| Author | Message | ||
     Whodom |
Steve Crevier posted 11th fastest in Friday practice: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Jun/sp4/060602c.htm | ||
| Jscott |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25942 Since Hale is hurt, is Estok riding in place of Hale? I believe he has ridden for Cronrath in the past. Where is Hals? What happened to Ciccotto? | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
For reference, in 2004 Steve Crevier raced a GSXR600 in FX at Road America. He qualified 3rd with a time of 2:21.920 (3.1 seconds off pole) and then finished 5th in the race with a best lap time of 2:21.585 (2.3 seconds off the fastest lap of the race). As in all 2004 FX races, the bikes dominating the class that weekend were the factory Hondas of Duhamel and Zemke. So that gives us a pretty good idea of what Steve can do in FX at Road America: Given a decent non-factory bike he is a good enough rider to be at or near the front of the non-factory bikes, a couple seconds a lap behind the factory guys. Today in practice he was 11th fastest with a best lap time of 2:23.914 (5.0 seconds off the fastest lap of the session). Will the XB-RR be good enough to let him get results similar to what he got on that GSXR600? The next two days will tell. | ||
| M1combat |
Or has he had enough time to develop the setup to the degree that he had on the 600? | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Thanks M1 -- you just won me a beer! (I made a little side bet that the very next post after mine would be you making a pre-emptive excuse for Steve and the XB-RR.)  | ||
| M1combat |
No problem bro  . That said... It's a valid statement yes? I mean really. Ummm... What was I excusing exactly? I'm not expecting a win or anything. I'm only saying that a good setup takes time. You got two beers now? (Message edited by M1Combat on June 02, 2006) | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Well, given that we don't have any information on how much setup time Crevier had on that GSXR in 2004 it's impossible to make a valid comparison on that count, eh? For all we know he might not have even thrown a leg over that bike until the first practice session. But this definitely isn't the first time he has ridden the XB-RR - he rode it in practice and qualifying at the ASRA Daytona weekend to get ready for Daytona, then rode it at the AMA Daytona weekend. So even though he has ridden the XB-RR at least a few times before and we don't know if he ever rode that GSXR before the 2004 Road America round, you pre-emptively laid the foundation for the eventual excuse if (when?) he fails to run near the front this weekend - must be the lack of setup time. There's always an excuse for this bike, isn't there. Bring in a world class ringer and he barely manages to run in the top 10? Must be because he didn't know the track(s). Put the bike under a local with excellent track knowledge at Infineon and he runs closer the back than the front? Must be because he's a big guy and the bike wasn't set up for someone his size. And my all-time favorite - the official press release from Buell stating that the failures at Daytona were due to a poorly manufactured Japanese part. Not only a feeble excuse, but also pandering to the xenophobes. Fabulous twofer! | ||
| M1combat |
You're too much my friend... They haven't raced yet and I'm a firm believer in the fact that there are no excuses in racing. You win or you lose. As far as qualifying... Setup is pretty important... I think you read too much into my statement due to the fact that you wanted a beer. | ||
| Jimidan |
Pioggia, Now come on, this bike is barely out of the box and it has run how many times in FX this year? Twice? And you are saying that "There's always an excuse for this bike, isn't there?" That is a gross exaggeration. Be fair, at least, even if you want to dog the brand...which is exactly what it sounds like you are doing. The 600 Suzuki that Steve ran in '04 was a well sorted out mature race bike that had hundreds...no thousands of hours of cumulative racing hours on it. The Buell is but an infant at this stage, so what if a few bugs have to be worked out? That is why they call them "bugs". Remember, that the two times McWilliams "the Ringer" rode this bike in competition, that is was a minor part malfunction that put him out of the race both times. Twice! Numero dos. The XBRR ran great at the Summit Point races this weekend with 3 different Buell riders taking a turn in various classes. This was the first time some had seen the bike, including Brian Bemisderfer's pit crew. No DNFs there, boss. This bike ran like a champion with bikes that were all much better sorted by riders who were very experienced on them bikes. Nobody knows if the gremlins will rear their head again at RA, because that is the way racing is, but it will not be because all of those involved aren't working hard to eliminate them. Your considerable insights and learned observations are always appreciated though. We need folks like you around here... jimidan | ||
| Cluckcluckpush |
it is what it is, sitting out rounds and running club races won't help you beat any japanese teams in FX. it's probably time HD should cut funding, and retire the team. it is an apple trying to compete with oranges......period. All they are doing is burning out important crew members, oiling racetracks, and annoying their riders. Blake can ban me for saying this too.. | ||
| M1combat |
I don't think he'll ban you for saying that but you're dead wrong... I think the crew members are passionate about what they're doing, they haven't oiled a single track and I haven't heard any complaints from riders... Cut funding? Are you serious? Who in their right mind would cut funding to a race effort that's JUST getting started? BTW... Sitting out rounds and running club races is EXACTLY what will help you beat the Japanese teams (or the american teams running Japanese bikes even...). You gotta work the bugs out. Don't tell me you think that the engineers at Buell are capable of engineering a perfect bike in the first shot... They're good, but I don't think ANYONE is that good... Get real... Quit now? That's probably just about the most absurd statement I've heard about Buell Racing since I started watching it... | ||
| Smoke |
all the Buell race teams that i've heard mentioned are dealer teams, not h-d factory teams. anyways, if there were factory Buells on the track they would be Buell factory teams. Buell would have to cut funding, not h-d and the 1st year would not be the time to do that. one things for sure, controversy gathers attention and there ain't no such thing as bad publicity. the more brands on the track, the better. if the xbrr becomes a competitive platform that wins a lot of races, then i would think that the ama will tinker with the rules to promote parity. see ya at the races. go Buell! Go Jake! Go Ben! tim | ||
| Jimidan |
Cluckcluckpush sez: "it is what it is, sitting out rounds and running club races won't help you beat any japanese teams in FX. it's probably time HD should cut funding, and retire the team. it is an apple trying to compete with oranges......period. All they are doing is burning out important crew members, oiling racetracks, and annoying their riders. Blake can ban me for saying this too.." That is complete BS. The XBRR already is capable of beating all but the Yammy Hauls full factory team...that is with the right rider. So after just two FX races, you think that they should call it and pull the plug? Nonsense! The top teams in CCS and ASRA are not just some members of a "club", rather they are privateers...big difference. Some are even factory satellite teams...but I guess you wouldn't know that since you have never been...huh? There are individuals who participate too, but there are individuals racing in AMAFX too. All track time for the XBRR is important to sort this machine out, and it will help it get faster and more reliable. There has been no oiling race tracks, BTW, and the riders last weekend were anything but annoyed. They loved this bike! And finally, FX is all about racing apples against oranges by design...duuhhh! Wake up and smell the race gas! Ban you? Why would they want to ban you? You provide some much needed comic relief with such preposterous statements. We need more folks on here like you... jimidan | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
M1combat sez: "they haven't oiled a single track" You must have missed this recent report: -------------------- While testing at Summit Point Raceway, the oil filter was blow off Hale’s Buell, causing an oil leak and a high-speed crash. “I’m real sore,” Hale told Roadracingworld.com. “I tumbled for a long time. I broke some bones in my right foot, and I bruised my ribs and my back on the right side.” Although his XB-RR has been repaired and he has also received another XB-RR -- the first one off the production line, Hale said he did not know if he would be able to race this weekend or not. -------------------- So I guess that's just another minor "bug"? The original announcement of the XB-RR and Erik's initial statements explaining the reason for the bike presented it as the turnkey ready-to-race answer for privateers who didn't want to take the time & expense to build a competitive FX bike from a starting point of a $8k streetbike. Remember those statements? He talked about how much work it is for a privateer to start with a street bike, acquire race parts, get the engine built, etc. The XB-RR was supposed to solve all that. But right now the FX grid is filled with privateers who did exactly that this spring: bought a GSXR or CBR, ordered up race parts, had the engines built, and where are they? They're finishing races, week in and week out, building points and gaining experience while fine tuning and tweaking their reliable racebikes (many of which I'd expect have less than $30k into them). Meanwhile the $30k turnkey special which was supposed to be a shortcut for those guys is floundering, and rather than being a realistic option for a privateer who wants to be competitive in FX it is only of interest to the people who value where a bike is made more than how good a racebike it is. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Jimidan sez: "it has run how many times in FX this year? Twice?" And why has it only run twice when there have been 4 rounds already? Because the thing's debut performance was so sorry that Buell chose to recall it and skip a couple rounds while trying to sort it out. So much for the ready-to-race concept. Then Jimidan sez: "The XBRR already is capable of beating all but the Yammy Hauls full factory team...that is with the right rider."  and then without a hint of irony: "You provide some much needed comic relief with such preposterous statements." Familiar with the pot and the kettle, Jimidan? I guess McWilliams & Crevier & Hale just aren't the right riders then. Because even with world class ringer McWilliams on it at Daytona it was barely running top-10 and never showed anything like a threat of running 3rd. So you tell me - who is this mythical "right rider" you believe will put the XB-RR on the 3rd step of the podium behind DiSalvo & Bostrom? Name him. (Message edited by pioggia_di_parata on June 03, 2006) | ||
| Mutation_racer |
anyone know is the race live today or not | ||
| Brucelee |
Using the logic of some here, you would kick your new wife out of the house after the second argument. Hmmmm. How many manufacturers have come new to racing and dominated from the opening race?? Bueller, Bueller? | ||
| Brucelee |
Anyone think parata has a point of view on this? Is he a SACBORG guy? They love to bash everything Buell. (Message edited by brucelee on June 03, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
RoadRacing World answered one of my questions. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=25972 Where's Hals? Where's Ciccotto? Isn't Hals located in Wisconsin? Seems to me they wouldn't have much in the way of traveling expences. I am starting to think that Richard Cronrath had it correct from the beginning, when he asked if we would rather see many riders and teams on a hit or miss schedule, or one or two teams competeing in every round. With hindsight I would of picked the latter. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Qualifying results: Crevier - 14th, 2:23.209 (5.2 seconds off pole) Estok - 18th, 2:25.733 | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Mutation_racer - no, the race will not be telecast live. It will be shown on SpeedTV on Tuesday, at the end of a six hour block of roadracing. The schedule for that block is: 250GP MotoGP AMA Superbike race 1 AMA Superbike race 2 AMA Supersport AMA FX and Superstock As the announcer man always says, "check local listings for times in your area." | ||
| Lorazepam |
Mr parata, I am guessing you may not be familiar with developing sophisticated equipment. I have a couple decades doing field service work. Sometimes everything goes right from the computer to the finished product. Most of the time it doesnt. You are looking at a newcomer trying to break into the old boys network that the Japanese have developed over the years. The process of developing just a team is difficult enough in its self. Being able to translate what the rider is telling you into tenths of a second is a learning process. Getting a new bike, engine, clutch, to work at the levels required to compete is not an easy task. Elite competition takes experience in every position, and valuable experience is being garnered this year. Privateers certainly have an uphill battle to go toe to toe with teams that have rented the track, recorded their suspension settings so they are dialed in or at least close when they get back. It would be nice if the Buell teams had a qualifying bike, a race bike, and a couple spares for each, like the factory teams. I wouldnt be suprised if Honda employs more people in their racing effort than Buell has total employees. I found the teams very hard working, and they seemed enthusiastic at what they were doing. I didnt see it on TV, I was at the track today. Give these guys a chance, they have just begun. | ||
| Jimidan |
Hi Parata, You are taking the "ready-to-race" concept out of context. The bikes racing right now are still prototypes going through the growing pains of development...and they are still damn good. The big difference in how Buell does its sorting and testing is that they don't do it on their private racetracks back in Japan, but rather right in public in front of God, fans and skeptics like yourself. The World needs skeptics, like yourself and me (yes, I am a skeptic, but just not about this bike. Regardless of the reasons, the bike still has only run twice in FX (not counting RA and I don't know what has happened there yet). But it ran like a trooper at Summit Point with privateers on board, even though it was not sorted out for just one rider. There was plenty of variation among the 3 that rode it there, like from 6-3 Brian to the two much 5' 8-9" smaller riders. My comment about the bike being capable to beat all but the Yammy Hauls (there's 3, count 'em) still stands. You can't discount the rider, and he will have to be a quality one to do it, because the competition certainly has them...so why shouldn't Buell? Plus, they will need a little luck...something that has been totally missing in the first two FX meets. That is a prognostication not a fact, any more than you saying it will not. I guess it come down to faith then. History will tell. Come back on in 6 months with your I-told-you-so's if it doesn't pan out. I will eat the egg on my face then...but not now, regardless of what you say. They are just words in the ether. That unpredictability really is the beauty of racing, don't you think? "...and then without a hint of irony: "You provide some much needed comic relief with such preposterous statements."" The real irony is that your statements are not preposterous because your opinions lack merit, as they are but opinions, uttered on a site designed for such. They are preposterous because of their extreme negativitiy...an obvious trolling expedition, as it were. For you to come onto a Buell enthusiast's site and play the smack-down game with the faithful is what is what is preposterous. I guess you find it fun in some sort of way...who really knows folks' true motivations for doing that...I guess you think its amusing. Let's push this button and watch 'em twitch...wheee! I like playing along as I've got the time, and the inclination. What you say is easily found on any number of Honda sites, or even on the Speedzilla Ducati site. Nuthin' new here boss. jmimdan | ||
| Jimidan |
Parata sez: "For reference, in 2004 Steve Crevier raced a GSXR600 in FX at Road America. He qualified 3rd with a time of 2:21.920 (3.1 seconds off pole) and then finished 5th in the race with a best lap time of 2:21.585 (2.3 seconds off the fastest lap of the race). As in all 2004 FX races, the bikes dominating the class that weekend were the factory Hondas of Duhamel and Zemke. So that gives us a pretty good idea of what Steve can do in FX at Road America: Given a decent non-factory bike he is a good enough rider to be at or near the front of the non-factory bikes, a couple seconds a lap behind the factory guys. Today in practice he was 11th fastest with a best lap time of 2:23.914 (5.0 seconds off the fastest lap of the session). Will the XB-RR be good enough to let him get results similar to what he got on that GSXR600? The next two days will tell." Just because Steve was good on one design of bike with completely different geometry, doesn't mean that he will be good on the Buell. Steve and other guys in AMA Superbike, Superstock, Supersport cut their teeth on bikes with the standard 55" wheelbase, 24 degree and 3.8" trail. They are having to relearn how to race on the Buell. McWilliams rode MotoGP bikes with similar geometry to the Buell, so it wasn't much of a stretch for him...or others like him. And we all know how developmentally challenged those guys are in the world of MotoGP racing. jimidan | ||
| Jima4media |
So, what was the deal with the black flag on Crevier's XBRR? Was it called for or was it a mistake? What caused the crash on lap 6? Jim | ||
| Anonymous |
Here is the deal with FX. Crevier was up to 6th place, but was black flagged for jumping the start. Why was the flag delayed? He actually started to go when someone else jumped, but grabbed the clutch and was pulling the bike backwards when the flag actually went. Although this caused him to actually get a worse start, the other teams were bitching at the AMA and made them black flag Steve. So Steve had to do a stop and go. He came out of the pits in 17th, and in one lap was back up to 12th. But he tossed it in turn one because he was pushing so hard. The crash and black flag were really disappointing, but Steve's ride was awesome to watch. Man, you should have seen him come through the field in the first few laps. It was so cool to see him outbrake and go around guys in the turns! | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Jimidan sez: "The big difference in how Buell does its sorting and testing is that they don't do it on their private racetracks back in Japan," At their own expense... "but rather right in public in front of God, fans and skeptics like yourself." Using customers who shelled out $30k for what they thought was a raceworthy bike but in reality is apparently a prototype still in development. Nice. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall at the dealer meeting where Buell introduced the XBRR, because at the end of that meeting all 50 were pre-sold. Do you think all those dealers who committed to spend $30k on these bikes were told during that meeting that they were signing up to buy an undeveloped untested prototype, or do you think they were told they were buying a turnkey race-ready bike as described in the initial press releases? I wonder how many are regretting their decision. In fact, it will be interesting to watch over the remainder of the year to see if the full 50 are really produced & bought & raced. "My comment about the bike being capable to beat all but the Yammy Hauls (there's 3, count 'em)..." Ok, I'll count 'em: 1) Jason DiSalvo 2) Eric Bostrom Looks like two to me. Or are you so confused about AMA racing that you think Jamie Hacking is racing his R6 in Formula Xtreme when he's actually racing it in Supersport? "...still stands." It certainly doesn't stand on results. And you never did name your mythical "right rider". So I guess if the XBRR never gets on the podium you can always fall back on the explanation that it simply never had the right rider. "That is a prognostication not a fact, any more than you saying it will not." I never said anything of the sort. I haven't made any predictions at all about the XBRR. I have commented on its performance so far as compared to Buell's own statements, and I asked the question "will it be good enough to let Crevier get results similar to what he got on the GSXR?". That question wasn't fully answered this weekend because of his crash, so we'll just have to wait and see how things go for the XBRR at the remaining rounds. (Message edited by pioggia_di_parata on June 04, 2006) | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Lorezepam sez: "It would be nice if the Buell teams had a qualifying bike, a race bike, and a couple spares for each, like the factory teams." You should really learn more about AMA racing instead of making up stuff like this - it just makes you look silly. The standard for a factory rider is an A bike and a B bike. The B bike is mostly used as a crash backup or a wet setup bike if the weather calls for one, and sometimes for comparing two setups if they're testing a new component or having trouble with something. They don't have special bikes for qualifying, and they certainly don't have 6 bikes each (Q bike plus a couple spares plus race bike plus a couple spares equals six). But just for the record, nobody is comparing the Buell teams to the factory teams. The Buell teams are being compared to privateer teams with similar funding and manpower (or even less -- since you were there at the races I'm sure you saw teams in the pits with nowhere near the resources of the Buell teams), and the Buell's results come up short in that comparison. Nice attempt at setting up and then knocking down a straw man though. "I found the teams very hard working, and they seemed enthusiastic at what they were doing." Absolutely! Anybody working on any team in the paddock is enthusiastic and working hard and (with the exception of a very few factory guys) underpaid or even unpaid. You'll get no argument from me on that. (Message edited by pioggia_di_parata on June 04, 2006) | ||
| Curtyd |
Bottom Line; XBRR is in it's FIRST YEAR of testing and development for roadracing. Big 4; Are in their 30th or so YEARs of R & D. Heck, GSXR'ers are 20 years old in just that model line. I hope they have it "right" by now. Let's see what happens | ||
| Jima4media |
Anonymous, Thanks for the answer. That explains a lot. Do you know if Buell XBRRs will be at Miller Motorsports Park later in the month or at Laguna Seca next month? Jim |
