the time they HAVE had very efficiently. "The public perception is that there is something wrong with those unreliable Buells or they would be here. I am not making this up. " Of course you aren't... but that doesn't mean that what they're thinking is rational. Patience grass-hopper  . Keep watching. It looked like a factory effort??? WTF??? I knew I should have snapped that pic of an XBRR in the back of some random black/brown pickup truck... Buell had I think two trailers there (and I don't mean trailers owned by Buell as such). You should have seen all the red ones... Sheesh... (Message edited by M1Combat on June 16, 2006) |
