| Author | Message | ||
     Nd_xb |
I've had my Firebolt for about a month. With the rain and work I've only been able to put about 150 miles on it. Only 2300 miles total on the bike. I changed the oil / primary and checked the tension. I CAN PUSH THE CHAIN DAMN NEAR TO THE TOP OF THE PRIMARY COVER! Were Talking like 1.25" or more. No wonder its slapping around down there. I tried to tighten it up and had no luck, in fact the stupid screw just spins in place and absolutely WILL NOT TIGHTEN. Do I need a new tensioner or am I missing something here??? | ||
| Jackbequick |
That adjuster is essentially a bolt with an Allen socket in the end. That goes through a threaded hole in the bottom of the primary cover and screwing the bolt in further should make the chain tighter. Are you saying you are turning the bolt with an Allen wrench and it does not go up into the primary case as you do that? That would seem to mean that the thread is stripped. Jack | ||
| Buellistic |
Adjust to 3/4 inch on the tight spot, cold, PERIOD !!! SHOE ASM. threads(primary chain adjuster) stripped ??? NEVER HEARD OF THIS HAPPENING ??? | ||
| Nd_xb |
Jackbequick, thats exactly what is happening. With the allen key inserted the adjuster just spins and spins. It goes nowhere. I think I'm going to pull it apart and look at it from the inside. | ||
| Jackbequick |
LaFayette, I was thinking maybe the primary cover is stripped where the adjuster goes through. That big locking nut sort of invites being overtightened. Chris, That does not sound good. I'd think it would be leaking if it was stripped. That adjuster has to be backed most or all the way off to remove and replace the primary cover. My adjuster, properly adjusted, has about 6 or 8 threads exposed below the lock nut. It has about twice that or so when backed all the way out. If that thread is stripped in the primary cover it must have been stripped when you got the bike. Maybe the dealer or the person you bought it from can help you on that. That thread would be hard to do a Heli-coil repair on because the cover is not that thick and the threads go all the way through. You may be able to get a Helicoil insert to stay in place if you degrease that good and put the insert in with the Loctite Green Bearing and Seal Retainer. If you do that, make sure the bottom of the insert is flush with the cover. Email Dave S. at Appleton about buying a new one, he gives us BadWeb folks a discount and is really good on service. Jack | ||
| Nd_xb |
Ok, took it apart and tried to remove the adjuster and the adjuster shoe, but it wont come out either. I've even slammed it a few times with a rubber mallet. I noticed when I turn the adjuster screw with the inside view both the washers on top and bottom of the metal plate that the screw goes through are turning. Not sure if one of them should be holding in place to allow the screw to thread further and further and as a result tighten the shoe and eventually the belt. This blows. Thanks for the help though, I'm going to keep beating on the screw, maybe I'll get it out. | ||
| Nd_xb |
Jack, have you used Helicoils before? I got the adjuster and the shoe out after a few pounds with a steel hammer and sure enough the threads on primary cover or almost completely smooth (striped to nothing). So that was the problem. The Helicoil got me thinking though. The Primary case is actually 3 times as thick where the adjusting bolt goes through, obviously to facilitate the threads, so if I could get the right coil I think that I will give it a try rather than buy a whole new primary case. I ask about the Helicoil though because I'm not sure which to order.... the adjuster bolt is 1/2" wide so should buy the coil in that width also, screw it in there (with the locktite) and see if that works? | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Chris, You've got nothing to lose. A helicoil kit will cost about $25 including the tap. You will most likely need a odd size bit to drill it out. You may also have to install 2 heli coils as one may not be long enough. You may want to install them with Loctite Red to help prevent backing out. Let the Red set up fully before reinstalling the tensioner. I don't think you will have problems with leaking as the lock nut on the bottom has a nylon insert for locking and sealing. Good luck! Brad | ||
| Nd_xb |
Brad / Jack , Which type of kit do you recommend, the "coarse" kit, or the "fine" kit. There is a coarse kit on ebay for $25, just like you said Brad. Or does coarse or fine even matter?? | ||
| Jackbequick |
Chris, It is normal for the nylon shoe and the plate it slides over to spin freely on the top of that bolt. The bolt raises and lowers it (when the thread in the cover is still there) but it does not turn. That goes in with the open side of the shoe towards the engine case. That adjuster is a standard 1/2"-13 TPI thread. The way the Helicoil works is that you tap the hole out with a special (larger) tap that is also 13 TPI. Then when you screw the insert in that will leave you with the 1/2"-13 TPI thread you need on the inside of the coil. If you have any bike garages or automotive speed shops around you may be able to find someone that already has the kit to do that for you. Then you'd just have to pay for the inserts and the labor. It's a five minute job for the most part. Like Brad says, use two shorter inserts if you can't get one long enough. If it is too long you have to cut it with an abrasive disk on a Dremel tool because the inserts are hardened. A little sticking up inside the cover is okay, but don't have it sticking out below the bottom of the primary cover. The elicoil inserts have a little tang sticking into the center that you use as a grip to screw them in. You can use a needle nose plier (gently) if you don't have the special tool for putting them in. You break the tang off after it is in, bend it gently a few times and it will break, don't deform or loosen the coil doing it. The Loctite Red will work, the Green Seal and Bearing retainer is just a little better for something permanent than the red. Degrease everything good before you put the inserts in and then give it time to set up. Lightly grease the adjuster bolt and don't put it in until the Loctite has set up. That is to make sure it does not stick. It sounds like some knucklehead saw that big locking nut, overtightened it, and destroyed the threads. If you don't have the newer metal primary cover gasket or yours look bad get one of those at any H-D shop. Ask for the new Sportster gasket, the metal one. If you don't have a service manual, post here when you get ready to put that back together and one of the guys that knows the XB's can give you the torque specs and stuff. Like Lafayette said, find the tight spot on the primary chain and adjust it for 3/4" of play (total, up and down). The chainplates are 3/8" high so when you push up hard on the chain with your finger tip, that is how much you want to see it move. Jack | ||
| Nd_xb |
Jack, What you just explained is exactly what I needed to hear!! Perfect. I have the service manual so as soon as I get ahold of the Helicoil I'll get drilling on the Primary case and let you know how it goes. THANKS FOR THE HELP! | ||
| Jackbequick |
You need the coarse kit, that is 13 threads per inch. The fine thread is 20 threads per inch and that won't work for you. Here are some hints on using the kit: http://www.toolsnextday.ltd.uk/Helicoil_Kits/helicoil_usage.htm The drill size for the 1/2"-13 kit is 17/32". That is only about 1/32" or .03125" larger than the original threaded hole would have been. Depending on the condition of the hole and the taper on the tap, you may be able to tap that out without drilling it first because you are working in a already somewhat oversized hole and in a softer material. Get a good Aluminum tapping lube (Tapmatic or Acculube for example). 1,1,1 Triclorathane will work if you still have any around, it has been pretty much outlawed and needs to be kept off the skin and used with good ventilation. If the tap will pick up the remnant of the old threads and start cutting, just cut 1/4 turn on so. Then stop and back the tap up 1/4 turn to cut the chips off. Then apply a little more lube and do that again. Keep doing that and not cutting more than 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time. If you let very much chip build up on the cutting edge, it increases the cutting load and does not give as clean a cut. If you can't get the tap started or the cutting forces (turning force on the tap) seem excessive, go ahead and drill it out. But using a drill that big, handheld and on an aluminum case, is an invitation to disaster of sorts. If you can get the cover clamped down in a good ridgid setup like a milling machine or drill press, using the drill is a good idea. but it might not be necessary even then. And don't consider turning the tap under power, turn it only by hand. Jack | ||
| Nd_xb |
Jack, despite all your help, I now need a new primary cover. I tried the Heli coil, threaded it, added threadlocker and put it all back together. I fired it up and let in run for about 2 minutes, got on my hands and knees to check the adjuster bolt and got sprayed with primary oil. The bolt came loose again and was flicking oil every other second or so from the vibration / leak / pressure or whatever else. Dissapointing to say the least. Anyway, I'm waiting for Dave at HD appleton to get back to me now, with the price for a whole new Primary cover. Thanks for the help anyway. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That makes no sense, but could be a pretty important data point for the tribal wisdom here.... did the heli coil strip out of the cover? | ||
| Jackbequick |
Sorry to hear that. And I'm with Reep on this one, I would have expected that repair to work and would be curious to know why it didn't. My M2 has a washer and nut for locking the adjuster and that all pulls up flush against a shallow counter bore in the cover. Is yours like that? The nut is called a sealing nut in the parts book but I don't remember if it has a sealing surface built into the nut. Jack | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Jack, Yes it does. The nut must be installed correctly or it will leak. Ther is a nylon indsert on one side of the nut. None of my Buell's have a washer on the adjusting bolt, just the nut. Brad | ||
| Jackbequick |
Thanks Bluzm2, I was thinking mine had a washer, I might be wrong. I thought I could see one there. At any rate it is stock with whatever it should have there. And no leaks. Jack | ||
| Nd_xb |
guys, it was the heli coil that came loose. I guess it just wasnt meant to be. Or maybe I screwed up with the tap. Either way I have new cover on the way that I'll make sure dosnt get stripped! | ||
| Jackbequick |
Okay, thanks for the follow up. Some aluminum castings are sort of granular or crumbly and it can be hard to tap a nice clean thread. Maybe that was it. Its nice to be able to save something like that but sometimes it just does not work out. Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
You can tell my "cobbler" nature... I am now thinking to myself... just install the heli coil, braze it in place, and retap right over the heli-coil to restore the threads.  Can you braze aluminum? I am guessing you could get some kind of rod that will do it. Sounds like a good case for the TimSerts (or whatever they are). I take broken stuff personally. I would keep messing with that primary cover until it is a pool of melted and ruined aluminum on the garage floor Help me... I am mechanically co-dependant! Somebody schedule an intervention before I come across a late 60's sportster in a bucket somewhere.... | ||
| Jackbequick |
Brazing aluminum is not practical, it is the basic incompatibility of ferrous and non-ferrous metals thing that is the primary issue. Most successful aluminum welding processes (TIG for example) involve focusing the heat to create a smallish puddle at the join point and then adding filler. Generally you don't want to melt more than about 1/2 the thickness on thinner materials, any more than that and it all melts, falls through, and runs away. I could visualize that being repaired by making a round, top hat shaped, repair piece out of aluminum with the hole for the adjuster bolt drilled and tapped through the center of it. I'd like to turn that on a lathe. The length above the "brim" would be the length of the original threaded hole or case thickness, the brim would be about 1/16" thick. Then you could bore or ream a smooth, close fitting, hole through the primary case and slip the "top hat" piece in from the outside of the case. Then find the resident TIG welding genius and have him TIG weld around the outside of the brim (outside the case) to attach the repair piece to the primary case. And maybe also run a weld bead around the joint between the repair piece and the case on the inside of the case. The weld on the inside would be a case of the resident TIG genius being able to melt a puddle on the repair insert (good T6 aluminum with a fine grain structure) that will lap over onto and fuse with the "crappy" granular aluminum of the cast case cover. This may or may not work and the welder will know as soon as he tries to do it. Some cast aluminum won't form puddles, instead it forms small balls of molten aluminum that won't stick to or fuse with anything else. If did this for myself and it worked it would be a repair that I'd take pride in and I would enjoy having avoided buying a new cover. But if you could find a person with the machines and knowledge to do all that, and it was going to be done on a business basis, I'd doubt that you could get it done for less than the cost of buying a new primary cover. Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool info! Thanks! What about something like a silver solder / braze? Would that be less reactive? | ||
| Reepicheep |
I googled it and found a very cool link... http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article37.htm Talks about soldering aluminum to ferrous metals... | ||
| Samc |
I'm with Reepicheep on this; there's gotta be a way, it's a personal affront! I would envision a top-hat deal, but made of mild steel and inserted from inside the primary, so the thin hat brim distributes the load on the inside of the primary; a mechanical solution, rather than a weld. It could be knurled on the outside and a light press fit into the primary; it doesn't need to be more than oil-tight--no load on the "hat" and hole. Easy to machine, better than the original design. A variation would start with a bronze bushing off-the-shelf at Lowes, ~7/16 ID, tapped to take the adjuster, and with the flange thinned a bit. Almost no machining there (could thin the flange with a file), and the bronze/steel interface would give a very smooth feel to the tensioner and last practically forever. There; just saved you the cost of a primary. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Pretty soon we will have them fabricating a 3d milling machine out of old inkjet printers and a dremel tool Actually, the bronze bushing ain't a bad idea either... just retap the primary (with no heli-coil) and thread in the bushing, then tap out the inside of the bushing to the right size and pitch. | ||
| Gowindward |
Castings are tough to weld or braze, and aluminum castings are even tougher. To keep a casting from cracking the whole casting needs to be heated up before welding/brazing. Then worked on then again heated and brought down from temp slowly. Aluminum is such a good heat conductor that it's tough to get it hot and keep it hot long enough to get your welding down on it before it cools down (and cracks). By the time you have all this down the powder coat/ paint is all burned off, and you are cursing when you crack the cover bolting it back on. An insert like suggested sounds like the only practical fix, if you own the machine tools, otherwise I would guess the new cover is a bargain compared to the labor cost involved. Oh and brazing is much like soldering in that the base metal is not melted. The brazing rod is a brass base material (non-ferrous), just like Aluminum (non-ferrous) so the whole non-ferrous/ ferrous metals thing is bunk.  (Message edited by gowindward on May 17, 2006) | ||
| Samc |
Pretty soon we will have them fabricating a 3d milling machine out of old inkjet printers and a dremel tool good idea! | ||
| Jackbequick |
Loren is right, that ferrous non-ferrous thing is bunk. I'm not sure what I meant to say there. But I've tried to solder and braze aluminum and the problem is to get the solder or brazing rod to "wet" or flow adhere to the surface of the aluminum and join the two metals. It is not easy to get that to happen. When I was gunsmithing, I bought special aluminum solders and messed with it quite bit in the process of trying to repair or customize firearms. And don't recall every being successful in getting two pieces of aluminum soldered together. But brazing, soft and hard soldering, silver soldering were all easy enough with the right cleaning, flux, enough heat, etc. And maybe some luck and practice too. I no longer have a lathe and milling machine in my garage as I did when I was gunsmithing and I miss them. Fixing that primary cover would have been easy. The distressing part of welding and brazing is when it does not work. Like when you think you are going to braze something and instead of seeing the rod flow and adhere to the two surfaces, it winds up dancing around on the surface in a molten ball, adhering to nothing, and then rolls off and lands on the floor. Jack | ||
| Gowindward |
Jack, I think what makes aluminum tough is that it's such a good heat conductor it's hard to get it to hold enough heat to get the brazing rod or solder to bond. That's why it's also tough to weld for beginners. | ||
| Road_thing |
J-B Weld... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I broke out the torch and played with aluminum last night. Yikes. I think it would be easier to solder butter. I'm with Road_thing now. | ||
| Bomber |
soldering/brazing alum IS tough -- I can get it rigfht 2 times outa five (after a long far of practicing) | ||
| Ap_sand |
Source for hand working/brazing/welding aluminum (and other metals). http://www.tinmantech.com/index.php | ||
| Jackbequick |
There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in metalworking. Some of the processes like hardening and annealing have been used with little change almost since the dawn of mankind. I was building a device today for training red squirrels not to eat out of the bird feeder and had to bend some small aluminum rod. The first one broke at the bend because it was brittle, I annealed it with a propane torch and it bent beautifully. I now have two wires running across the inside of the bird feeder that are connected to the module from a dog training collar hanging from the bottom of the feeder. And I have a RF remote control that will cause the module sound a warning beep or administer a mile shock. Now when when we look out and see a red squirrel in the feeder and all the chickadees, finches, and nuthatches sitting around looking glum, we press the button on the remote control. And the squirrel leaves. Quickly. It is fun to watch too. I checked specs, it is non lethal for small animals and I even tested it on myself. Nice low frequency shock, mildly stimulating. Red squirrels are cute. But little more than cute rats. The defecate and urinate while they are eating, disgusting! Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
Wheee! Remote control squirrell launcher. Sounds like endless entertainment |
